54 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

OP, it's not too late. Go here for advice and counsel.

[Mercer Skye]

Personally, I like Versatility. And as far as Jager variants go, there's only two that are going to give you 'optimal push' for building an AC40. Firebrand and S. For all intents and purposes, all four variants are practically the same. BUT;

an AC 20 takes up ALL the slots in the arm so;

The A can't use any missiles, leaving you with only two energy hardpoints
The DD is going to give you the same issue as the A, as you're losing four total ballistic points to run just two ballistic weapons.

So to me, personally, the 'perfect' variant is either the S or the Firebrand (Depending on if you want to drop real cash on a 'mech or not). Both come out to having the four torso energy points for additional weaponry. And this is good because AC20 and Medium Lasers both have the same effective max range.

Why is that important?

Because the only thing better than a 40 point volley, is a 60 point volley.

[Scurry]

Eh, the Jager AC40 is kind of a crit success/crit failure thing. Either you manage to get into range and tear things up - or you get spotted and torn apart from long distance.

[Victor Morson]

Appogee, on 30 November 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

OP, it's not too late. Go here for advice and counsel.

Calling the thing that smashed them to pieces "low skill": The lowest skill thing of all.

OP, if you go to that thread bring your raft, for it is the river of tears.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 December 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[42and19]

Victor Morson, on 01 December 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Calling the thing that smashed them to pieces "low skill": The lowest skill thing of all.

OP, if you go to that thread bring your raft, for it is the river of tears.

Technically it is low skill though. Like the person above you said it's more about luck than anything. You either get close and do high amounts of damage or you get destroyed. I imagine alpine is the bane of ac/40 mechs.

Doesn't mean it's an invalid loadout, I am a firm believer in doing what you want to have fun.

Also, for those whining about these builds on the battlefield?

well

stay at range

problem solved.

Boomjagers are close range glass cannons, if you see one...go for the legs or shoulders. As you can see from this thread the majority of the players stack XLs. If the jager doesn't have one than you have just halved their damage potential.


Hell you could even counter cheese with cheese. My protector with dual ppc and dual ac/5 rips boom jagers up. As long as they don't get close.

Edited by 42and19, 01 December 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[Appogee]

Victor Morson, on 01 December 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Calling the thing that smashed them to pieces "low skill": The lowest skill thing of all. OP, if you go to that thread bring your raft, for it is the river of tears.

Or he could just bring his sense of humor, as literally dozens of players - excluding you - did.

Edited by Appogee, 01 December 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[Schrottfrosch]

I tried the AC/10 + AC/20 combo and it works nice - I am using it on the A though for quick leveling that thing. I kinda dislike the idea of a Jager with missiles - I have my Catapults for that

AC/10 + AC/20 dosent suffer from ghostheat, and you can use the AC/10 for bigger ranges, too. Maybe I will try this 60point alpha suggestion, but I think replacing one AC/20 with an AC/10 would still help with the heat and you would still have a 50 point alpha.

[Appogee]

Yes, with AC40 you will find yourself standing around after a couple of shots, waiting for your heat to go down enough to shoot... while the enemy tries pummels your side torsii trying to take you out. AC20 + AC10 enables you to keep firing much longer. (It's harder to manage ammo though, given the different firing rates and shots per ton.)

Edited by Appogee, 01 December 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

wow, AC10+AC20 is a sweet build. Has a good "feel", decent damage and not really hot like dual 20s. Better rate of fire, more range, and can link-fire instead of alternate fire. Using 260xl with an extra 2 medium lasers, 5 kills on my first run

[Victor Morson]

Appogee, on 01 December 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yes, with AC40 you will find yourself standing around after a couple of shots, waiting for your heat to go down enough to shoot... while the enemy tries pummels your side torsii trying to take you out. AC20 + AC10 enables you to keep firing much longer. (It's harder to manage ammo though, given the different firing rates and shots per ton.)

Or you could, you know, fire one AC/20 at a time which is what everyone does with them right now.

2x AC/20 is far, far more useful than 2x AC/10 or the AC/20 AC/10 split.

[42and19]

Victor Morson, on 01 December 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Or you could, you know, fire one AC/20 at a time which is what everyone does with them right now.

2x AC/20 is far, far more useful than 2x AC/10 or the AC/20 AC/10 split.

SHH, that's tactics and thinking.

How dare you suggest that here! Do you want the call the mob?

[Koniving]

Victor Morson, on 30 November 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

On the contrary, a standard engine boomjager is often the best boomjager. Esp. with the huge jager side torsos!

I hate to agree but it is true. Today I was fighting a fast twin AC/20 Jager. If he were using an XL engine I would have one won just seconds before he killed me. But as it turns out, he was using a standard engine contrary to what I thought based on his speed and loadout and he prevailed.

(Edit: "I would have 'one'?" Scary. Need sleep!)

Edited by Koniving, 01 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Koniving]

Redshift2k5, on 01 December 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

wow, AC10+AC20 is a sweet build. Has a good "feel", decent damage and not really hot like dual 20s. Better rate of fire, more range, and can link-fire instead of alternate fire. Using 260xl with an extra 2 medium lasers, 5 kills on my first run

Tried this for a change of flavor. It wasn't bad. Wound up trading the AC/10 for twin AC/5s, worked better.

Later tried LB-10x and twin MGs (I'm not a laser fan on Jagers; belly lasers are iffy to me) with the AC/20 and fell in love.
Boom, AC/20. Strip that armor. Bang-tat-tat-tat Shotty and MGs, strip them weapons. Laugh hysterically and dance before the kill. Find the next victim. While not the most 'new guy friendly' the build was a lot more fun than the "Left, right" of the twin AC/20 rig.

(None of the versions I did had lasers for reasons already stated.)

(Also: Used a 280 XL for mine.)

[xXBagheeraXx]

Victor Morson, on 30 November 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

... because it's better to run an AC/40 K2 Boomcat instead?

Seriously though if you think it's cheese... learn to adapt.

It is cheese...I made an ac20 cat for giggles long ago, and felt like a cheap ******...Its an easy button. Even easier on a jager since you can run an XL with an ac20 build and cram a bigger engine, or more ammo in the thing...Honestly, I feel like a cheap ****** just running a gauss firebrand for dosh...An average game in that is about 200k cbills without a premium.....

No m0ar cheese plz, kthxbai.

[Koniving]

It's easy to kill cheese. AC/40 Jager trumps AC/40 Cat any time of the day. Bang, bang headshot. Kitty's down. Kitty can't do the same to the Jager.

The trick to taking down the Jager is the same as taking down a K2 in a fair fight, get to its side and have fun. In this instance though the K2 does trump the Jager.

Head on, Jager wins. From the side, K2 wins. From there it's a matter of speed. K2 is a walking turret. Jager is a mobile weapon's platform. Each has its own roles, but in terms of 'meta' usefulness, the Jager wins by having the ability to close long distances.

[Gigastrike]

The answer is the 6-S (or Firebrand if you want the c-bill bonus) because of the energy weapon flexibility potential.

Not that it matters because you owe it to yourself to stretch your brain muscles and do your own thinking in order to come up with creative builds rather than follow everyone else.

Edited by Gigastrike, 01 December 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[42and19]

Koniving, on 01 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

It's easy to kill cheese. AC/40 Jager trumps AC/40 Cat any time of the day. Bang, bang headshot. Kitty's down. Kitty can't do the same to the Jager.

The trick to taking down the Jager is the same as taking down a K2 in a fair fight, get to its side and have fun. In this instance though the K2 does trump the Jager.

Head on, Jager wins. From the side, K2 wins. From there it's a matter of speed. K2 is a walking turret. Jager is a mobile weapon's platform. Each has its own roles, but in terms of 'meta' usefulness, the Jager wins by having the ability to close long distances.

From personal experiance I've gotten to the point were ac/40 jagers don't scare me much (unless I am surprised in close quarters by one). However, It's a highly disconcerting thing to take off the shoulder of one and have it still standing and still carrying an ac/20. This has actually killed me a few times.

[Victor Morson]

xXBagheeraXx, on 01 December 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

It is cheese...I made an ac20 cat for giggles long ago, and felt like a cheap ******...Its an easy button. Even easier on a jager since you can run an XL with an ac20 build and cram a bigger engine, or more ammo in the thing...Honestly, I feel like a cheap ****** just running a gauss firebrand for dosh...An average game in that is about 200k cbills without a premium.....

If it were cheese, you'd see these all the time in 12 man games. As it stands, you only see them in weight capped games where there's a lot of lights or light mediums. You never see them in the heavier games.

And I assure you the competitive 12 man players have no problem using all the cheese.

The fact is, it's a sometimes useful strategy to have an AC/20 slinger pop in last and then clean up wounded targets - brutal even. But it's one of the most short lived, easily stopped roles in the game - if the other guy sees those boom(whatevers), they are dead. Dead like disco.

Boom mechs are highly dangerous if you let them / if you can close the distance.They are a high damage flank with almost no durability; the Jag for it's side torsos and the K2 for the aforementioned huge head.

If you think they are cheesy all it means is you are a terrible pilot at situational awareness, have a similar range but inferior build, or have a completely worthless team who ignores it. Which is the only reason it succeeds in pugs.

TL/DR: In serious games if someone sees a Boomanything roll up we all collectively do this:


... it doesn't last long.

Now learn to keep away from and/or focus fire these things and stop crying about them people.

EDIT: Now if we ever get an assault that can roll dual AC/20s without the horrendous weaknesses the 'mechs that currently can have, then we might actually have a problem. One of the reasons I doubt we'll ever see the Devastator.

Edited by Victor Morson, 02 December 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Koniving, on 01 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

It's easy to kill cheese. AC/40 Jager trumps AC/40 Cat any time of the day. Bang, bang headshot. Kitty's down. Kitty can't do the same to the Jager.

The trick to taking down the Jager is the same as taking down a K2 in a fair fight, get to its side and have fun. In this instance though the K2 does trump the Jager.

Head on, Jager wins. From the side, K2 wins. From there it's a matter of speed. K2 is a walking turret. Jager is a mobile weapon's platform. Each has its own roles, but in terms of 'meta' usefulness, the Jager wins by having the ability to close long distances.

Where you go wrong is you assume anyone should ever be giving anyone a head on shot for more than a split second, no matter the 'mech.

The K2's head is a problem I'll agree, but compared to the Jag side torsos... well, ouch.

Now I'll be the first to admit this is where I'm delving into personal perspective, and not so much community perspective amongst competitive players. In fact, I've seen teams field the K2 booms, the Jag booms, and a mix of booms - we've even fielded a mix of booms in Marik games with chassis limits.

But in my experience, the K2 makes a better boom brawler while the Jag makes a far better dual Gauss sniper. It's high mounted guns / ability to avoid much front line fighting in that role are ideal for it's hitbox weaknesses.

Gigastrike, on 01 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

The answer is the 6-S (or Firebrand if you want the c-bill bonus) because of the energy weapon flexibility potential.

Not that it matters because you owe it to yourself to stretch your brain muscles and do your own thinking in order to come up with creative builds rather than follow everyone else.

Of course you do, but it doesn't mean you need to go backwards and not have some in the garage with top tier designs ready to go. The meta is still changing. New 'mechs with previous trash weapons are emerging as top tier designs and changing the landscape. Experimentation pays off and messing with all kinds of things is worthwhile.

I myself try ALL the weapons, including the ones I hate, so I can fairly assess them in conversation; and I get as much feedback externally as possible, in case I'm missing something. I'm open to new things working, if they can be proven to work.

When something clearly is inferior however I don't keep trying to make it work, go on forums to post it works, or tell new people to avoid what works in favor of something else.

The guy wants a boomjag. He wants to know what the best Boomjag is. He's not asking to try your Frankenmech.

Edited by Victor Morson, 02 December 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Appogee]

42and19, on 01 December 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

SHH, that's tactics and thinking.

LOL. So chainfiring AC20s constitutes ''tactics and thinking'' now...?

Redshift2k5, on 01 December 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

wow, AC10+AC20 is a sweet build. Has a good "feel", decent damage and not really hot like dual 20s. Better rate of fire, more range, and can link-fire instead of alternate fire. Using 260xl with an extra 2 medium lasers, 5 kills on my first run

No, no, no!. Sure, it might have achieved 5 kills for you, avoided ghost heat, and enabled 30 point hits instead or a higher rate of fire between shots... but you really should have used more ''tactics and thinking''.

Koniving, on 01 December 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Tried this for a change of flavor. It wasn't bad. Wound up trading the AC/10 for twin AC/5s, worked better.

No, Koniving, you are clearly mistaken. Please, for the love of Kerensky, use ''tactics and thinking'' and decide to chainfire dual AC20s .




By the way, I sometimes take dual AC20s for fun. However, I generally find a larger number of smaller caliber ACs delivers a more versatile and consistently successful build in the Jagers... enabling fire from greater ranges with fewer heat problems.

Edited by Appogee, 02 December 2013 - 01:12 PM.