127 replies to this topic

[Wakdjunkaga]

While constant stream is not the greatest because of required facetime to get their full DPS, I'd rather see the following changes.

Modify the cylinder feel of the projectile path, spread is fine, but make it more like lbx-10- it is all coming out of the same point isn't it?

Tighter spread on burst. When burst firing 4 rounds or less, reduce spread by 25%, full auto = normal.

Greatly increase projectile speed, perhaps half AC20 speed- so 450 (100 now... currently slower than LRM)

Keep everything else the same.

[Deathlike]

stjobe, I'd only counter that with the Cicada-3C, you can use AC2s on them, despite them not being exactly the most viable thing on the Spider-5K.

As currently constituted, the 3C isn't a great platform for 4MGs, when the Spider-5K does them better (despite the fact you can use a PPC).

Something like this could be OK.

CDA-3C

Edited by Deathlike, 03 December 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Mr 144]

The MG-DD used to be good....before the heat nerf to ERPPCs...THAT build could kill AC40s with only 33% MG shots landed on the general torso area...now...Meh

[stjobe]

Deathlike, on 03 December 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

stjobe, I'd only counter that with the Cicada-3C, you can use AC2s on them, despite them not being exactly the most viable thing on the Spider-5K.

As currently constituted, the 3C isn't a great platform for 4MGs, when the Spider-5K does them better (despite the fact you can use a PPC).

Something like this could be OK.

CDA-3C

Yes, the CDA-3C is a medium (shock, gasp, yes it is!) and is not in as tight a spot as the LCT-1V or SDR-5K. Still, compare it to the equivalent energy build (2xLL, 3xSL - CDA-2A) and you'll see the difference.

I apologize in advance to all Cicada pilots; I've never even dropped in one, so that build is probably stir-crazy, but it does go to show that four ballistic slots on a 40-ton 'mech is probably three too many, whereas five energy is no problem.

[Mcgral18]

Wakdjunkaga, on 03 December 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

While constant stream is not the greatest because of required facetime to get their full DPS, I'd rather see the following changes.

Modify the cylinder feel of the projectile path, spread is fine, but make it more like lbx-10- it is all coming out of the same point isn't it?

Tighter spread on burst. When burst firing 4 rounds or less, reduce spread by 25%, full auto = normal.

Greatly increase projectile speed, perhaps half AC20 speed- so 450 (100 now... currently slower than LRM)

Keep everything else the same.

Doing .4 damage won't do very much, I'm afraid and changing the particle effects to move faster won't do a thing either since they have the same hitscan properties and lasers, and the same 2X range.

Damage isn't in a terrible spot, although I would certainly like the cone of fire reduced or removed, since it is rather insane.

[qki]

the gibberish part is not having spread (no one is arguing that point), but thinking it matters. It sure as hell didn't matter to the beemer that I tore the legs off of lately (with naught but 4 mg and one med laser).

The mg is an effective weapon, if you know what you're doing, and that seems to be the crux of the matter.

[Mcgral18]

qki, on 03 December 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

the gibberish part is not having spread (no one is arguing that point), but thinking it matters. It sure as hell didn't matter to the beemer that I tore the legs off of lately (with naught but 4 mg and one med laser).

The mg is an effective weapon, if you know what you're doing, and that seems to be the crux of the matter.

...that spread is very relevant. It means less bullets are hitting your target, which means less damage. Instead of being viable, it makes it mediocre aside from facehugging. That spread also makes you hit many hitboxes instead of focusing on the single component you were aiming at. Inflates damage scores, and means you waste shots.

It's fun to use, but never call it effective. Only the pinpoint weapons are effective in this meta.

[Lucian Nostra]

I'd hate for MGs to lose the constant fire mechanic. I love how you can lock down someone who has an open torso with the constant stream of bullets, if it went to a burst fire weapon they'd be able to swing in on you without worry.

I'd just like to see the cone of fire go away or be tightened significantly and possibly seeing the base damage come up a little bit (if the cone tightening didn't help enough)

I don't want to see the super MG again though.

[Mr 144]

qki, on 03 December 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

The mg is an effective weapon, if you know what you're doing, and that seems to be the crux of the matter.

No it's not.

The crux of the matter is a weapon system which relies on either a poorlly skilled, or already heavily wounded opponent to be viable...even when boated to the maximum potential on ballistic heavy hardpoint chassis needs attention when there are variants on chassis which have no choice but to to equip them.

Anyone can win against anyone in anything.

Anyone can prey on the unskilled, wounded, or weak. Personal success stories have no bearing in balance discussions. Math does matter. It is really the only distinction, but not neccessarily in the usual ways it's thrown around. It's not one single numerical value, but a combination of build possibilities, loadout sacrifices, heat, DPS, pin-point, etc. These things are not variables....pilot skill is. Personal success stories are dependant on an unkown variable...opponent skill. This can be mitigated at "higher" levels of play...given that's it's obvious that the players involved are both highly skilled and represent the real-world aspect of testing. Miscellaneous, "I just killed such and such...things are fine" accompanied by a silly screenshot are irrelevant and in fact detrimental to the proccess.

I pioneered the controversial "do not buff MG past 1 DPS" argument...do a forum search on me and MGs and you'll find the ERPPC + MG -DD fully mathed out vs the (at the time) omg uber-awesomesauce AC/40....ya know what? the math was right. Player testing (the LAST step) confirmed this repeatedly. The builds possible to potentially make MGs OP no longer exist.

The game mechanics change. So do positions. Mine has. MGs need a plain ole damage buff and much smaller cone. Personally, I like some spread and constant fire, but that's just trolling (intrinsic) value and should be ignored for balancing purposes.

Edited by Mr 144, 03 December 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Obelus]

My only problem with machine guns is they need a better dakka sound.

[wanderer]

I think there's still room for improvement- MG's started out as one of the worst weapons in the game, after all.

You've got room to work. You could put in arrays. You could simply put in a "2 MG" weapon option that allows you to install two MG's into a single ballistic slot, thereby giving lighter 'Mechs the opportunity to bulk out on the little pingers to a respectable degree.

Alter the "cone" to a more complex damage equation. Have the "center" be X DPS, with a "spray" delivering random pings across the original cone. That way, you have a reliable targeted amount of damage from the MG, but it'll still be spitting out hits in a wider range than a "straight" ballistic weapon might. Bonus: Make the "center" damage be tracer fire, which also lets an MG mated to a larger ballistic act as a guide weapon. The occasional Hunchback used to put that to good effect at close range.

[Monky]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 December 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

I think the constant stream of bullets is what is hampering it most.

I'd tweak it into 1 second long bursts followed by a 1 second cooldown or something like that. You might actually be able (or need to) lower the DPS and it would still be more viable, since it finally gives the player a chance to torso twist without losing damage output.

This is pretty much all that needs to happen. Being stuck faceplanting an enemy at 90 meters to get any use out of them is what is making them tough to utilize.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I voted fine as is. 2 MGs may weigh a bit much but they get the job done.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The MG was fine before the last nerf, but now even four of them basically does nothing, even against mechs with stripped armor. Even 4x MGs barely does anything to a stripped target now.

The problem when PGI nerfed the MGs wasn't the MGs, it was the Spider, and that problem is at least party solved by the hit box fixes that went through.

[aniviron]

I'd like to see the MG denerfed after that last patch that lowered their crit rate. They were finally useful, and as much as I hate the idea of a crit-seeking weapon, the MG was not only destroying crits, it was also dealing damage once the enemy was opened up. I'm fine with MGs having a pathetic 1dps against armor, but only as long as they're dealing close to 3dps to internals like they were before.

Tightening and/or removing the spread from them would go a long way, too. I'm not sure why the MG is the only weapon in the game that doesn't go where you fire it.

[12Bravo]

So take your 3C load 4xMG w/2 tons of ammo, 1xLPLS, AMS and an XL 315.

You need to make sure you look for mechs with armor torn off them already but this mech is a killer

[Nothing Whatsoever]

12Bravo, on 08 December 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

So take your 3C load 4xMG w/2 tons of ammo, 1xLPLS, AMS and an XL 315.

You need to make sure you look for mechs with armor torn off them already but this mech is a killer

One could possibly squeeze in an XL 325: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a901d64aaea459

[12Bravo]

Certainly you could, I just personally like having armor in the arms to shield that XL engine.

[Yiazmat]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

DISCLAIMER: I cannot see any active MG threads. I also havn't seen any for a while. Also INB4 "MGs suck in TT so they should be useless in MWO". Nobody wants to hear about TT again.

Hi guys,

Recently I went back to my Cicada 3C, which has no choice except to mount multiple machine guns, and found them to be completely dissapointing. I was getting decent damage, but only because of the LL I also equipped. In a recent game I spent over 2000 rounds and 2 minutes trying to kill one ©hampion ATLAS, and just couldn't do it, even though the pilot was almost oblivious to my presense and no one else interrupted for the whole two minutes (when I was eventually killed by 5 of his team mates). The last time I used my 3C was just after MGs got buffed, but before the debuff. At that point I think they felt just right, with them doing reasonable damage but being limited by a tiny range, and by requiring you constantly face the enemy, meaning you couldn't torso twist.

My Cicada 3M uses a single MG which is mostly useless, but I had 1.5T free and couldn't think of a better way to spend it (already had AMS).

Apart from the Champion spiders that I seemed to get grouped with every game, I almost never see MGs around. I believe that with a small buff, MGs could be somewhat useful and used again, and weapon variety on the battelfield is never a bad thing.

What do you guys think?

I think I may be the reason that they were nurfed. They were buffed, considerably. To the point I was doing this:



on a very regular basis. People were on the forums with pitchforks and torches, up in arms that the lowly spider was ANNIHILATING people. And to be honest, it was a bit much. I could get behind a victor, hit him with my Med.Pulse and open up with the MG's, by the time the Med.Pulse would fire again, it would destroy his L/R torso, XL would pop, and he's dead. Yeah, Literately 3 and a half seconds of fire on a rear torso.

This was due to the component-crit-to-structure damage transfer. As you'd shoot MG's at an open structure, your hits would do damage to said structure, and also each hit would hit 1-3 of the items (components, IE, weapons, heatsinks, ECM, ammo) Whenever you hit a component inside, some of the damage of the hit would go REAPPLY to the structure. It was AWESOMELY high. like 30-50%? I forget. It's like 15% now, which still makes it nice to blast out open segments on mechs. But I could get behind an open Atlas DDC with his ECM, 3 SRMS 6's and a DHS packed in the left torso, cirt them all out in about 2 seconds and the torso/arm itself would fall off in about 4 seconds.

IMO, I'd like to see the MG's damaged buffed another .1 or .2 and keep the same crit modifier it has (which is lowish). It would give MG's a little more punch at the end of a match, moping up wounded mechs. But I doubt it'll happen, because people like me who excel in the Spider-5K will go on pillaging, crushing our enemies, driving them before us, relishing the lamentations of their women folk.

p.s. I have over 150,000 xp in my 5K spider =p

Edited by Yiazmat, 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Leafia Barrett]

They need accuracy. MGs rely on being able to, you know, hit the exposed areas, and not the air or armored sections around them. Right now, that's only reliably possible at facehugging range.