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How Do You Fight Clan Mechs With Inner Sphere Technology?


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#21 Devillin

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostSteven Dixon, on 08 December 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

When I play IS against Clans I usually try to bring Kia Allard Liao with me, for some reason we usually win :).



It depends on which version of Kai you have with you. The early, no nonsense Kai Allard Liao was death on a battle field. The later version of him was a {Richard Cameron} to have on your team, because you didn't know what kind of idiotic way he was going to hamstring himself and let the rest of your team down. The only character in the Battletech universe to start at Elite, go up to Death, then drop down to Regular in the later stages of his life.

The guy you want is Victor Steiner-Davion. He is a consistently Elite pilot who's battleplans always seem to work in the end. He's the Hannibal Smith of Battletech. Just don't get him to do *anything* political.

#22 Elyam

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

Unless you're playing against someone very accomplished at it, most BT fights I've been in, Clan or not, come down to how well you play the core game of stacking as many modifiers in your favor and against your opponent's in every action taken with each unit. If you can add to that some sound tactics that lure and deceive your opponent while protecting your own forces, your in an excellent position to win. Part of this, certainly, is picking units that fit your style but also take the best advantage of BT modifiers. Though research is foundational, nothing beats experience.

It never ceases to amaze me though how many players accomplished at military-sim or other forms of tactical and strategic gaming are ready with great maneuvers and plans and combined forces, and really know their stuff...but get defeated by not taking absolute advantage of BT's particular modifiers for movement, heat, targeting, etc.

Of course, if you're up against someone who knows BT at an elite level...then you certainly need all of the advice in this thread and then some.

#23 dal10

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:38 AM

this is why i don't run 3/5s as a rule. that + 2 makes a big difference. only mech i will run that is below a 4/6 is the urbanmech and that is just because it is really really good at what it does.

#24 Ryoken

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:38 AM

If you fight clans in the Tabletop the key to victory is loads of fast lights and medium mechs with pulse lasers.

Done.

Yet fighting clans in MWO might also be the same denying their long range bonus and better targeting systems including the pilot, or may not, we will see how to adapt.

#25 SpiralFace

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:23 AM

Use BV 2.0 without size adjustment mods. Anything else is going to need arbitrary "stupid" rules like honor to compensate for their perks. BV makes them accountable for their Min / maxed designs. So good forces are those that mix units together, not just max out loadouts that would normally see their BV skyrocket.

"Dealing" with clans is not as hard as people make it out to be when it comes to true BG balance.

Clan players have to go in rides that are super expensive and THEN have to upgrade their pilots to 3/4 pilots if they are really playing them. (The base clan values.)

These values inflate the costs of the mech by 30% on top of the premium you pay on the mech itself.

Because of this, clans are almost always placed on the back foot when it comes to things like Force Size, Armor, Drop Weight, and overall weapon strength. (After BV is taken into concern, the IS force should have more actual damage potential across the entire force.

The clans only advantages are better individual pieces, faster mechs, more punchy weapons, and individually more bang for your buck.

Go ahead and try and make a 10k Clan force, and then see what you can do with IS units. Remember though that you don't have to "exclusively" play mechs from 3050 as an IS unit. You can still use 3025 mechs to GREAT effect.

I already made this comparison in another thread, but an IS Awesome AWS-8Q comes in around 1600 points. The Clan Adder, (Puma) has the same "damage profile" as the awesome with 2 ER PPC's, but comes in at over 2000 points. Nearly 400 points more then the awesome. And that is BEFORE you take into acount that a clan pilot is going to run you an extra 30% on the mech.

So in essence, and entire lance of Awesomes with regular pilots, will cost you the same BV as 2 35 ton mechs with Clan pilots in them.

Its easy enough to see that the clans have an uphill battle in that scenario. But that is where its actually CHALLENGING to be a clan player in TT. They are a finesse army because you are ALWAYS going to be starting with a smaller force, and a larger opponent.

The best thing IS players can do is maneuver and close the distance as fast and safely as you can to bring your full weapons to bear.

Normally, and IS force will usually out number a clan force about 2-3 to one, and out weigh them by about 3 or 4 times the amount of the clan force.

There is strength in numbers for the IS, but it comes down to strategy. You don't want to ball up into a wolf pack because it makes you easier to zone and pick appart at range, but nor do you want to fan out so much that you become isolated for the clan players to pick you off one on one (something they are VERY good at.)

#26 Will9761

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 12:18 PM

I would fight the clans with honor, but it depends on how the Clanner acts. Different Clans have different views on honor so they will have a mindset when it come to zellbringen and trials. Keep in mind that how they act is depends on there honor level, l so think of each honor level like these attitudes:

Honor Levels:
  • Level 1: "I don't think you'll cheat, so I accept your challenge."
  • Level 2: "I'll be fair, but if your screw me over, you'll regret it."
  • Level 3: "I don't have to play by your rules."
  • Level 4:"No way, surat!"


#27 dal10

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:41 PM

if you REALLY want to screw with them. run demolishers and srm infantry in a city map. not even a daishi can last long vs multiple demolishers.

#28 PaintedWolf

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Postdal10, on 10 December 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

if you REALLY want to screw with them. run demolishers and srm infantry in a city map. not even a daishi can last long vs multiple demolishers.


Elementals.

"Swarm attacks on vehicles are much easier to pull off and vehicles don't have anyway to dislodge attacking battle armor. Go nuts."

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 December 2013 - 08:12 PM.


#29 PaintedWolf

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:03 PM

To reply to OP: Posted Image

#30 dal10

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 10 December 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:


Elementals.

"Swarm attacks on vehicles are much easier to pull off and vehicles don't have anyway to dislodge attacking battle armor. Go nuts."

and that is what the srm infantry are for.

though i would recommend running through buildings.

your elementals wouldn't get through the armor fast enough to avoid getting hosed with srms. and considering i can get a platoon of srm infantry for EACH elemental. yeah.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vibrokatana

Edited by dal10, 10 December 2013 - 08:31 PM.


#31 GumbyC2C

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:15 PM

physical attacks

Use Mechs with hand actuators and grab a tree at the first opportunity. Bring that Louisville Slugger down on their heads.
Grab
Bash
Grab
Bash
Repeat until no more are left.

#32 PaintedWolf

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:08 AM

Superior numbers. Unless the Clan player is really dumb, he can out-range you and wear you down. You need superior numbers or you need to control the terrain. You do not want to commit atrocities, they have warships, that is stupid. Then again, against Reavers, I don't know.

#33 BSK

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:21 PM

In the game they could balance it by forcing the Batchall, once a Clanner hits an enemy Mech he has to kill him or any damage to other enemies will drastically reduce his credits after the battle ..

#34 Skylarr

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

View PostBSK, on 14 December 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

In the game they could balance it by forcing the Batchall, once a Clanner hits an enemy Mech he has to kill him or any damage to other enemies will drastically reduce his credits after the battle ..


The Thread Creator is talking about how to deal with the Clan when playing TT BattleTech.

#35 Outlaw

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:39 AM

Use of specialized munitions, particularly Thunders and other area denial weapon systems to force the opponent to fight on your terms, also judicious use of Smoke rounds from off map artillery also helps a great deal to close the gap and negate the Clan's superior range by blocking LoS.

#36 Stormwolf

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:21 AM

Here's some advice from a long time Clan player:

1. BV balancing, you should try to get higher BV then your opposing Clan player, but don't take it too far.
2. Field cheaper medium designs in large numbers, the sheer power of numbers will always be on your side
3. Don't be afraid to field non-mech forces, most notably fast designs like the Savannah Master can beef up your army
4. IS assaults will usually cost less BV then Clan heavies. Clan players who go for Timber Wolves, Warhawks and Dire Wolves will rack up quite a bit of BV.
5. Many Clan mechs tend to overheat far faster then their IS counterparts, they can't maintain full alpha's all the time. Use this knowledge to know when to close in on your enemy (negate the range advantage without taking too much damage).
6. You can easily abuse zellbrigen if the Clan player doesn't know how to use them properly.
7. Use cheap level 1 designs for meatshields, many of them will die. The lack of XL engines here will ensure that they will last longer.
8. Use more advanced level 2 designs to follow up on the level 1 designs to do the real damage
9. When available, make use of C3. Long range fighters will become far more useful this way.
10. Clan mechs are not invincible, many unexperienced Clan players tend to overestimate the abilities of their mechs.

#37 Vanguard319

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:45 AM

Found this on Youtube awhile ago, I admittedly have no real experience playing the TT game, but I figured the vets could glean something from the match, seeing as it's a Jade Falcon vs DC+FWL combined arms force.



#38 Slepnir

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:03 AM

As somebody who has been playing TT since 1987 when I was in high school, and still plays on a regular basis, balancing clans VS IS is actually quite easy. To understand how easy it is one must first understand that the TT game has a built in balance system in the critical hit mechanic. it doesn't matter how awesome your pilot is or how big your guns are. if you --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #1 take 12 or more points of damage to the head #2. take 10-11damage to the head and then roll a critical hit location 3 #3 multiple pilot hits causing unconsciousness or death from ammo explosions, gauss rifle feedback, getting shot in the face, falling damage #4 taking 3 or more engine crits in side or center torso.#5 taking 2 gyro hits(technically you can still prop on one arm and fire all your other weapons but your a sitting duck), #6 overheat or take damage that causes an ammo explosion and you have no case or XL engines etc... all of these thing render your mech destroyed or out of the game in most cases making things like battle values, tonnage matching etc... a mute point..............................................................................................................................................................So how does one match up clanners who have better gunnery skill and better weapons?............ You can go down the road of zellbrigan, but realistically the IS never follows it and the moment you violate it the battle turns into a free for all. the true balance mechanic is simple-numbers. the IS has them and the clans do not. typically from my years of experience 1 clan star of 5 mechs is an equal opponent to 2 inner sphere lances of 4.the battle is usually hard fought and can go either way.

#39 Skylarr

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:14 PM

IS Forces must use Zellbringen to their advantage. There is a fine line that you can walk. Just be careful.

Quote

HONOR LEVELS
Clan honor codes fall into four categories, each dealing with a different part of combat: batchall, zellbrigen, physical attacks and retreat. Because the batchall (bidding) takes place before the scenario begins, guidelines for its use appear on p. 266. Within each of the other three categories, a number from 1 to 4 represents the level of commitment to Clan honor. Honor Level 1 means strict conformity to the Clan codes; Level 2 and 3 require conformity only under certain circumstances; and Level 4 throws Clan honor out the airlock.

Normally, a fighting force’s overall commitment to Clan honor is rated at Level 1, 2, 3 or 4. However, scenarios may include more than one honor level. For example, Honor Level 1 may apply to physical attacks and retreat, while Honor Level 2 applies to zellbrigen. Each honor level is determined by the circumstances of the scenario and the particular Clan fighting in it; see Clan Honor Interpretation, below.

Clan dueling rules and restrictions on physical attacks apply only to enemy ’Mechs. Clan MechWarriors may attack vehicles and unarmored infantry targets without reference to Clan honor. Likewise, Clan unarmored infantry and vehicles need not follow the rules of engagement. Battle armor and ProtoMechs follow the code of zellbrigen, with each Point considered a single unit for dueling purposes.

Clan Honor Interpretation
While players may assign whatever honor levels they deem appropriate for a given scenario, the following material provides a guideline for the honor levels to which a given Clan will default in a scenario.

The Clan Honor Interpretation Table gives a general idea of how each Clan interprets zellbrigen. The table shows two different time periods. Pre-Invasion describes the prevalent interpretation prior to the start of Operation Revival (the invasion of the Inner Sphere) in 3049; Post-Invasion reflects each Clan’s view after the Battle of Tukayyid in 3052. During the Inner Sphere invasion (and subsequent events up through the Refusal War), each Invading Clan and many Home Clans experienced an ideological shift that caused changes in their view of zellbrigen. Depending on the time frame in which a given scenario is run, players can use the table as a guide to determine what Clan honor levels are in eff ect before game play begins.

The table gives three different levels of interpretation. A strict interpretation means that the Clan’s warriors generally follow zellbrigen against almost all opponents (except those considered extremely dishonorable, such as bandits and pirates, or against a long-hated enemy). An opportunistic interpretation means that the warriors follow zellbrigen unless mitigating circumstances dictate otherwise (they are outnumbered/outgunned, they think they can get away with it, and so on). Clans following a liberal interpretation use zellbrigen only against other Clans, and then only if they have the advantage.

ZELLBRIGEN
Under the rules for ritual dueling, or zellbrigen, Clan players must declare a target for each of their dueling ’Mechs. A typical declaration might sound something like, “I am MechWarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orion adorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn manner, let no one interfere!”

During a duel, no other Clan warrior may attack either of the dueling ’Mechs. If a third unit interferes with a duel, the dueling Clan warrior may attack the interfering unit, provided that another Clan ’Mech has not already challenged the interloper to a duel. A duel ends when one combatant is destroyed, disabled or retreats from the battlefield.

At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling regardless of his opponent’s actions.

At Honor Level 2, the Clan warrior follows the rules of dueling until the Inner Sphere side takes an action that violates the Clan honor codes (a third party interfering, a unit involved in one duel firing on a ’Mech involved in another duel, and so on). If this happens, the duel immediately degenerates into a free-forall. During the Weapon Attack Phase, if a player declares that his unit will fi re on a target already involved in a duel, any Clan player whose declaration of zellbrigen follows the Inner sphere player’s declaration of a “dishonorable attack” may attack that Inner Sphere ’Mech without regard for honor rules. Only the violator may be attacked in this way.

At Honor Level 3, any infringement of Clan honor in the dueling rules renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void, leaving the Clan ’Mechs free to attack any enemy unit without restraint for the remainder of the game.

At Honor Level 4, dueling rules do not apply.

Using zellbrigen in a game requires a certain degree of cooperation between players. A crafty Inner sphere player can exploit the rules of engagement to deny the Clan player any targets. Not only is this grossly unfair, but it is also inaccurate in terms of the BattleTech universe (plus, it’s not much fun for the Clan player).

Finally, the Clan player should not be expected to adhere to the rules of engagement when it would be foolish to do so, as in the
following example:

You are playing the Clans in a scenario with Honor Level 1. You have one Daishi and your opponent has four ’Mechs: a Banshee, an Orion, an Atlas and a Spider. The Spider challenges the Daishi to a duel, which the Daishi accepts. The Spider then uses its superior movement rate to hide behind hills and heavy woods so that the Daishi never gets line of sight to it. Meanwhile, the other three members of the Spider’s lance pound the Daishi to dust. The Daishi cannot retaliate because its player must adhere to Clan honor, which in this case means he can only attack the ’Mech that challenged him to a duel. He vainly attempts to chase the Spider, while “off -limits” enemies destroy his BattleMech.

Requiring the Daishi in this example to strictly obey the rules of engagement means that the Clan player must sit back and allow his unit to be destroyed. To give players some options in such situations, use the following guidelines to adjudicate the use of zellbrigen in game play.

1. Making the Challenge: One of the most important parts of a duel is the challenge. This takes place during the Weapon Attack Phase, when attacks are declared. When a Clan unit declares an attack on a unit that it has not attacked before, it is effectively announcing its intention to duel—the Clan player should verbally issue his challenge at this time. Dueling makes Initiative even more important, as Initiative also determines the order of attack declaration and challenges.

If the Inner Sphere side outnumbers the Clan side, it is considered bold (but acceptable) for a single Clan ’Mech to challenge more than one opponent at the same time. All of a single ’Mech’s opponents are considered part of the same duel and may fi re on the lone challenger. However, at least one target must be left for each ’Mech on the Clan side (this tradition does not apply to non-’Mech Clan units). In fact, Clan MechWarriors greedy for battlefi eld glory may force their own armored vehicles, infantry units or even Elementals out of combat in this way.

Though a single Clan ’Mech may challenge more than one Inner sphere ’Mech, additional Inner Sphere ’Mechs cannot invite themselves into an onging duel even if the Clans outnumber their side. Such an action is a breach of zellbrigen.

2. Refusing a Challenge: A Clan warrior need not accept a challenge issued by an Inner Sphere warrior, especially if he suspects the challenge is a ploy to abuse zellbrigen and achieve victory through deceit. As a general rule, a Clan warrior can refuse a challenge from a ’Mech of a diff erent weight class than his own, as long as he issues a challenge against another Inner Sphere ’Mech instead.

Also, though Inner Sphere warriors are not expected to accept or refuse challenges, the Inner Sphere side must abide by Clan honor when Honor Levels 2 or 3 are in effect or else risk touching off a melee. In these cases, the Inner Sphere player can refuse challenges from Clan ’Mechs outside the challenged ’Mech’s weight class as long as an alternate challenge is made.

Finally, any challenge must be accepted if no alternate targets are in play.

3. Declaring a Duel Void: Certain situations may render a duel void, even if strict adherence to the rules of engagement (Honor Level 1) is in force. In these cases the judgment of the players must prevail; however, the gamemaster can use the following simple penalty system to judge these situations. The penalty system is intended to enforce the idea that dueling ’Mechs must actively fi ght one another for the duel to be valid.

Because Clan warriors call people without honor dezgra, the penalties are referred to as dezgra points.

Each of the infractions listed below earns the violator a dezgra point, unless the violator’s opponent declines the penalty (which he might do if he decides that the action was tactically appropriate). If a dueling ’Mech accumulates 3 dezgra points, it is clear that the duel is dishonorable, and so it becomes void in the End Phase of the turn in which the third point was earned. No dueling ’Mech can earn more than 1 dezgra point per End Phase.

If a dueling unit intentionally moves out of its opponent’s line of sight, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.

If a dueling unit has line of sight to its opponent but intentionally fails to fi re at the enemy, the unit earns 1 dezgra point. This guideline assumes that at least one shot is possible, meaning that the enemy unit is within the firing arc and range of the weapon being fired.

If a dueling unit moves out of fi ring range of all its weapons, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.

If the unit earns no dezgra points in a turn, it may remove 1 dezgra point in the End Phase of that turn. A unit can not, however, reduce its dezgra points to zero in this way.

Once a unit has accumulated 3 dezgra points, any Clan unit may freely fire on it for the remainder of the scenario without violating the dueling rules.

Physical Attacks
Unlike dueling, the Clans’ dislike of physical attacks in ’Mech combat is an informal, if widespread, custom. No explanation is yet known for this distaste, though some experts suspect that Nicholas Kerensky chose to encourage a long-range fighting style among the Clans.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never makes physical attacks in ’Mech combat.

At Honor Level 2, a Clan warrior may make a physical attack only if an enemy unit makes one first. During the Physical Attack Phase, if the Inner Sphere player declares a physical attack, any Clan unit whose declaration follows that violation of Clan honor may freely engage that ’Mech in physical combat.

At Honor Level 3, a single physical attack by an Inner Sphere ’Mech allows all Clan warriors to retaliate in kind against all enemy units for the remainder of the game.

At Honor Level 4, the taboo against physical attacks no longer applies.

Retreat
Clan MechWarriors despise their Inner Sphere counterparts because they consider Inner Sphere armies dishonorable warriors fi ghting in inferior ’Mechs. Therefore, Clan warriors consider retreating from Inner Sphere opponents a disgrace almost beyond redemption. When allowed to choose whether or not to fl ee a losing battle, many Clan warriors prefer to fight to the death.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never retreats.

At Honor Level 2, Clan warriors may retreat from enemy ’Mechs that are using advanced technology, but never from ’Mechs, vehicles or infantry units using 3025 (introductory) technology.

At Honor Level 3, Clan warriors may retreat from any vintage of enemy ’Mech, but will not retreat from vehicles or infantry units.

At Honor Level 4, Clan warriors may retreat at will.

excerpt from Time Of War pages 273 thru 275

Edited by Skylarr, 15 December 2013 - 02:16 PM.


#40 Sharp Spikes

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

One needs to compose his force from superior numbers of (BV-cheap) fast mediums/heavies which have low risk of ammo explosion. In game, use terrain (woods/water/smoke/all sorts of partial cover) to get close to clanners, then charge, punch, kick and club them to death. Works especially well against Honor Level 1 opponent, though it is hard to find one stupid honorable enough to adhere to HL1.





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