118 replies to this topic

[Kenyon Burguess]

no one seems to be having seizures from all the autocannon induced screen shaking, so just turn up the shake on jumpjets again.

[Adiuvo]

Greyboots, on 01 December 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

No and no.

And no again. Our counters to those metas are OUR competitive edge and I'd have to be some sort of rube to hand them over. I can be argumentative, pigheaded and stubborn but I'm not daft.

The only point to me outlying that stuff was to show I had a deeper understanding than you intimated. No more and no less.

At any rate, let's agree to part ways and let it lie before the devs start thinking about editing our posts or locking the thread. Sound like a good idea? Does to me.

You haven't given any indication to what team you are on, and even if you did Steel Jags is the top competitive team in the current environment. The majority of teams that can go toe to toe with them either aren't playing competitively right now or aren't playing the game anymore. In short, SJR is the best.

If you have some magical build/strategy then evidently it hasn't been tested in any of the major comps, otherwise SJR would not be in the position they are now nor would any of the other top teams.

What I think actually happened is that you ran this specific strat in random 12mans, went up against some terrible team that was using typical comp builds, wiped them, then assumed that your strat did well because it counters comp builds rather than that the enemy was just bad.

Edited by Adiuvo, 01 December 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Mystere]

Geist Null, on 01 December 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

no one seems to be having seizures from all the autocannon induced screen shaking, so just turn up the shake on jumpjets again.

Actually they are not the same, from my POV anyway. The shake caused by the JJs caused me to almost regurgitate my last meal. I get no such symptoms from the shake induced by ACs or missiles.

Edited by Mystere, 01 December 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Zerberoff]

omegagun, on 29 November 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Its all you can do in this game atm and NERFING the gauss has not stopped it.
The PPC should have had the charge...Return Gauss mechanic.

*snip*

So... PPC poptart killed you and the only answer for you is to bring back Gauss poptarts? what a brilliant tactican!

[1Sascha]

Jump - PPC - Jump - PPC... really?

You forgot to add an important bit to that description, namely "overheat and shutdown".
I run very few PPC-based builds these days. But the ones I do have (like my Thunderbolt SS with 2xPPC and 1xERPPC) will overheat *very* quickly even on the coldest of maps.

And besides: What is it with people and pop-tarting? Just for the record: I hardly ever pop-tart.

I know it can be annoying if done well, but to tell the truth, I hardly ever see it in the game. And I see it even less often done *well*.

But then again: I probably shouldn't wonder why people are complaining about a totally viable tactic that'll give the shooter a minimum window of exposure to enemy fire. After all: We're talking about a game where players will complain about their teammates trying to fight from cover, calling them "campers", "cowards" and all sorts of {Scrap}.


S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 02 December 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Daemir]

Mystere, on 01 December 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Has anyone tried organizing a 12-man team with each player carrying both an artillery and air strike module? I heard it works wonders. That's a potential of 9600 damage right there.



Hold a second! Bombardment can work both ways. As such, do you mean to tell me that no one has been able to use that 9600 damage potential against poptart teams? Really?

Of course it works both ways, but the snipers can be spread out while popping over cover to shoot at you. If you add enough jumpjets (rare on the HGNs or 3Ds though), you can jump over the strike and be unaffected even. It's a different thing when the brawler team starts pushing forward, as they will clump up to a degree just because there isn't infinite space to run around quickly enough. There's usually some form of choke or narrow point the poptart team will force any larger force to go through to get to them, and when you got a brawling team push through that in a line, well...that's when you score those 500 dmg air strikes per player.

[Mystere]

Erish II, on 02 December 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Of course it works both ways, but the snipers can be spread out while popping over cover to shoot at you. If you add enough jumpjets (rare on the HGNs or 3Ds though), you can jump over the strike and be unaffected even. It's a different thing when the brawler team starts pushing forward, as they will clump up to a degree just because there isn't infinite space to run around quickly enough. There's usually some form of choke or narrow point the poptart team will force any larger force to go through to get to them, and when you got a brawling team push through that in a line, well...that's when you score those 500 dmg air strikes per player.

The point of the bombardment is not to damage the poptarts. It is to force them to move or jump and risk exposure and counter fire. Damaging them is just a bonus.

I would also think having smoke rounds would be a great feature request that does not require directly nerfing anything.

Edited by Mystere, 02 December 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

I think jumpjet recharge could be dropped by 25 to 50 percent or it should be a function of the # of jumpjets. I also think JJ thrust should scale so that trimming JJs really really hurts, depending on the mech. Some mechs can jumpsnipe with 1 JJ and that is just dumb.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 02 December 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Mystere]

Kin3ticX, on 02 December 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I think jumpjet recharge could be dropped by 25 to 50 percent or it should be a function of the # of jumpjets. I also think JJ thrust should scale so that trimming JJs really really hurts, depending on the mech. Some mechs can jumpsnipe with 1 JJ and that is just dumb.

Although I have no issue with your general suggestion, I fully expect the poptart QQ to never end until the maneuver is absolutely impossible to do (i.e. totally removed from the game). This is simply because of the "I was killed by XXX, please nerf XXX" mentality prevalent in this and every online PVP game I have ever played.

By the way, once DFA is finally implemented, I fully expect the ensuing QQ to be no less than epic.

[Tombstoner]

Mystere, on 02 December 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Although I have no issue with your general suggestion, I fully expect the poptart QQ to never end until the maneuver is absolutely impossible to do (i.e. totally removed from the game). This is simply because of the "I was killed by XXX, please nerf XXX" mentality prevalent in this and every online PVP game I have ever played.

By the way, once DFA is finally implemented, I fully expect the ensuing QQ to be no less than epic.

I find it odd that people are ok with screen shake when all it does is turn a skill based shot complicated by jumping into one that's really just a RNG, this forces players to close and there by the shake is reduced to just the torso areas nullifying the nerf and letting jump sniping work at full strength.... as it should.

Verry odd that RNG is reviled for grouped weapons but ok for jump sniping.

[Mystere]

Tombstoner, on 02 December 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I find it odd that people are ok with screen shake when all it does is turn a skill based shot complicated by jumping into one that's really just a RNG, this forces players to close and there by the shake is reduced to just the torso areas nullifying the nerf and letting jump sniping work at full strength.... as it should.

Verry odd that RNG is reviled for grouped weapons but ok for jump sniping.

Well, truth be told, I did advise PGI to replace their original screen shake with a non-random oscillation equation. Whether they listened or not I do not know.

[SniperCon]

The idea of giant robots boosting off the ground in flumes of fire, twisting mid air, and unleashing bolts of lightning at enemy positions is ... pretty cool. It would even be even cooler if it was situational and used a few times a game instead of 10 times a minute.

It's like headshots. The idea of putting an AC20 in someone's cockpit is cool, but it would be horrid if half the kills were headshots.

Keep jump sniping, headshots, DFA, knockdowns and other cool clever tactics in the game, but balance it through moderation by making them situational instead of always advantageous.

[Joseph Mallan]

SniperCon, I have taken advantage of a few Shut down Mechs in my Victor (no JJs) just stop in front of them long enough to line up a head shot, BOOM, and move on. Forsaking such an opportunity is just silly.

[SniperCon]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 December 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

SniperCon, I have taken advantage of a few Shut down Mechs in my Victor (no JJs) just stop in front of them long enough to line up a head shot, BOOM, and move on. Forsaking such an opportunity is just silly.

Exactly. Situational. Awesome. Balanced.

[Joseph Mallan]

SniperCon, on 02 December 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Exactly. Situational. Awesome. Balanced.

Not if you were the poor Blackjack, Awesome or Phract Pilots I wasted this weekend!

[Ghost_19Hz]

dude get with it, its AC/20 - jump - AC/20 - jump

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Estonniel, on 01 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

What if the use of JJ's would generate heat in general + having a longer fuel reload time. ppl can still snipe jump. but limits the amount of times they can. and as well be careful about it.

ive checked a JJ mech at a buddy of mine who simply doesnt use em. and found that yes JJ and shooting midair is just fine. but the fuel reloading seems extreemly fast. after you flew up and dropped back. it should be like 45 seconds or so + / - before atempting a other jump. and also during the jump heat should buildup depending on how long / far / how many JJ's you use.

but even so, shooting midair should still be possible if you ask me.

in mwo the fast JJ recharge is to compensate for the fact that JJ in MWO are only about 1/4 as powerful as they should be. in TT the right light could practically fly 300M. and there were even mechs that did fly (LAMs) in TT.

there is no mech in this game that can accomplish that. in TT a light (or almost any mech) could effectively climb 3 levels easily with enough JJ.
this is also impossible in this game, only the smallest lights can climb 3 levels all other mechs. no assault heavy or medium can climb higher then 2 levels at a time.

3 levels would be for example in the canyon map, JJ from the floor (lowest level) to the top of one of the rocky crags. the canyon itself is 2 levels high, the tallest rocks are 4 levels (the Theta capture point in conquest on canyon, its rocks are about level 4 at the top).

so see if any mech is capable of going from the canyon floor to the top of the level 4 rocks. in TT it only requires enough JJ. in this game it requires a specific mech, usually the spider or jenner.

lets put it this way too, if JJ worked in mwo like they did in TT spiders would easily climb that sheer cliff in frozen city, the big one between the bases and run around with impunity.

this is why JJ are less powerful but recharge much faster then in TT.

i for one do want JJ that let you climb and actually get to places (level 4 or 5), but might take up to a minute or 2 to fully recharge.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

The problem is not directly the weapons although in some cases it is, see SRM hit reg and damage.

But PGI's implementation of restrictions, Ghost heat effects what you boat to do competitive damage massively.
Lasers being DoT based removes them from a competitive aspect due to increased exposure times.
Gauss Rifles silly charge up time making it cumbersome instead of increasing the reload time to simulate charge up without dumb mechanic attached.

With all PGI's "mechanics" and poor implementation (SRM's), the group of viable weapons is excessively slim that leads to the current meta.

You don't take what's inferior if you want to win.
And as we've seen with all these added mechanics all you do is shift the problem instead of actually fixing it.

LRM's were OP
PPC's were Op
JJ were OP
SRM were OP
AC 20 were OP
Dual Gauss were OP
Medium Laser were OP
UAC 5 were OP

Dumb mechanics = Bad Balance.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

DV McKenna, on 16 December 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

The problem is not directly the weapons although in some cases it is, see SRM hit reg and damage.

But PGI's implementation of restrictions, Ghost heat effects what you boat to do competitive damage massively.
Lasers being DoT based removes them from a competitive aspect due to increased exposure times.
Gauss Rifles silly charge up time making it cumbersome instead of increasing the reload time to simulate charge up without dumb mechanic attached.

With all PGI's "mechanics" and poor implementation (SRM's), the group of viable weapons is excessively slim that leads to the current meta.

You don't take what's inferior if you want to win.
And as we've seen with all these added mechanics all you do is shift the problem instead of actually fixing it.

LRM's were OP
PPC's were Op
JJ were OP
SRM were OP
AC 20 were OP
Dual Gauss were OP
Medium Laser were OP
UAC 5 were OP

Dumb mechanics = Bad Balance.

i still think the main problem is the "everyone has to rock an antimaterial rifle" ac40+ cannon.
i think there should be more random deviation in firing, not by much but some with shorter range weapons having more deviation at ranges while things like guass and ppc maintain accuracy. but at the same time bring the heat limit back down to TT values and make SHS work properly and then make DHS REAL DHS, so you cant even fire more then 2 ERPPC without shutting down, but you can still rock 4 erppc you just cant fire them in one massive shot and you wouldnt be able to sustain that much heat for more then a few salvos.

i think latent heat would be better then ghost heat. bring back the reactor power bar and make it so when your firing those high powered weapons like clustered ERLL or ERPPC your mech physically only has so much. that way you can balance heat properly and scale back things like autocannons having way to much ammo or being way to deadly because everything else has ghost heat.

also make lrms shoot straight love of god they should just go back to mech2 style lrms that are super fast and dumbfire but they must have LOS. gettin really tired of seeing ac40+ cannons everywhere and lrm boats of jargantan size.