127 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

That's just it. You don't learn to make the MG something it isn't. You learn to use what the MG is. For argument's sake, let's say you need 4+ MGs. So that's 4 tons (counting ammo) of a weapon system. Do you honestly think that should be able to compete with a proper autocannon in terms of damage?

Yes. Not at 500m range, but at 120m, I think it should compete. because that's part of the balance equation - the more range, the more weight, for the same damage output.

But I don't think that 1 DPS is out of line. I would even say 0.8 DPS might be just fine. Provided that we get rid of the continous bullet stream and RNG. Change it into a 1 second bullet stream followed by 1 second cooldown and it might work out.

[Sir Ratburger]

Honestly, I've seen them before the current update, they where terrible... please oh please don't risk changing them and then having to debuf them and break them all over again.

... Actually, what am I worried about, PGI doesn't listen to anyone on the forums anyways

[MustrumRidcully]

Sir Ratburger, on 02 December 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Honestly, I've seen them before the current update, they where terrible... please oh please don't risk changing them and then having to debuf them and break them all over again.

... Actually, what am I worried about, PGI doesn't listen to anyone on the forums anyways

That's not true. The first time I read of ghost heat and gauss rifle delay, it was on the forums. I am not sure if it originally came from the devs... But don't believe for a moment that they don't take the bad ideas.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Svensken]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun



MG should be a short ranged AC/2

that PGI completely fails at designing a weapon like it was writen is no surprise

[ChallengerCC]

Its ok, should do more internal damage. Especially it should do movement problems on part of enemy mechs. So that the arm systems for example dont work any longer and you cant turn them left right or so.

So if a internal of a enemy mech is free you can easely destroy internals but to get in blown away you need to shoot a long time or hit ammonition.

[Joseph Mallan]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

What do you guys think?

The machine Gun is the Ballistic equivalent to a Small Laser or SRM2 as such thy should do as much damage as these other light weapons.

[stjobe]

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

That's just it. You don't learn to make the MG something it isn't. You learn to use what the MG is. For argument's sake, let's say you need 4+ MGs. So that's 4 tons (counting ammo) of a weapon system. Do you honestly think that should be able to compete with a proper autocannon in terms of damage?

In TT they were severely range-limited AC/2s. I don't see why they couldn't be that here as well.

Well, apart from the fact that the AC/2 has gotten a 20x buff in damage output compared to TT, so it wouldn't do to make the MG a short-range 4 DPS weapon - even I think that would be OP. But a burst-fire 1 DPS weapon would be just dandy.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

when used properly, they can do serious damage and take even big mechs out of action.

Again, they can do "serious damage" only when mounted in groups of six, and there's exactly one 'mech variant in the game that can do that. In groups of four they don't do "serious damage", and in lesser amounts they do even less.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

Not everything revolves around dps, and a harasser with a poking weapon (ERLL for example) and the ability to jump on an enemy already engaged (and damaged) to take advantage in the armour opening is a solid choice.

The thing is almost any other weapon is more effective at doing just that than the MG. Sure, 2 DPS looks like a lot, but in practice you will not get anywhere near that DPS, and doing e.g. 3 damage over 0.75s is a lot more effective in killing things than doing 3 damage over 3 seconds. 4xSL will be much more effective in killing 'mechs than 4xMG - because they do 12 damage during those first 0.75s where the MGs do only 3 damage (or probably less, due to spread and continuous-fire).

In short, the MG falls short even on the one thing it's supposed to be good at.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

And or the record - RNG doesn't mean {Scrap} if you're too close for it to matter - the spread wo't be a factor, and you can still take enemies down no problem.

Have you even tried how close you need to be for the spread not to be a factor? As I said, at 120m the spread covers a Commando from top to toe. Now take a moment to think about how healthy it is for your LCT-1V, SDR-5K, or CDA-3C to spend that much time that close to an enemy, exposing your CT to them all the time.

[Blurry]

machine guns are great as long as you never have to use them.
If you have to equip them well choose another mech.

Kinda like lasers right now. If it doesnt have ballistic points choose a mech that does.

Kinda simple meta right now. Fun - no not really when only a 25% of the mechs are functional and useful but that is why they have sales. Buy more {Scrap} you dont need and doesnt work. Change meta new sale on mechs!
Oh who am I kidding it is PGI

Joseph Mallan, on 02 December 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

The machine Gun is the Ballistic equivalent to a Small Laser or SRM2 as such thy should do as much damage as these other light weapons.

wow wrong again.
they are for internals. but ya what did I expect from you something correct lol?

[Joseph Mallan]

Svensken, on 02 December 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun



MG should be a short ranged AC/2

that PGI completely fails at designing a weapon like it was writen is no surprise

Autocannon

Machine Gun

That PGI change the MG from TT was actually a fair change. Specially as they don't seem to be firing HEAP shells.

[qki]

Also, please keep in mind, than changing the entire mechanic of the gun from "keep stream on target for 3 seconds to do 6 damage" to "fire a 1 second burst for 6 damage, then wait 2 seconds" kind of invalidates the entire medium laser.

Sure - ML has more range, but at short range, with zero heat? MG's all day.

And finally - the continous fire mechanic does have merits. With a burst (or a pew, or whoosh or whatever" every X seconds, missing a shot drastically reduces your dps. Doesn't matter if you're on target 50 or 90% of the time, as long as you are off in the crucial moment.

The fact that MGs are like the inseminator (always ready to go), and the ability to miss a beat and keep going does count.

In TT, every weapon has the same, 10 second cooldown, and range is a HUGE factor (since you are rolling 2d6, a shot that hits on 11+ is three times more likely to hit, than something that hits on 12+, even though you are technically rolling between 2 and 12), because to-hit numbers are calculated based on range, and a 5/10/15 range LL is well worth the extra tonnage, if you are rolling +2 against an opponent rolling +4s.

So cut it out with the "short range AC2" already - it's just incredibly stupid. Please keep things in perspective, before going off on another "i'm the best game designer in the world, able to rebalance everything in my head in one go" rant.

[Parappaman]

I'm happy to see most people find the present MG balance good as it is. They tickle armored parts, they shred to pieces unarmored ones.

Try seriously running the "dreadful" 4x MG Locust, actively searching for unarmored foes. It is a force to be reckoned with. You rely on friends to strip those armor points off enemies (the single MPL you can mount does little), but when you see exposed components, marvelous things will happen. Two seconds of constant bullet stream on the back of an unarmored Atlas will kill it.

Read again: TWO SECONDS.

But what amazes me the most is the way it tears components apart. They basically turn red as soon as you can access them. And it's really fun running circles around hapless foes, who see their weapon groups become less and less varied over a very short period of time...

No, they don't work as a "spray and pray" kind of weapon, so they are not the jacks of all trades lasers are, to newbies and pros alike. But they are USEFUL in what they are meant to do, pretty good actually. Sure, if you have the tonnage to fit more powerful guns by all means do it, don't run MGs in Atlai. But they're no longer tied to NARCs as being useless and unrewarding gizmos.

[Warrior UK]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

DISCLAIMER: I cannot see any active MG threads. I also havn't seen any for a while. Also INB4 "MGs suck in TT so they should be useless in MWO". Nobody wants to hear about TT again.

Hi guys,

Recently I went back to my Cicada 3C, which has no choice except to mount multiple machine guns, and found them to be completely dissapointing. I was getting decent damage, but only because of the LL I also equipped. In a recent game I spent over 2000 rounds and 2 minutes trying to kill one ©hampion ATLAS, and just couldn't do it, even though the pilot was almost oblivious to my presense and no one else interrupted for the whole two minutes (when I was eventually killed by 5 of his team mates). The last time I used my 3C was just after MGs got buffed, but before the debuff. At that point I think they felt just right, with them doing reasonable damage but being limited by a tiny range, and by requiring you constantly face the enemy, meaning you couldn't torso twist.

My Cicada 3M uses a single MG which is mostly useless, but I had 1.5T free and couldn't think of a better way to spend it (already had AMS).

Apart from the Champion spiders that I seemed to get grouped with every game, I almost never see MGs around. I believe that with a small buff, MGs could be somewhat useful and used again, and weapon variety on the battelfield is never a bad thing.

What do you guys think?

I have to agree that one or even two of these are as much good as toilet tissue when not grouped with another weapon.

MrJJ, on 01 December 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

umm.... mgs do some nice crits to internals. They finally work as intended just need to strip the armor off and they will shred just about anything.

This when used in lager groups with LPL, reminds me of my Jager stripper

[stjobe]

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Also, please keep in mind, than changing the entire mechanic of the gun from "keep stream on target for 3 seconds to do 6 damage" to "fire a 1 second burst for 6 damage, then wait 2 seconds" kind of invalidates the entire medium laser.

The 1 DPS "mini-AC/2" wouldn't have extra crit chance or extra IS damage. Just plain old damage like everything else, so it wouldn't invalidate anything.

I've stated before that I'm not a fan of the "crit-weapon" idea, and I'd love to see it gone if it meant the MG could be a viable regular weapon.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

And finally - the continous fire mechanic does have merits. With a burst (or a pew, or whoosh or whatever" every X seconds, missing a shot drastically reduces your dps. Doesn't matter if you're on target 50 or 90% of the time, as long as you are off in the crucial moment.

As long as you realize that every tenth of a second off-target with your MG reduces your (already diminished by spread) DPS by 1/10th - and that's starting with a 1 DPS value. 1/10ths of a second off-target? Your DPS is now 0.9.

Sure, missing the whole beam with a SL puts your DPS to zero, but there's a real and tangible benefit from having to be on-target for 0.75 seconds as opposed to 3.0 seconds.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

So cut it out with the "short range AC2" already - it's just incredibly stupid. Please keep things in perspective, before going off on another "i'm the best game designer in the world, able to rebalance everything in my head in one go" rant.

I'd be careful who I'd call "stupid" if I were you, Mr. "IS hasn't doubled and MGs have no RNG spread".

Parappaman, on 02 December 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Two seconds of constant bullet stream on the back of an unarmored Atlas will kill it.

Read again: TWO SECONDS.

The LCT-1V can mount 4xMGs. That's 8 DPS against Internal Structure, or 16 damage in 2 seconds.

Are you trying to claim that the Atlas has less than 16 Internal Structure in any of the torsos?

[Joseph Mallan]

Give the MG A "Stream duration" like a laser has and a short cool down. Any MG that is shot like they are in MW:O would have warped barrels... Yeah... I know Reality and video games. But this is a in game balance to keep DpS weapons balanced. Give the MG a DpS, duration and cool down like a Small Laser and it will be fine.

[Randalf Yorgen]

1x PPC 1xLPL 6X MG(8k rounds) Jagger DD works fairly well, No heat, good punch at range to open up some of those arms, legs and torsos and once the target is to close for the PPC the 6 MG's more than replace it. Take legs and arms off in just a few seconds or open up the back of a sleeping Atlas in about 7 seconds. 90-200M is a very sweet spot indeed. Put a standard engine in it, I forget the size but you can get max armour and a top speed of 72. Good support mech for brawlers or defender for Missile boats. AMS to boot.

[Nehkrosis]

not even bothering to read the rest of this thread, il just say this; use them on internals. and use more than one.

that is all.
there fine.

[DrSlamastika]

let machineguns alone they are against infantry, but infantry is missing here.

Anyway, you need some weapon for break throught armor and then you can use your machinegun with good results.

Edited by DrSlamastika, 02 December 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[qki]

I'm not arguing that either way is better - both have benefits. It's not like the RNG puts your shots at completely random points of an enemy mech, regardless of what you do - relative position and distance are still a factor here.

4MGs do horrible damage (as in scary) to unarmored components, so my feelings after taking a long break and seeing what the MGs do now, was quite the opposite - my thoughts were that they might be a little OP (as I've been having way too much fun with them).

IMO the MG is fine as it is. It fits a very specific, narrow role, and is a legitimate choice for a weapon. End of story. They don't need buffs to make them competetive with lasers/autocannon in their field of expertise - just let MGs do their own thing.

stjobe, on 02 December 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

The 1 DPS "mini-AC/2" wouldn't have extra crit chance or extra IS damage. Just plain old damage like everything else, so it wouldn't invalidate anything.

Except anything, that, you know - generates HEAT. Do remember, that MG is a zero heat weapon - you can fire 4 at once and not let go of the trigger until you run dry. If they worked like lasers do, and range is much less of a factor in MW, than in CBT, then everyone and their dog would pack as many MGs as they could. And AFAIK, the idea is not to make them a "must have" weapon,

Seriously - MGs are fine.

[stjobe]

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm not arguing that either way is better - both have benefits. It's not like the RNG puts your shots at completely random points of an enemy mech, regardless of what you do - relative position and distance are still a factor here.

I've said it a few times already, but I guess I'll have to say it again; at 120m the spread covers a Commando from head to toe - so yes, it does put your shots at completely random points of an enemy 'mech at that distance - and a lot of your shots will miss outright.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

4MGs do horrible damage (as in scary) to unarmored components

4xSL puts 12 damage on a pin-point location in 0.75 seconds.
4xMG puts less than 6 damage all over the target in 0.75 seconds.

If you have less than 12 IS (remaining), that's a kill for the SL-toting 'mech, whereas the MG one will still be wondering why the target won't die two seconds later.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

IMO the MG is fine as it is. It fits a very specific, narrow role, and is a legitimate choice for a weapon. End of story. They don't need buffs to make them competetive with lasers/autocannon in their field of expertise - just let MGs do their own thing.

The MG doesn't have "a thing" - any other weapon is as good as or better at destroying internals as an MG, but the MG is also useless against armour.

Yes, it has a "high" DPS number versus internals, but that means next to nothing when you have to be in an ideal situation to get even close to that number. I find it baffling that so many people fail to understand this. The MG does not have 2 DPS versus internals in practice, it is a theoretical number only - and its hurting the MG badly that people seem to think that number is achievable in the field.

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

the idea is not to make them a "must have" weapon

Even for the 'mechs that must have them, like the LCT-1V, the SDR-5K, or the CDA-3C?

I'm fully aware that the MG is fearsome on the JM6-DD, but ask yourself how much of that fear is due to the dual LL/PPCs that do the heavy lifting, or the heavy-class armour that the JM6 mounts? How fearsome are 4xMG on a LCT-1V? How effective are they when the biggest energy weapon you can use them with is a MPL?

qki, on 02 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Seriously - MGs are fine.

Seriously - they're not. At the very least they need the random spread removed.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blurry, on 02 December 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

machine guns are great as long as you never have to use them.
If you have to equip them well choose another mech.

Kinda like lasers right now. If it doesnt have ballistic points choose a mech that does.

Kinda simple meta right now. Fun - no not really when only a 25% of the mechs are functional and useful but that is why they have sales. Buy more {Scrap} you dont need and doesnt work. Change meta new sale on mechs!
Oh who am I kidding it is PGI


wow wrong again.
they are for internals. but ya what did I expect from you something correct lol?

They are for internals because that is what PGI made of them. To be a really useful engine, they should be able to produce damage in the range of a Small Laser. So Machine Guns could still do equal DpS of a Small laser with the added bonus of Crit seeking for a nice bonus. How limited is your mind that you could not want that? It wouldn't make ME use MGs but it would make them more useful.