229 replies to this topic

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

...

Brah, yah ignoring me?

Common post your stats, I just want to confirm my suspicions that you have not played the chassis and all the variants you be dissing..

Me, i play and master every single variant of a chassis that I like...

You don't see me rate and review - kintaros, cicadas, quickdraws, jagers, stalkers, highlanders... All because I haven't played it yet and maybe never will..

Btw, while tekadept like shawks... I hate them ;p or rather I hate the cockpit layout in particular.. That is something that your "list" does not take into account, the "feel" of piloting a mech and of course arm mounted weapons..

Btw, as a side note - do you gas throttle and arm lock?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Btw, while tekadept like shawks... I hate them ;p or rather I hate the cockpit layout in particular.. That is something that your "list" does not take into account, the "feel" of piloting a mech and of course arm mounted weapons..

I find it intriuging, that while people curse over the (P) Locust... they tend to get upset if you complain about the Shad's "Tunnel Vision" window.

[Victor Morson]

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Brah, yah ignoring me?

Must have missed a post, I'll check when I get back.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Common post your stats, I just want to confirm my suspicions that you have not played the chassis and all the variants you be dissing..

You are damned right I don't have stats for Kintaros, Dragons, Commandos... I don't need to. I know ALL I need to know about them from the barrels of my guns.

Again, this is not just random judgement. I can lay out very, very valid reasons each of these 'mechs is terrible and they are all extremely objective about their strengths & weaknesses. This isn't wild shot in the dark judgements.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Me, i play and master every single variant of a chassis that I like...

I'm a master of Centurions, Cataphracts, Highlanders, Trebuchets and most recently Shadow Hawks. It's pretty mild compared to a lot of people's list. I'm working on Victors.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

You don't see me rate and review - kintaros, cicadas, quickdraws, jagers, stalkers, highlanders... All because I haven't played it yet and maybe never will..

Again, I don't need to drive them to rate them. I've vetted them in team scenarios, the community has vetted them for very logical and well thought out reasons, and they have proven failures time and time again as enemies.

What you are saying is "You can't say a spear is REALLY inferior to a shotgun, until you try to kill someone with a spear." I think Mr. Shotgun in this scenario doesn't need that experience.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Btw, while tekadept like shawks... I hate them ;p or rather I hate the cockpit layout in particular.. That is something that your "list" does not take into account, the "feel" of piloting a mech and of course arm mounted weapons..

You know why? The cockpit layout is one of the best features of the 'mech. It's not about feel, it's about the fact the guns are SO high and level with the cockpit you can ALWAYS hit targets over ridges if you can see them. No worries about shots hitting blockers.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Btw, as a side note - do you gas throttle and arm lock?

Gas throttle is for noobs. - not newbies. It's something all new players should turn off immediately. Anyone who intentionally leaves it on is making a huge mistake and making their 'mech way more difficult to pilot.* **

* There is an effective way to use this with the joystick though, so that's an exception. I don't endorse joystick play but there is a fairly solid mouse-joystick combo method out there that works alright.

** There are actually a handful of exceptions for pilots running mechanical keyboards and are OK with a hand workout.

Arm lock? Hell yes. I'm a bit odd in that I run Arm Lock off until I zone a target and want to snap in on it, but most people just do the reverse.

Doesn't mean I don't use my arms when I want them but I'll be damned if I miss out on 100% instant convergence.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 December 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

You are damned right I don't have stats for Kintaros, Dragons, Commandos... I don't need to. I know ALL I need to know about them from the barrels of my guns.

Again, this is not just random judgement. I can lay out very, very valid reasons each of these 'mechs is terrible and they are all extremely objective about their strengths & weaknesses. This isn't wild shot in the dark judgements.

Thanks for making that crystal clear and making my day really!

It should be on a disclaimer - I haven't tried it but my word is gospel truth and you know some dude who knows some dude sayz that iz cool.. YOLO!

I don't like poptarting, but since I got into victors I tried it once just to see what it was all about.

I suggest run a dragon or even run a hunchie - play it right and then come back and tell us that is good or bad..

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

What you are saying is "You can't say a spear is REALLY inferior to a shotgun, until you try to kill someone with a spear." I think Mr. Shotgun in this scenario doesn't need that experience.

Its about knowing what a chassis is good at or not, Brah...

Taken to the ridiculous extreme, when fighting inside a wooden barrel I would rather have a rusty kitchen knife than a shiny new assault riffle..

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

The cockpit layout is one of the best features of the 'mech. It's not about feel, it's about the fact the guns are SO high and level with the cockpit you can ALWAYS hit targets over ridges if you can see them. No worries about shots hitting blockers.

Your talking about high mounted hardpoints. I'm talking about how the cockpit is visually limiting.

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Gas throttle is for noobs. - not newbies. It's something all new players should turn off immediately. Anyone who intentionally leaves it on is making a huge mistake and making their 'mech way more difficult to pilot.*

Spectating PEEFsmash, I'm thinking he uses gas throttle that is why when playing his streams sound like a starcraft convention with a mechanical kb..

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Arm lock? Hell yes. I'm a bit odd in that I run Arm Lock off until I zone a target and want to snap in on it, but most people just do the reverse.

Doesn't mean I don't use my arms when I want them but I'll be damned if I miss out on 100% instant convergence.

Yah I run the same way too.. insta convergence is a bonus...

[Atlai]

Just to add in for Dragon love




I know its on the wrong screen, but you can still tell its a Dragon by the cockpit, just wanted to show it could be a relative mech on the field, i was the last man on my team and i dualed the last guy on the other team for victory.


Sure those numbers arent great, especially since i dont have any other screens to back it up with, and im not that good of a player but Dragons arent horrible, they are just hard mode.

[luxebo]

Mason West, on 04 December 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Just to add in for Dragon love

I know its on the wrong screen, but you can still tell its a Dragon by the cockpit, just wanted to show it could be a relative mech on the field, i was the last man on my team and i dualed the last guy on the other team for victory.

Sure those numbers arent great, especially since i dont have any other screens to back it up with, and im not that good of a player but Dragons arent horrible, they are just hard mode.

But Victor is saying that Dragons are not the best starting point for someone who has just started.

Speaking of Dragons, I really wish I saved my 7 kills, 5 kill assists, and 857 damage game I just had. But I skimmed through too fast and didn't take a picture.

I had many good games with the Dragon trial (DRG-5N©) but it doesn't mean that the Dragon as a whole is good. Some games I get less than 3 digits worth of damage. Some games I either kill assist every single enemy or kill every single enemy (top kill count for me on the trial Dragon is 10 kills, but I admit that I steal a lot of kills in some matches, accidentally. top assist count is 12.)

Edit:

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Must have missed a post, I'll check when I get back.

You are damned right I don't have stats for Kintaros, Dragons, Commandos... I don't need to. I know ALL I need to know about them from the barrels of my guns.

Again, this is not just random judgement. I can lay out very, very valid reasons each of these 'mechs is terrible and they are all extremely objective about their strengths & weaknesses. This isn't wild shot in the dark judgements.

I'm a master of Centurions, Cataphracts, Highlanders, Trebuchets and most recently Shadow Hawks. It's pretty mild compared to a lot of people's list. I'm working on Victors.

Again, I don't need to drive them to rate them. I've vetted them in team scenarios, the community has vetted them for very logical and well thought out reasons, and they have proven failures time and time again as enemies.

What you are saying is "You can't say a spear is REALLY inferior to a shotgun, until you try to kill someone with a spear." I think Mr. Shotgun in this scenario doesn't need that experience.

You know why? The cockpit layout is one of the best features of the 'mech. It's not about feel, it's about the fact the guns are SO high and level with the cockpit you can ALWAYS hit targets over ridges if you can see them. No worries about shots hitting blockers.

Gas throttle is for noobs. - not newbies. It's something all new players should turn off immediately. Anyone who intentionally leaves it on is making a huge mistake and making their 'mech way more difficult to pilot.*

* There is an effective way to use this with the joystick though, so that's an exception. I don't endorse joystick play but there is a fairly solid mouse-joystick combo method out there that works alright.

Arm lock? Hell yes. I'm a bit odd in that I run Arm Lock off until I zone a target and want to snap in on it, but most people just do the reverse.

Doesn't mean I don't use my arms when I want them but I'll be damned if I miss out on 100% instant convergence.

I actually kept trottle decay. Reason is for the lights to turn whenever needed. I also kept my ~-0 buttons as full stop to full trottle. So I actually rarely use my up arrow and down arrow keys for trottle up/down. (No joystick). It doesn't effect me in playing at all because I don't use a normal trottle setting and really is an alternate key, so I can decide whether I want it or not. Arm Lock of course I use. In fact, I leave it on almost permanently. Never have to change it back down. Maybe that will change as I master more mechs.

Edited by luxebo, 04 December 2013 - 11:07 PM.

[Atlai]

luxebo, on 04 December 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

But Victor is saying that Dragons are not the best starting point for someone who has just started.

Speaking of Dragons, I really wish I saved my 7 kills, 5 kill assists, and 857 damage game I just had. But I skimmed through too fast and didn't take a picture.

True, they are not good platforms for beginners.

And man thats a bummer, would have liked to see that, not that i dont believe you though.

[Mycrus]

luxebo, on 04 December 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

But Victor is saying that Dragons are not the best starting point for someone who has just started.

One of the best infighters in my guild is apupa, he started with dragons and was the better for it..

It is not a forgiving chassis - but it teaches you a lot about piloting, positioning, and gunnery..

The problem with new kids gravitating to magical meta builds is that they are "carried" by how ez snooze mode it. Once the meta changes, they either rage quit or rage on the forumz..

I was an atlas pilot that moved to lights and mediums when the pee pee cee + goose meta reigned.. I learned where to hit stalkers and highlanders to neuter their firepower...

There was this Russian unit that wrecks us every single drop... After the nurfs they simply could not adapt to changing playstyle and they weren't scary anymore to say the least..

So the morale of this story is build your real skillz and don't go for the "meta" for the sake of the "meta"...

Good pilots in AC+PPC builds will wreak face when protected by lurms, agro lights, and a decent brawling team..

[Victor Morson]

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Thanks for making that crystal clear and making my day really!

It should be on a disclaimer - I haven't tried it but my word is gospel truth and you know some dude who knows some dude sayz that iz cool.. YOLO!

I think newbies that are interested in designing a good 'mech will see the arguments here. I hope they understand that you are basically steering them towards terrible chassis and builds because you have basically have a wish to see TT style builds in the game, even though that's not how it works.

Like you don't need to practice with a flintlock to know an M16 is a better gun, you don't need to play a Locust to realize it's {Scrap}. There's objective reasoning for it and experience to back it up.

Why is the Dragon bad? Terrible hitboxes and a bad hard point layout, plus a lack of jump capability (which is used for gliding in brawls as much as it is pop tarting) makes it flat out second fiddle to other 'mechs in it's weight range.

With 'mechs like the Yen-Lo-Wang, I have blown off so many arms as an afterthought, I don't need to experience that first hand to realize it sucks.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I don't like poptarting, but since I got into victors I tried it once just to see what it was all about.

I suggest run a dragon or even run a hunchie - play it right and then come back and tell us that is good or bad..

Again, I don't need to drive complete junk to know it's junk. Dragons are like literal speed bumps that end up road kill on the way to bigger targets. Their gun load outs are horrible, outside of the Flame. Which I keep giving a pass.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Its about knowing what a chassis is good at or not, Brah...

Taken to the ridiculous extreme, when fighting inside a wooden barrel I would rather have a rusty kitchen knife than a shiny new assault riffle..

Except there is no wooden barrel. You're taking your rusty kitchen knife onto an open field.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Your talking about high mounted hardpoints. I'm talking about how the cockpit is visually limiting.

Again, worth it for the hardpoint accuracy. Perfectly straight shots.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Spectating PEEFsmash, I'm thinking he uses gas throttle that is why when playing his streams sound like a starcraft convention with a mechanical kb..

OK I take back what I said and there are a VERY small handful of pilots who drive push-throttle, but do it in a very funky way, that make it work.

Most people should turn it off.

Mason West, on 04 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

True, they are not good platforms for beginners.

For anyone, in particular beginners.

The only people who should be considering Dragons are people who have a ton of nostalgia for them on Table Top and want to own one because of it. Everyone else should look elsewhere.

That's the reason I own an Awesome. Not enough of a reason to master it.

[Victor Morson]

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

One of the best infighters in my guild is apupa, he started with dragons and was the better for it..

Honestly the poor cadets have already been 25 matches of pure nightmare fuel running stock trials. I think they've earned their "starting in total junk" badges. They don't need to spend their hard earned cbills on more of it.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

It is not a forgiving chassis - but it teaches you a lot about piloting, positioning, and gunnery..

Opposed to the Shadow Hawk which teaches you about piloting, positioning, gunnery and jumping.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

The problem with new kids gravitating to magical meta builds is that they are "carried" by how ez snooze mode it. Once the meta changes, they either rage quit or rage on the forumz..

This has been a problem.... never?

Never once has this been an issue. Meta players adapt to the meta and are GLAD for changes to it. We only complain if it's either stale or really stupid, like Ghost Heat.

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I was an atlas pilot that moved to lights and mediums when the pee pee cee + goose meta reigned.. I learned where to hit stalkers and highlanders to neuter their firepower...

There was this Russian unit that wrecks us every single drop... After the nurfs they simply could not adapt to changing playstyle and they weren't scary anymore to say the least..

So the morale of this story is build your real skillz and don't go for the "meta" for the sake of the "meta"...

"One Russian unit that used to stomp us into the ground was slow keeping up with the meta, so remember kids, it's a futile effort and nobody can. Except all the units that have. Which is all the rest."

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Good pilots in AC+PPC builds will wreak face when protected by lurms, agro lights, and a decent brawling team..

Good pilots in AC+PPC builds will wreck face when protected by lrms, lights and a brawling team 24/7.

Mason West, on 04 December 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Just to add in for Dragon love

Why do people keep posting subpar runs in pug games as something to be proud of?

One of my teammates Shadow Hawks scored almost 1.2k damage recently. Kind of puts this in perspective and it's not really selling me on the error of my ways in recommending new people steer clear of the Dragon.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 December 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

1: Scores don't mean anything in a pug except that people stopped and let you shoot them.
2: Those aren't very good numbers, doubly so for an assault.

I mean comparison, I can pull nearly 1k damage in a 55 ton Shadow Hawk far more consistently than you can limp in with 500ish. In fact, I've seen much higher damage totals from Jenners.

Finally remember the Awesome's big problem is huge hitboxes and bad engine caps, meaning if your teammates draw more fire than you, yeah you can do damage. But that's about it.

1k damage... yeh and they didnt stop and let you shoot em.

i dont aim to do most damage but i aim to do precision damage. as you can tell im also on top with match score in my games, that is because i take out vital areas "consistently"

btw my numbers are just fine, take a closer look; iv beaten the bigger assaults in all respects.

you cant play all the assault the same, by thinking you can face tank everything. try moving your mech while shooting, it helps in the awesome. legs are awesome! use em!

i have more screen shots, heck i could even just play a game now and screen shot them as i go.

[Tekadept]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Why do people keep posting subpar runs in pug games as something to be proud of?

Why do you keep trying to force your opinion down peoples throats?

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Good pilots in AC+PPC builds will wreck face 24/7.

Tell that to the poptart highlanders I used to take out in my dragon back in 8mans. My face came out as pretty as it went in. But of course, they musn't have been as 1337 as you hey?

Edited by Tekadept, 04 December 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[Grey Black]

Okay, I think everyone is missing the point here. Any mech can be good in the hands of the right pilot and in the right circumstances. I don't think anyone will debate that. Hell, my wang is my go to mech when I've had a bad losing streak. In saying that, I also realize that the Shadowhawk is strictly better. I may love the Orion, but it's still strictly worse than the Cataphract. This is a tiering of sorts. Not every mech is a top tier competitor for the average player. People who are crying about the Wang have poured blood, sweat, and tears into the mech to make it good. Compare it to the Ilya now. Which one is better and more worthy of a higher tier? Maybe not 1.5 (I would rank the wang at 2.5 personally), but definitely not 5 stars.

In saying that, the Centurion itself deserves 5 stars IMHO. Simply put, it is the single best medium chassis in the game. Screw that, it's the single best Mech in the game, second only to the Almighty Cataphract. It's raw survivability and amazing hitboxes with the speed you can pull off in it make it a thing of wonder.

Also, the rating for the Locust and Kintaro should be lower.

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Why is the Dragon bad? Terrible hitboxes and a bad hard point layout, plus a lack of jump capability (which is used for gliding in brawls as much as it is pop tarting) makes it flat out second fiddle to other 'mechs in it's weight range.

And this is my second suspicion... You prolly don't use all of the weapon groups that is why you tout the flame but not the 1C... That torso energy point throwing you off right?

I regularly use 4 weapon groups, 5th in a pinch.. And the 6th in rare circumstances like my battlemaster...

But hey 2-button builds is where the meta is at right?

Btw, AC+PPC can even be played with 1 button.. I tried using my toe break (foot pedal) for it.. I don't have stress my firing arm with a chance wobble from a trigger press dat meta dawg!

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I think newbies that are interested in designing a good 'mech will see the arguments here. I hope they understand that you are basically steering them towards terrible chassis and builds because you have basically have a wish to see TT style builds in the game, even though that's not how it works.

Btw, I aint TT nostalgic - I haven't even seen a miniature in person... My introduction to the franchise is just computer games (starting from crescent hawks inception)... I haven't even read a single novel... All I know is read from the earlier games or from sarna... which mw was that had an extensive in-game clan articles?

What I do like to do is troll dudes like you.. Isn't it obviously, obvious?

[Victor Morson]

King Arthur IV, on 04 December 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

you cant play all the assault the same, by thinking you can face tank everything. try moving your mech while shooting, it helps in the awesome. legs are awesome! use em!

What you are failing to realize is that if you run into a pilot of approximate skill in a Victor, they will wreck your Awesome.

Actually so will a pilot of approximate skill in a Cataphract or Shadow Hawk too.

Mycrus, on 05 December 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

But hey 2-button builds is where the meta is at right?

Yes, all builds should operate off two primary fire groups. Secondary weapon groups are fine, and setting up alternates to (such as chain fire or "arm only" weapon groups) is fine as well. But ultimately it should revolve around two clicks and if it doesn't, it's a problem.

Grey Black, on 05 December 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

In saying that, the Centurion itself deserves 5 stars IMHO. Simply put, it is the single best medium chassis in the game.

It lost the title to the Shadow Hawk, but it's still a really good 'mech.

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 05 December 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Yes, all builds should operate off two primary fire groups. Secondary weapon groups are fine, and setting up alternates to (such as chain fire or "arm only" weapon groups) is fine as well. But ultimately it should revolve around two clicks and if it doesn't, it's a problem.

Ka-ching... I hit pay dirt again... I'm starting to understand how you think Vic... We are gaining ground...

This prolly why you don't like "frankenmechs" in the first place...

Me I like a lotta buttons... I joystickzzz afterall...

Btw, on your point of meeting a "pilot of equal skill"... This works in duels and not in a team game.. It is too simplistic a view that disregards the other aspects of a battle.. Terrain, temperature, positioning, supporting elements and all that jazz...

[Tekadept]

Victor Morson, on 05 December 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Yes, all builds should operate off two primary fire groups. Secondary weapon groups are fine, and setting up alternates to (such as chain fire or "arm only" weapon groups) is fine as well. But ultimately it should revolve around two clicks and if it doesn't, it's a problem.

Soooo what do you do with the other 3 fingers and 2 thumbs?? that is a waste of potential! what about a scroll wheel?? am i allowed to use that in your universe or is that not competitive??

[Mycrus]

hey Vic, evolve...

Edited by Mycrus, 05 December 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Modo44]

Grey Black, on 05 December 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Okay, I think everyone is missing the point here. Any mech can be good in the hands of the right pilot and in the right circumstances. I don't think anyone will debate that.

I think you misread. OP is debating exactly that, hence all the angry responses.