23 replies to this topic

[Deathsani]

The recent test has left me feeling...troubled, over the progress that this game is making. I have read the feedback on it and a great deal seems to be leaning towards restructuring the whole thing. While I don't disagree, I want to finally get into the meat of this game and we can't do that without the idiotic stumbling block that is UI 2.0.

I will point out (if it wasn't obvious already) that I am not a programmer or a game developer or even a professional game tester so my knowledge of the architecture is limited. This is all hypothetical and if you think I am the dumbest man alive take a deep breath and respond constructively anyway, after calling me any number of forum allowed insults if necessary.

Didn't mean to troll before, connectivity issues deleted the poll.

Edited by Deathsani, 01 December 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

What is really incredible is the Devs silence. EVERYONE knows that there's nothing a community hates more than being left in the dark. Sure, I am pretty certain they have some twisted perception that talking too much backfires and blah blah, but the reality is even when the community grills you for your statements, they still prefer those questionable statements to nothing at all. And you know why?

Because silence makes us feel the game is really dying, like morale is going (it certainly is on this side of the keyboard), Devs are losing interest and hopes and things are slowing down to a grinding halt.

Sure, now the believers will jump in and say that it is clearly not the case cause UI 2.0 is in the launch tube and CW too, and the new map and the Saber 'mechs. Whatever.

The reality is Bryan specifically said in September on NGNG that UI 2.0 was going to be released in November, and still here we are, aware that THIS UI 2.0 is better not get released at all.

Then CW, million miles away. I mean, seriously? Bryan made a Command Chair post to explain Mercenaries... two months ago! And then nothing. HOW CAN THEY NOT REALIZE HOW MUCH THIS HURTS their own game?

Do they really want us to believe that they are coding SO HARD that no one is available to keep the development trasnparent or just make the community feel things are still alive?

Sure, they are working on a new video format but that is not enough, especially when that does NOT substitute the missing November Update which we simply didn't get (no explanation given). Not to mention that with PGI times this could arrive in February.

So, to recap:

- Game released "live" after 13 months of beta without core features that had been promised to arrive before launch.
- At launch, we were promised to have the new UI by November. It's December, and it is clearly far from being ready.
- Devs started communicating properly with the community in September, but it all died down two months later.

So as of now, 3 months after launch and 16 after the beginning of beta we still don't have the most important new features we've all been waiting for and in all honesty we all know we are not gonna get them for many more months. At least not in a working, decent state.

How in hell do you think, PGI, that people can keep wanting to hang around for that long and most importantly keep spending on this game when it totally feels like it is slowly aging, slowly losing its edge, and the money spent being wasted in empty promises? How long do you really think people can support you without being spoken to honestly and candidly? I was one of your hardest supporters, I've been called a fanboi a million times. Do you understand that if you lost me maybe JUST MAYBE you made some serious communication mistakes?

Mind, this is not entitlement: I am not saying they MUST communicate with the community. I am saying they are making a huge mistake by choosing to not communicate openly.

When your game rocks and everyone is happy you can afford to go underwater and work. When everyone is nervous about it, restless, mad because they want to love it but you are bringing them down, eager to pay up more money but wary of spending on a sinking boat, you really should dedicate some time, some real time, to keep them awake and aware of what is going on.

Trust me, bad news is better than no news here, and I'd personally prefer to hear every day how bad things are under the hood, and how harder than expected it is to code CW, UI or anything than to be left in this limbo of "ooooh trust us things are great and 2014 is gonna look great!" kind of empty promises.

Right now, it totally feels like the game is dying, and bear with me because this is important PGI folks:

At this point it is NOT anymore about how things are really going from your end. It is all about how the community perceives it. Cause if the majority here feels like the game is dying, then it will die soon. And there are no hopes or promises or smokescreens that can change that, because nothing hurts a game more than low morale.

Again, as usual, this is not coming from someone who hates the game. This is coming from someone who bought everything that could be bought and would be gladly buy more stuff. Someone who has been playing since August 2012 but now just can't do it anymore. In a way, PGI, you are "forcing" (relatively speeaking) me to stop playing. And honestly, that just doesn't make any sense.

It is incredible to think that after what you achieved with the amazing foundation of this game you have been, even thanks to your silence and your inability to communicate transparently what should I look forward to, you managed to drive me, my money and my enthusiasm away. An incredible feat.

You know how can you change that?

T A L K - T O - U S !

[RedDragon]

Lefteye, on 02 December 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Words of wisdom

Thanks for this really good post. I hope that at least someone from PGI reads it and sheds a tear because deep inside he recognizes the truth behind it all.

What I really ask myself time and again is: Where exactly does all that workload vanish to that PGI puts into the game? I'm perfectly willing to believe that the guys over at PGI work their behinds off for the game (at least they will actually work like average employees and not sit around in their offices doing nothing...), but we see nothing of that work.
Let's face it: A mechlab UI like Smurfy's or the countless other mech designers out there (which are ALL more user friendly than current UI 2.0) take about a week of dedicated work from a bunch of fans to create (who also have jobs and only do it in their free time). So why can a complete Dev team whose only job is to make the game not create something remotely close to such a UI in months of work? Yes, I know that only a few guys are working on the UI, but on other fronts it's the same. We have community managers who don't talk to the community, game designers who don't give a freck about game balance... not to talk about maps and game modes, again something that hobby designers can do in a few weeks just in their free time, with excellent results. And here we are, stuck with two game modes that are nearly identical from a designer's point of view for over a year now. The only thing that works reasonably well is the creation of mechs, the only thing PGI directly makes money off.
We know that there are (not few!) people working over at PGI, but what exactly are they doing? Where does all that work vanish to?

[Kotzi]

If UI2 is so important then just focus your capacities on that. No one demands all features at once. The community will embrace any progress. But there is so little to see. This UI2 preview contradicts your argument of its importance and thus its delaying of the other features. Please explain yourself.

[Xendojo]

Well said Lefteye.

@RedDragon:

Personally i am of the opinion that many man hours are being put into a console port. Just too many "console friendly" features have been added to be ignored. Not to mention that UI2.0 just screams XBOX LIVE. This would also offer an explanation to PGI's silence, the current one and past periods of silence as well.

Kotzi, on 02 December 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

If UI2 is so important then just focus your capacities on that. No one demands all features at once. The community will embrace any progress. But there is so little to see. This UI2 preview contradicts your argument of its importance and thus its delaying of the other features. Please explain yourself.

Quoted for truth. PGI please explain yourself.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

RedDragon, on 02 December 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

What I really ask myself time and again is: Where exactly does all that workload vanish to that PGI puts into the game? I'm perfectly willing to believe that the guys over at PGI work their behinds off for the game (at least they will actually work like average employees and not sit around in their offices doing nothing...), but we see nothing of that work.

This! A million times this! We know you are working, but it is really really really realy really hard to see from here! There's so many of us who have been into gaming for more than thirty years and while we don't want to tell you how to do your job, we KNOW it is not that hard, really, to do what you are trying to do. We are not saying you are lying, but PLEASE tell us what is going on, cause the time it is taking you to develop a User Interface and a Community WArfare is R I D I C U L O U S! In this day and age where single kids program amazing indie games, what you are *failing* to achieve with a few million dollars budget and more than a year is mindblowing.

Unless you find ways to explain it, and we would love to hear, at this point it is quite impossible to not pin this on incompetence.

Quote

Let's face it: A mechlab UI like Smurfy's or the countless other mech designers out there (which are ALL more user friendly than current UI 2.0) take about a week of dedicated work from a bunch of fans to create (who also have jobs and only do it in their free time). So why can a complete Dev team whose only job is to make the game not create something remotely close to such a UI in months of work?

Again, wise words. I am sure everyone can jump in and say "ooooh but it's not the same, this is a real game not a silly web thingy...". You are in the wrong if you think those who can code a "silly web thingy" in a few days wouldn't be able to make the real thing in an AAA game with enough money and a few months of times. They would, in fact, they do all the time. What is amazing here is how slow (and ineffective) PGI is being, not how difficult it is to make a UI for a game of this kind.

Edited by Lefteye, 02 December 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[xhrit]

Lefteye, on 02 December 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

You are in the wrong if you think those who can code a "silly web thingy" in a few days wouldn't be able to make the real thing in an AAA game with enough money and a few months of times. They would, in fact, they do all the time. What is amazing here is how slow (and ineffective) PGI is being, not how difficult it is to make a UI for a game of this kind.

So something that takes a hobbiest a week to make as a silly web thingie would take a professional developer months to reproduce in a AAA game engine? Sounds about right.

I wrote a whole srpg from scratch in 1 month for an open source game development contest. I tried to do the same thing, except using Cry Engine 3 Free SDK - 1 month later, I had almost gotten a working interface. Nothing game related though.

The reason being, when writing from scratch I could write my interface using pure C++. When using cry engine, they would want you to write your interface in scaleform (Flash), which would connect via Flowgraph to a Lua script, bound to a C++ function callback. It is 5 times more complex; which makes it really easy on the tail end, but upfront development is much more costly.

Also, nothing in CE3 was documented, and all the user help forums are in German. I don't know if professional projects have the same problem as projects that use the free SDK, but after wasting a whole month for nothing I swore I would never use Cry Engine for anything ever again.

[Rhaythe]

After the disappointing UI2.0 PT, I'm seriously debating putting this game on ice for quite some time and playing other things.

[shotokan5]

It would have been to give the ok if it had not been tested on thanksgiving day? Great idea when almost everyone in the United States are with their family's and not playing games. I said yes because I had a very good feeling about DX11. At this point I would take a rubber duck. Three weeks no real patch. You should also explain why we are not running the 3.5.4 engine now which has much better performance and have cleared up many of the bugs you are wasting your time fixing. I have spoken to several experts on the engine and they say that their is no reason it can not be done unless you are to cheap. Their are programs which would give you no excuse to say it can not be done. It also has much better textures which will auto update the game fully, maybe to easy. For less bugs and better performance. Then put in IU2.0 with DX11 and other feature's. As for IU2.0 most of it is un necessary and makes things to complex. All it is, is eye caddy and does nothing that will give the customers what they really need.

[shotokan5]

I also added this post so maybe someone will read it put in the darn post with some chances. Put in the DARN 3.5.4 cry engine which can easily update this game and fix many of the problems that you are now trying to fix. I have spoken to a number of experts who say their is no reason it cant be done unless your cheap. I did vote yes because the DX11 went so well. But at this point I would take a rubber duck. If it is to hard to really answer real questions then get someone who can. Bad news that is the truth is better than none at all. At least talk to your customers or close down the game and admit you failed. That would go down better than nothing. Look at the huge numbers of votes. Sorry but it was Thanksgiving in the United States and we are with family's not playing games, Have it sometime later this week then everyone can see and really vote on it. To you Mr. Bullock get your sails up or get new ones. I know you get my drift. What will make or break this game is not you but the customers, talk to them.

Edited by shotokan5, 02 December 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Deathsani]

I feel like the speculations about a console port are completely unfounded because:

1. Console ports are insanely expensive and have a lower profitability with small audiences
2. Competing with big name companies will crush PGI (they couldn't even compete with a fan production of the last version of this game)
3. There is no evidence other than how the new UI "feels"

[Heffay]

Deathsani, on 02 December 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

1. Console ports are insanely expensive and have a lower profitability with small audiences
2. Competing with big name companies will crush PGI (they couldn't even compete with a fan production of the last version of this game)

1. Small audiences? Console game sales dwarf PC sales, don't they?

2. I'm pretty sure they are crushing the 50 concurrent users that MW:LL fielded on a good night. Not to mention MW:LL is still out there and you can go there and play it today if you want. You'll be extremely lonely if you do, but to say PGI couldn't compete with it... that's really funny.

[Riptor]

Remember the 3rd PV patch?

The Devs where so busy working that no one had the time to log onto the forums and tell us that there would be no seperate que between 3rd PV and 1st PV.

Infact only after the patch did we get several posts from the Devs.. you know.. after **** hit hyperdrive.

But before the patch? Guys where wayyyyyyyyyy to busy to communicate with their customers.

True story! (sadly)

From beginning to now this whole project was one giant PR disaster and the real decisions are made by money grubbing suits who wouldnt know the difference between this game and bloody Farm Ville even if it jumped them in the face.

Heffay, on 02 December 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

2. I'm pretty sure they are crushing the 50 concurrent users that MW:LL fielded on a good night. Not to mention MW:LL is still out there and you can go there and play it today if you want. You'll be extremely lonely if you do, but to say PGI couldn't compete with it... that's really funny.

Well no surprise there, after all all progress on that game was suspended because PGI had a "friendly" talk with the creators.. no pressure of course... the guys only made sure that no one else would ever be able to continue their work for... reasons... reasons that totaly have nothing to do with PGI/IGP throwing around their corporate weight.. no sir absolutely not.

However the project wasnt mass marketable anyways ill give you that, it required the crysis expac and i dont know many people who where willing at the time to get crysis just to play an unfinished mechwarrior mod. Even thought it won some awards it wasnt that well known either... go figure.

Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if development had continued and all the audience that MWOs hype attracted had looked for alternatives. Good thing though that PGI stepped in to stop this from ever happening.

Edited by Riptor, 02 December 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Did we all read the Publisher's comments in the UI 2.0 thread, posted today?

Quote

Thanks for the Feedback everyone.

I would like re-iterate that the purpose of this preview was first and foremost to check the functionality of several added screens. This is not to be confused for completion, or that we are disregarding feedback on previously previewed screens, but rather that we are completing the skeleton of UI 2.0 before focusing on the skin. As a living project, many aspects of the aesthetic and flow of UI 2.0 can and will change, and you can rest assured that these changes will be based on your feedback as the UI is fleshed out.

So, the UI preview was not a preview of a complete product. Keep that in mind - what many people are calling "bugs" and "deficiencies" are actually incomplete features.

[Blurry]

i agree but remember they only talk in 140 characters or less.
that is the world we live in.

expect nothing from them they dont have a clue as above!

[Blurry]

Prosperity Park, on 02 December 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Did we all read the Publisher's comments in the UI 2.0 thread, posted today?




So, the UI preview was not a preview of a complete product. Keep that in mind - what many people are calling "bugs" and "deficiencies" are actually incomplete features.

So all this time this is all they have for it? ok sorry game over time to give up and move on. It aint gonna happen not in this game. Not now and not ever.

So PGI sharted the bed so bad they need to go to consoles to make the game viable? Sorry if I am a publisher and I saw this I would wonder what is actually going on.
I do wonder like the rest where is that work going?

Edited by Blurry, 02 December 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

So, UI was supposed to launch in November. December was mentioned only if some disaster happened. This is what Bryan said in the NgNg podcast back in September, while explaining how come UI2.0 wasn't making it at launch.

Now it is December, and according to the quoted text they are still working on the skeleton.

Considering this is a new, huge delay (honestly anbd realistically: when do you all think it will actually going to go live?), isn't it really not nice at all that they don't have a word to explain how in hell is it possible that they never ever get even remotely close to getting a date right?

I mean, when in September you say "November", and then in December you are still months away from launching, is it reasonable that I ask "why are you so bad at your job?".

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 02 December 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Well no surprise there, after all all progress on that game was suspended because PGI had a "friendly" talk with the creators.. no pressure of course... the guys only made sure that no one else would ever be able to continue their work for... reasons... reasons that totaly have nothing to do with PGI/IGP throwing around their corporate weight.. no sir absolutely not.

However the project wasnt mass marketable anyways ill give you that, it required the crysis expac and i dont know many people who where willing at the time to get crysis just to play an unfinished mechwarrior mod. Even thought it won some awards it wasnt that well known either... go figure.

Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if development had continued and all the audience that MWOs hype attracted had looked for alternatives. Good thing though that PGI stepped in to stop this from ever happening.

MW:LL had all the support the could get, and it was still a ridiculously tiny community that played it. Even if development had continued, the player base never would have grown.

MW:LL is not and never has been a competitor to MWO. Both still exist out there, and you can see what everyone chose.

[Deathsani]

@Heffay, I didn't mean to say that console audiences were small. Merely that niche titles have a much harder time surviving on consoles than they do on PC because there is much less overhead than at a console.

[Corvus Antaka]

god forbid the devs are actually working on content instead of communicating here.