37 replies to this topic

[mailin]

A couple of other things to remember. First, if possible carry a TAG. If you see enemies, but their triangles aren't appearing, try to get behind them and look for an Atlas. Chances are pretty good it may be a DDC. Stay behind him and at least 500m away and TAG him. Try to stay out of their detection range and keep the tag on until he's dead from lrms. Total bonus if you can pull it off because you get a spotting bonus and a tagging bonus as well. Once the DDC is down you may have a lot more spotting and tagging bonuses coming your way. On a Jenner F a tag can replace a mlas and doesn't add any heat and has a longer effective range. Second, DDCs have to mount the ECM in their left shoulder as well as their missiles. If they have srms and you can take out their left shoulder you not only eliminate a potentially devastating light killing weapon, but also make them a lot more vulnerable to lrm locks. Third, if you're in an ECM light and want to get behind the enemy, switch your ECM to counter before you get within 250m and there's much less of a chance that they will know you're behind them.

Edited by mailin, 01 December 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Israel Finklestein]

I wouldn't recommend carrying a TAG laser unless you're in a premade lance with an LRM boat. On virtually any light build, one TAG can be substituted for one medium laser which gives you significantly more firepower when we're talking about a light mech's loadout, it's never a good idea to depend on the team makeup a matchmaking game gives you to justify the slot. It's fine to keep a TAG in the hangar and then switch it out if you're playing with a buddy with LRMs, it's actually pretty easy to fit a TAG into both the typical Jenner and Raven builds, but again, don't carry one if you're not sure whether you're going to get use out of it or not since it takes up a hardpoint that a Jenner can be using more effectively (Dual ER large Raven has a spare hardpoint and can fit one somewhat easily, but 1ER/2ML/2SSRM builds need to drop a medium for one)

Though the left torso carries ECM on a DDC, I still feel the right torso is a much more valuable target for an aspiring Atlas-slayer since an Atlas typically carries an AC20, dual LBX or dual AC5/UAC5 in his right torso, all of these weapons are much more dangerous to a light pilot (and to most other mechs) than SRMs are (since hit detection on them is bad, and lights still occasionally avoid shots with lag armor making them doubly resistant to SRM fire) and of course LRMs are worthless inside a light's typical range of engagement.

As for flamers, yeah, they have legitimate uses and can be viable on some builds. But they are not good weapons unless you're in an organized lance where you can have a light run in and flame people while your buddies hammer on the guy who can't effectively shoot back. It's particularly devastating to mass LL/PPC mechs (Stalkers in particular hate flamers since they can't turn worth a damn and many of them don't carry light enough armament to fire without overheating at 90% heat). Lights don't carry enough firepower on their own to really take advantage of the confusion a flamer causes though. It's not a weapon I'd ever recommend to someone solo queing.

[mailin]

On my 3L I have 2 mlas, 2 streaks and a TAG. I have tried replacing the tag with another mlas, but I didn't like the extra heat. Also, I have some serious problems with a 3L that doesn't have some kind of missiles. I think the dual ER LL has to make too many sacrifices, but that's a whole other topic. I have seen more often than not in pug matches at least one player has lrms, but ymmv. I was suggesting it as a way for a light pilot to be able to help his teammates without placing himself in the firing line so much.

[ImperialKnight]

is OP talking about 1v1 or team battle. if team battle, it's ridiculous, your job as a light is to harass or run distractions, not kill an Atlas. 1v1, lights will hand an Atlas its ***, literally, just hug their butts and keep shooting it

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 01 December 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Koniving, on 01 December 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

...However I honestly don't even think Victor has tried using them since late closed beta, if ever...

Yo Vic - you been skooled brah!

I have had a feeling for a long time that Vic just regurgitates what the "cool kids" have been doing..

Why don't you post up your mech stats and we can see exactly what you have played or not...

Edited by Mycrus, 03 December 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[Bront]

mailin, on 01 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

A couple of other things to remember. First, if possible carry a TAG. If you see enemies, but their triangles aren't appearing, try to get behind them and look for an Atlas. Chances are pretty good it may be a DDC. Stay behind him and at least 500m away and TAG him. Try to stay out of their detection range and keep the tag on until he's dead from lrms. Total bonus if you can pull it off because you get a spotting bonus and a tagging bonus as well. Once the DDC is down you may have a lot more spotting and tagging bonuses coming your way. On a Jenner F a tag can replace a mlas and doesn't add any heat and has a longer effective range. Second, DDCs have to mount the ECM in their left shoulder as well as their missiles. If they have srms and you can take out their left shoulder you not only eliminate a potentially devastating light killing weapon, but also make them a lot more vulnerable to lrm locks. Third, if you're in an ECM light and want to get behind the enemy, switch your ECM to counter before you get within 250m and there's much less of a chance that they will know you're behind them.

Israel Finklestein, on 01 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I wouldn't recommend carrying a TAG laser unless you're in a premade lance with an LRM boat. On virtually any light build, one TAG can be substituted for one medium laser which gives you significantly more firepower when we're talking about a light mech's loadout, it's never a good idea to depend on the team makeup a matchmaking game gives you to justify the slot. It's fine to keep a TAG in the hangar and then switch it out if you're playing with a buddy with LRMs, it's actually pretty easy to fit a TAG into both the typical Jenner and Raven builds, but again, don't carry one if you're not sure whether you're going to get use out of it or not since it takes up a hardpoint that a Jenner can be using more effectively (Dual ER large Raven has a spare hardpoint and can fit one somewhat easily, but 1ER/2ML/2SSRM builds need to drop a medium for one)

Honestly, there are good points on both of these.

As someone who runs Jenners, Commandos and Ravens, I've found taking a TAG as a light is a matter of preference, and it's effectiveness really depends on your play style.

Commandos - I would avoid it on the 2D, as you only have 1 energy spot, and on the other models, you're often moving around so fast as to not be able to hold your aim of the TAG very long, and you're hurting for firepower. On the other hand, for leveling up the mechs you don't want to keep, it's a cheap low/no heat way to run standard HS and grind up XP.

Jenners - Jenners generally are better harassers than they are scouts, so the firepower they lose can be costly, but since they can also mount lots of weapons, they can possibly afford to lose a little bit. A 3 ML, 1 TAG, 2 SSRM2 Jenner D actually gets some personal use out of the TAG as well (Streaks lock faster with Tag too), however in my experpience, I've never been able to make it work well.

Ravens - Ravens tend to play stealth scout a bit more, so TAGging fits into what they sometimes aim to do. Again, SSRM builds benefit from TAG as well, and it may help with heat issues, particularly on hot maps. I've had the most success TAGging as a light in my Raven.


That said, if you're doing it for rewards, they're spotty at best in PUGs, more reliable when you go in with a friendly missile boat. If you're doing for information scouting, ECM penetration, or some other reason, it's up to you if it's worth it. I generally find it's not worth taking on most mechs, as there are more useful things I can be doing as a light than tagging most of the time.

[Victor Morson]

Koniving, on 01 December 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

What Vic here is so afraid of is you ruining his twin PPC + AC/20 rig by having him ride 90% heat.

No, because that's not the most lethal part of the flamer. What will ACTUALLY kill me is laughing to death.

You people seriously think the flamer is acceptable right now? There's not a facepalm image big enough.

Mycrus, on 03 December 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

Yo Vic - you been skooled brah!

I have had a feeling for a long time that Vic just regurgitates what the "cool kids" have been doing..

You're right, the cool kids don't take the flamer. Or the smart kids. Or people with common sense.*

* Gimmick joke builds not withstanding.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 December 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 05 December 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

No, because that's not the most lethal part of the flamer. What will ACTUALLY kill me is laughing to death.

You people seriously think the flamer is acceptable right now? There's not a facepalm image big enough.



You're right, the cool kids don't take the flamer. Or the smart kids. Or people with common sense.*

* Gimmick joke builds not withstanding.

have you tried a flamer lately?

or is this conjecture again?

btw... do you sleep?

[Koniving]

Victor Morson, on 05 December 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

No, because that's not the most lethal part of the flamer. What will ACTUALLY kill me is laughing to death.

You people seriously think the flamer is acceptable right now? There's not a facepalm image big enough.

You know we don't think it's in a good place right now. It is, however, in the best state it's ever been in since closed beta.

If the old "components take damage when over 80% heat" thing comes back, I would reckon flamers would be as satisfactory as it may ever get. Then flamers could heat up or more accurately keep the enemy heated beyond 80% and near 90%, where systematically akin to closed beta the following would take gradual damage: Heatsinks, ammunition, weapons, CASE, Equipment (BAP, jumpjets, command console, etc). At that point the 'current' flamers would become satisfactory. However I would still prefer at least the napalm-esque flamer fix idea I mentioned to you on the Oxide thread.

My point, though, is that it does tangible returns in its use even in its current state. It can provide a semi-viable though brief defense. (Yes, the smoke screen or the blinding flames won't erase your target signature but it will make it harder to aim for a specific body part on your mech). Sometimes that is all a light mech can hope for in a bad situation.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Mycrus, on 05 December 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

have you tried a flamer lately?

or is this conjecture again?

btw... do you sleep?

Yes.

No.

...No.

Koniving, on 05 December 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

The point, though, is that it does tangible returns in its use even in its current state.

Not even close.

It needs a huge buff to make up for the super short range/hard cut off even if it did decent heat transfer, which it does not.

I'd love working flamers. But right now they don't. They definitely aren't in the running for "The best way to take down an Atlas."

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 December 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Koniving]

Victor Morson, on 05 December 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

I'd love working flamers. But right now they don't. They definitely aren't in the running for "The best way to take down an Atlas."

More akin to "giving you a chance to survive when the Atlas almost has you in his sights." Partly what this guy is asking for is ways to take down an Atlas, which would logically include any and all tricks to survive that moment when all time slows down to a crawl and you know in the blink of an eye you could be dead.

Think of it this way. In Battlefield 3, the flare is the premiere choice in defense against incoming missiles. You launch the flare, the missile goes after it instead. What did ECM counter measures do early on in BF3? Absolutely nothing after the missile was launched. Later, it causes the missile to 'slightly' veer off course in which case you can easily 'accidentally' run into it about 6 out of 10 instances. Did that prevent people from using it? Not at all. The ECM could not greatly divert a missile. It could not stop a missile at all. But what it could do, when launched before the missile is fired, is break the lock.

In Pada's example, the light is using the flamer as a last second Bf3 ECM Chaff to break the aim the enemy has lined up on something crucial before it is fired. Is it always useful? Not at all. But the moment inevitably will come, and missing one laser on a Jenner won't hurt. If anything missing that one laser will make it less likely to 'stop' from overheating and die from being shot as a stationary target.

Edited by Koniving, 05 December 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Koniving, on 05 December 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

More akin to "giving you a chance to survive when the Atlas almost has you in his sights."

A better way is to take 6 SPL and mow it's leg off before it can line up a shot. You don't need to blind them.

A light 'mech pilot should be damn near impossible for an Atlas to effectively fight naturally, if they have the firepower to do serious damage.

[Asmosis]

an atlas cant target a light with ballistics at point blank range, worth noting.

@Konving have you tested chainfire flamers from the receiving end to confirm they actually do something? everything i've tried suggests they dont but i havent tested with someone on the opposite team in a live match.

[Lordred]

An easy way to kill Atali is by bringing him out into the sun, as most Atali are vampires, the sun will kill them.

[Koniving]

Asmosis, on 05 December 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

an atlas cant target a light with ballistics at point blank range, worth noting.

@Konving have you tested chainfire flamers from the receiving end to confirm they actually do something? everything i've tried suggests they dont but i havent tested with someone on the opposite team in a live match.

Blinding, obnoxious. Slower computers lag. From a light one or two flamers won't do anything because the flamers can't stay on target. However when carried by an assault (like my flamer stalker) with 4 flamers in two groups of chain fire act as two flamers constantly firing, enemies do frequently shut down with any heat inefficient build. Typically SRMs, lasers, PPCs, twin AC/20s, twin AC/10s. Can't even think of bringing a twin LB-10 or twin AC/5 rig to shutdown, however. Flamers are not weapons to use by themselves, however.

[Victor Morson]

Flamer gimmick builds are hilarious, as long as you understand why they're bad.

I mean they LOOK pretty at least to see them capping off. Partly why I hate the flamer sucking so much, it's visuals are outstanding.

[Kotzi]

Stay in his back. Try the legs if not shoot sidetorso. A mech without guns is as good as a dead mech. I would prefer torso as it is the weakest armored spot with the most chances to hit vital equipment.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Many newer pilots will stuff all their ammo in the legs, and trim off leg armor to put in more DHS or weapons or larger engine. At the first part of a pug match, when I face off against a relatively fresh Atlas, I always fire at the legs first to see if it has a lot of armor or not. If it looks weak, then I drill at the legs until I hit ammo crits. I've legged a fresh Atlas in two alpha strikes this way.

In the later parts of the match, it is likely the ammo that were there are already used up, so I focus more on rear armor or any weak points.

Legging a fresh Atlas takes too much work for a light, not only do you have to go through the armor, you also have to take out the entire health of the legs (which is 0.5x68 = 34).