232 replies to this topic

[Roland]

YueFei, on 25 December 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

The NFL didn't need to implement weight limits, did they? Teams can feel free to put 11 players all weighing 350+ pounds on the field if they want to.

But them have salary caps, which is effectively the same thing.

The reality is, it's effectively impossible to balance the game such that a light mech is exactly equal in total battle value to a 100 ton assault mech... Because the fundamental basis of mechwarrior, battletech, isn't designed as such.

Tonnage limits improve the game... We used them in all of the leagues in MW4, because without them, it was stupid.

[Felicitatem Parco]

fil5000, on 09 January 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

I think Bryan's said (I think it might have been on twitter?) that the intended tonnage is 60 per person, with 480 tons being from when the game was still 8v8.

That's about right, they used to use the 240-480 numbers back before it was a 12v12 game.

The Mechs in this game range from 20 <-> 100 tons, with 60 Tons being the "average" sized Mech (not half of 100, like some people might assume).

[RainbowC22]

Quote

[color=#959595]The first order of business will be meeting the tonnage restrictions. Each team tonnage total must fall between [240] and [480] tons. Players can bring up to [8] BattleMechs with them to battle. For the purposes of lore, these are transported in a DropShip[/color]

Ok, I can understand the bring only 3 Mechs, because the drop ship can only carry 3 mechs. Simple.

I do NOT understand tho, is the Tonnage Restrictions.... Because, since when is war like a football game? or soccer? or hockey? Who is the Referee out there disqualifying Mechs from entering into War because they weight too much?

It's WAR, there are NO laws/rules in war! If one side brings an entire army of Assaults, and completely wipes out the enemy side, the enemy side should have thought up a better strategy and got better mechs, weapons, and pilots! Plus as many people pointed out, what if everyone brought in 3 100 ton assault mechs each? What if you only own 1 mech? what if you like playing only 1 Mech, or have only 1 mech actually out fitted for battle, and you can't play it? When are we getting 4v4, 8v8, 16v16, and the ability to make parties that are between 5-11 players!

Edited by RainbowC22, 17 January 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[Texas Merc]

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Ok, I can understand the bring only 3 Mechs, because the drop ship can only carry 3 mechs. Simple.

I do NOT understand tho, is the Tonnage Restrictions.... Because, since when is war like a football game? or soccer? or hockey? Who is the Referee out there disqualifying Mechs from entering into War because they weight too much?

It's WAR, there are NO laws/rules in war! If one side brings an entire army of Assaults, and completely wipes out the enemy side, the enemy side should have thought up a better strategy and got better mechs, weapons, and pilots! Plus as many people pointed out, what if everyone brought in 3 100 ton assault mechs each? What if you only own 1 mech? what if you like playing only 1 Mech, or have only 1 mech actually out fitted for battle, and you can't play it? When are we getting 4v4, 8v8, 16v16, and the ability to make parties that are between 5-11 players!

Wow, have you even read the design pillars of this game?

Not that they matter anymore.

Edited by Texas Merc, 17 January 2014 - 02:46 AM.

[RainbowC22]

Texas Merc, on 17 January 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

Wow, have you even read the design pillars of this game?

Not that they matter anymore.

Probably not. I only read the things it has quoted on the first post. If things have changed, it should say it on the first post!

[Flyto]

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

I do NOT understand tho, is the Tonnage Restrictions.... Because, since when is war like a football game? or soccer? or hockey?

War is not like a football game, because war is not a game. Games need to be fair to be fun. Wars do not need to be fun, and thus do not need to be fair.

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

It's WAR, there are NO laws/rules in war!

No, it's a game, and it has rules.

[RainbowC22]

Flyto, on 17 January 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

War is not like a football game, because war is not a game. Games need to be fair to be fun. Wars do not need to be fun, and thus do not need to be fair.

No, it's a game, and it has rules.

True, but why a Tonnage Rule? It doesn't make sense, and will **** off a lot of people, and will be unfair to a lot of people too. I like to see every 12v12 match as two factions fighting over an area. So why would they limit how much tonnage they will send to fight in that area for resources they want? Number of people to send, sure. I can even see a limit on number of types of mechs. Like only 2 assaults, 3 heavies, 3 Mediums, and 4 lights per team. But not total Tonnage limits across the entire team!

[grayson marik]

... What ever... private matches, when?

[C E Dwyer]

I think the way its being reported, and with the alleged tonnage limits its just an example of how PGI's game desgners are showing how utterly out of touch they are, if they think more restrictions are going to make more people play this game.

people are leaving without them designing a system where people can't drop in their favorite mech.

Add knock downs and the supposed lifting of 12 mans and unrestricted pre-mades launching with singletons which mercs (not mercany untis) are supposed to be, come this announced april and you can remove about 20% of the active population, to add to those that will be forced to stop playing when UI2 is launched without people being able to configure joysticks in options and you have this game shut by autumn.

Edited by Cathy, 20 January 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[LordSkippy]

This proposed public match launcher is not going to work well at all. It assumes everyone will be flexible for the good of the group. With mostly strangers, of unknown quality, you will not get this. Instead, you'll get a few people who refuse to drop in anything other than an Atlas. A few more quitting, because they either can't take the 'Mech they wanted or the C-Bill bonus dropped too low. Ending with players deciding to quit playing all together, because it's too much of a pain to drop.

And that's not even taking into account griefers intentionally trying to disrupt the launch process, just to quit the match and find another launch group to grief while eating their popcorn and laughing at the drama.

Why go through all of this, when public matches can work similar to how they work now. Just add a sliding scale of weight limits to groups, based on the number of players in the group. The matchmaker should be able to find two lights to compliment the two man group that wants to take two Atlases. The larger the pre-made, the more restrictive the weight limits will need to be, in order to find complementing pre-mades or PUGs. But, you eliminate a costly to develop mechanic that is only going to frustrate players.

[oldradagast]

Airborne Thunder, on 23 December 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Why does playing this game have to be so complicated? I just want to play the game. I want to click Launch and without any arguing with other players or playing ebay bid sniper to pick a map get into a match. It is fine the way it is now. There should be a &quot;classic mode&quot; where I don't have to deal with any of this SCRAP. What if I only want to run my Atlas or Battlemaster? Am I going to have to fight with other people in the lobby to get to play mechs I own? What if I want to grind an Assault mech for XP to unlock the Master Module? Am I going to be told &quot;sorry that mech is too heavy, find a different one&quot;. If I am reading this correctly there is no way I am spending money on the Clan Collection to only be told my mechs are too heavy and I can't play them. I can tell you right now that if there is a mech I own that I want to play I am going to play it regardless of peer pressure from my teamates. I didn't spend real money on Founders mechs, Phoenix mechs and Hero mechs to be told I can't use them.

Agreed.

This proposed idea is lunacy.

I have no interest in basically bargaining with a bunch of people I don't know online about which map we're on (and that's going to be monetized?!) or some other drek. I like the concept of tonnage balance, but I can easily see tonnage limits stalling the game out completely as a bunch of griefers refuse to play anything other than their meta-highlander, etc.

This is why I don't bother playing in 12-mans - the amount of time spent between matches was greater than the time spent IN the match, plus we got "failed to find match" so often the whole effort was futile.

The main appeal of this game is the fast-play - the ability to hit "Launch" and go kill stuff. Customers will be lost if every game turns into some sort of tactical planning session where everyone stubbornly refuses to change maps, mechs, etc. Or, on the flip side, if you're always playing a map or mech you hate, why keep playing?

[Biza]

hmmmmm

This game is already boring enough, the grind for new mechs is tedious and annoying. Making it take longer to grind? How about implement roles and the sort before this?

Edit: fix the damn elo system, it sucks and makes no sense. Should be more stat based... Those things should be first.

Edited by Biza, 20 January 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[WarHippy]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

The problem isn't one guy in an Atlas (or one guy in a Raven) ... it's that the perception (right or not) exists that the only truly viable 'mechs in the game are Assault or Light. A well-built and well-piloted 'mech, regardless of the chassis or variant, should be viable.

If it is a perception problem they need to work on changing the perception so that people want to use those mechs instead of forcing them to use the mechs against their will. If it is a problem of not being viable then artificially increasing its use by forcing people to use it doesn't magically make it viable.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Limits or drop conditions increase variety and make the game play more interesting (see Proxis or Marik Civil War for more information).

That is debatable. When anyone can play what they want you have the most options for compositions, but this requires the devs to make all of the mech classes an interesting choice. Limits on drops only give the illusion of increased variety up until one group comes up with what becomes the most efficient cookie cutter composition possible and everyone follows their lead.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

When people feel like they "must" bring any specific type of 'mech to win or to have fun, it limits variety and the game gets stale. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to pry some people out of their Highlanders or Jenners is to enforce restrictions.

So in order to not make people feel like they must bring a specific type of mech you want to force them into a situation where they must bring a specific type of mech in order to play with their friends or not play at all? Sounds like a great idea if you don't mind it doing the same damn thing you are complaining about but to a different group of players. If Highlanders and Jenners are what they enjoy piloting why do you have to pry it from them, or is it that if they are not having fun the way you think they should be having fun you will force them to have fun your way or be punished?

[Rebas Kradd]

Introduce tonnage limits on everyone and you take away players' choice of mech. Take away players' choice and you only frustrate players. That's a game pillar that I hope PGI doesn't stray from. Tonnage limits needs to be only for players who voluntarily place themselves under such limits, not for pugs.

The job of increasing players' awareness of the strengths and weaknesses of mediums and heavies, well, that job belongs to us, the other players. And we're doing it.

[Sidekick]

WarHippy, on 20 January 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

That is debatable. When anyone can play what they want you have the most options for compositions, but this requires the devs to make all of the mech classes an interesting choice. Limits on drops only give the illusion of increased variety up until one group comes up with what becomes the most efficient cookie cutter composition possible and everyone follows their lead.

Err...

I am sorry.

But ain´t this what is happening? Or better: what has happend one year ago?

Mediums Inferior to all, many chassis unbearable bad due geometry choices/design issues and the current weight limit (there is one: 1200 tons) pushes the overall team composition to the heavy side. The current game philosophy favors heavy armor and hitting power over mobility and weapon diversity. Map design priorizes mechs with high weapon mounts, low slung guns are mostly inferior to the same system mounted in the shoulders.

So, right now, we have a really limited choice as players if we decide NOT to nerf ourselfes.

Smart team building rules (Stock, faction, Battle Value, total team value, tonnage limitations) would actually enforce game variety while hindering individual freedom of selection.

But that´s the point. Because we have the freedom to select our mechs as we like, we can´t select the mechs we like if we want to enjoy the game. So essentialy the freedom of the mech means the slavery of the meta.

[WarHippy]

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Err...

I am sorry.

But ain´t this what is happening? Or better: what has happend one year ago?

It is happening now because all we have is deathmatch, and watered down versions of capture the flag and point capture. If they had role warfare fleshed so that the different classes had their place, and if they put out game modes that took advantage of role warfare instead of deathmatch like we have now then things would be different. There are better ways to spice things up without shoehorning people into mechs they don't want to play.

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Mediums Inferior to all, many chassis unbearable bad due geometry choices/design issues and the current weight limit (there is one: 1200 tons) pushes the overall team composition to the heavy side. The current game philosophy favors heavy armor and hitting power over mobility and weapon diversity. Map design priorizes mechs with high weapon mounts, low slung guns are mostly inferior to the same system mounted in the shoulders.

Again, why not make mediums a viable option instead of making people play them and pretending all is balanced because now people are playing them regardless of the fact they are being forced into it instead of willingly doing it. Change the philosophy not the options available to us.

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

So, right now, we have a really limited choice as players if we decide NOT to nerf ourselfes.

But that´s the point. Because we have the freedom to select our mechs as we like, we can´t select the mechs we like if we want to enjoy the game. So essentialy the freedom of the mech means the slavery of the meta.

As it stands there are poorer choices in mechs(though one can still do well with them) than what is considered best, but at least we have the option to use whatever mech we want unlike with weight limits.

[Rebas Kradd]

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Mediums Inferior to all

No, they're not.

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Map design priorizes mechs with high weapon mounts, low slung guns are mostly inferior to the same system mounted in the shoulders.

So, you want just flat maps?

Sidekick, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Smart team building rules (Stock, faction, Battle Value, total team value, tonnage limitations) would actually enforce game variety

No, they wouldn't. They'd lead to a far more unbalanced game than we have now.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 20 January 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

WarHippy, on 20 January 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

So in order to not make people feel like they must bring a specific type of mech you want to force them into a situation where they must bring a specific type of mech in order to play with their friends or not play at all? Sounds like a great idea if you don't mind it doing the same damn thing you are complaining about but to a different group of players. If Highlanders and Jenners are what they enjoy piloting why do you have to pry it from them, or is it that if they are not having fun the way you think they should be having fun you will force them to have fun your way or be punished?

I'm not necessarily a big fan of the launch process as it's currently described to us, but frankly, yes (but it's not "my" way).

Almost every team game has roles that each player is expected to fill, the difference here is that we get to figure out what those roles are, and which ones we're good at, within the limits placed on us by PGI ... right now, those limits are 12 mechs, 240-1200 total tons, pre-made groups of 2-4, or one pre-made group of 12 ... pretty loose. Check any of the upcoming competitive leagues (MRBC, RHOD, Marik Civil War, etc.) they all have either class or weight restrictions for their matches, because it make the game more interesting and challenging.

If PGI wants to impose class restrictions (i.e.: 3/3/3/3) or weight limits (720 +/- 60 tons), etc., then it's their game, they can change the rules ... I'm prepared to adapt, because I want to keep playing. I'd rather not class restrictions, but weight limits are a reasonable compromise.

This is one more reason why I believe they should have waited until Community Warfare was live before "releasing" the game ... all we really have right now is the core mechanics of what this game will look like in another year.

[RainbowC22]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 20 January 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Almost every team game has roles that each player is expected to fill, the difference here is that we get to figure out what those roles are, and which ones we're good at, within the limits placed on us by PGI ...

..... I don't know what game YOU have been playing, but so far MWO only has 1 role to play. That role is to find the enemy everyone else is shooting at, and shooting at them too. That is the only role there is in MWO. There is no support, there is no medic, there is no defender, there is no tank. It's 12v12 TEAM DEATH MATCH. There are NO roles at all. No matter how you go about the game, in the end, it comes down to whoever can focus fire at the other guys the most wins.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

RainbowC22, on 20 January 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

... There are NO roles at all. No matter how you go about the game, in the end, it comes down to whoever can focus fire at the other guys the most wins.

Not disagreeing with you ... I just see it a different way ... some people are better at doing this in a light, medium, heavy, or assault 'mech. Some people are really good finding the bad guys first, or wearing down armor from a distance without taking meaningful hits, or at finding the one weak spot on a 'mech and exploiting it, or at setting others up for a kill shot. The game should not be AssaultWarrior:Online, and people with different skills can contribute to a win.

RainbowC22, on 20 January 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

..... I don't know what game YOU have been playing, but so far MWO only has 1 role to play. That role is to find the enemy everyone else is shooting at, and shooting at them too.

You know what, maybe we have been playing different games ... the game I play can and does have more depth than that.