64 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Karl Streiger, on 04 December 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

... you won't be able to shot better as the AI

This simply isn't true.

Because it's not, the rest of the conclusions based upon it aren't true either; because for them to be true requires this to be true.

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.when your shots are applied based on 2d6 - you wouldn't have a change.

Nonsense.

You can drive your to-hit number (do I hit the overall target parts facing me) down to 2 on 2d6; thus an assured shot, and you can significantly narrow your field of fire - down to a single section if you're using a single weapon - and this happens directly based upon your choices and your skills with the reticule.

[Jarl Dane]

A few things about the Clans.
It annoys me when people act Clans are some new-fangled thing recently tacted on that destroys the sanctity of Battletech. The clans were introduced only a handful of years after CBT began, and its been DECADES since then! The clans have been around for over TWENTY years.

Everyone knows the clans should have won. They only didn't because the The Powers That Be, didn't want them too. Same thing Victor Steiner-Davion's Empire falling apart after the Clans were "handled".

The Writers using their god-like powers of contrivance destroyed anything that would destroy the balance and upset fans of various factions.

[Pacifist]

The most effective method of balancing Clan vs IS without messing with the weapons is relatively simple.
Have a random pubby drop for IS and another for Clans.
As well as 3 lobby types
IS vs IS
IS vs Clan
Clan vs Clan

Within each lobby It displays tonnage and battle value for the opposing sides. When both sides agree to the match it begins.

The real issue is that fight times between 2 IS mechs are about as quick as I want right now. With more heat efficient mechs and more weapons doing more damage matches with Clanners would be over much faster. Something few would enjoy.

[Pht]

DarwinsDisciple, on 06 December 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

The most effective method of balancing Clan vs IS without messing with the weapons is relatively simple.
Have a random pubby drop for IS and another for Clans.
As well as 3 lobby types
IS vs IS
IS vs Clan
Clan vs Clan

Within each lobby It displays tonnage and battle value for the opposing sides. When both sides agree to the match it begins.

The real issue is that fight times between 2 IS mechs are about as quick as I want right now. With more heat efficient mechs and more weapons doing more damage matches with Clanners would be over much faster. Something few would enjoy.

Actually, it should be fairly doable to implement a robust system to balance the clan vs IS thing...

Current (and really, past) MW video games do (and have) "known" who shot who, who was driving what, what configuration each person is/was driving, and where each person is on the map at any given time. The servers have had to know all this stuff just to hand out damage.

This means that full clan honor rules can be implemented. And the best part is, as the current MW game is set up (MWO) you even have the carrot and the stick that you need to enforce it - C-bill takes.

They could even make clan-tech/omnimechs actually rare by limiting how many are available, and making it harder for IS based players to get/maintain/get ammo for/ clan tech. Non-clan faction aligned players would have a harder time getting clan tech.

As for drops; maintan a 2:1 or close IS/Clan mech vs mech ratio. Obviously, allow private drops to alter this rule.

It's just wierd to me why this hasn't been done before now.

It could have easily been done for mechwarrior 2, for goodness sakes.

This would have made the clans what they were in the lore - rare, and SCARY... yet beatable, by intelligent IS players.

We cold have had the clans as they were in the lore, in a fun way... but nobody's done it.

Well, future MW video game developers don't have the excuse that nobody's put these ideas out there publically ...

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Mech The Dane, on 06 December 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Everyone knows the clans should have won. They only didn't because the The Powers That Be, didn't want them too. Same thing Victor Steiner-Davion's Empire falling apart after the Clans were handled.

Actually reading the Blood of Kerensky trilogy the one big thing that stands out is once the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth get their militaries redeployed starting in the summer of 3052 on the FedCom border a Inner Sphere counter offensive would quickly overwhelm the Jade Falcon/Steel Viper occupation zone. The Fed Coms reading those books would have between 100 to 150 Regimental Combat Teams either in place defensively, or ready to drive into the clan occupied worlds. In 3025 tech terms 3 RCT will kill a clan galaxy, once those RCT's gain Star League Era tech, 2 will do it, and if they get to a Wolfs Dragoons/Kell Hounds level of Clan weaponry & heat sinks on IS mechs, a 1 on 1 encounter would go badly for the clans. The Fed Coms numerical superiority and their greater industrial base, and their much shorter logistical supply lines would give them more than enough edge. The only lore based counters the clans would have, is either liberal use of capital warships which the IS does not really have access to (except for some extremely limited exceptions) and sending the entirety of the remaining 11 home world clans into the Inner Sphere to reduce the numerical advantage of the Fed Coms + Draconis Combine militaries. If you use the Clan Warship advantage, might as well call it "SpaceTech - Only Idiots Use Big Stompy Robots To Wage Interstellar War!"

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The Writers using their god-like powers of contrivance destroyed anything that would destroy the balance and upset fans of various factions.

Including saving the Clans as written. The Clan invasion, and their continued edge of technology were entirely based off the writers allowing those story plotline to continue unabated. The Comstar truce was a writers plot device to avoid the major plot hole of no real Fed Com counter offensive against the clans after the attack on Tycross. The Feds as written by the summer of 3052 would have finally had their huge army redeployed and in position to preform a large scale vave attack of their own. Only reason it wasn't was there was a truce in place thanks to Comstar and Hanse Davions death (and Victor Davions idiocy, all of which would be writers contrivance)

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Pht, on 06 December 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Actually, it should be fairly doable to implement a robust system to balance the clan vs IS thing...

Current (and really, past) MW video games do (and have) "known" who shot who, who was driving what, what configuration each person is/was driving, and where each person is on the map at any given time. The servers have had to know all this stuff just to hand out damage.

This means that full clan honor rules can be implemented. And the best part is, as the current MW game is set up (MWO) you even have the carrot and the stick that you need to enforce it - C-bill takes.

Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players sitting on 100+ million C-bill hordes.

Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players determined to troll their starmates.

Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players who measure their epeens by kill to death ratio, and will happily lose some honor to pad their epeens by taking that kill shot.

Won't Work.

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They could even make clan-tech/omnimechs actually rare by limiting how many are available, and making it harder for IS based players to get/maintain/get ammo for/ clan tech. Non-clan faction aligned players would have a harder time getting clan tech.

Won't work as limiting how many clan mechs are available runs counter to PGI stated goal of staying in business. They are gonna sell them mechs for real world currency, and I highly doubt they limit just how many they are willing to sell. Those for sale via in game currency for c-bills they might try and limit, but I guarantee you making it appear that the way to get clan tech is by buying it will create howls of pay 2 win-ism, and in that scenario it would be accurate.

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As for drops; maintan a 2:1 or close IS/Clan mech vs mech ratio. Obviously, allow private drops to alter this rule.

Doubt it works as every time a clan force loses they have the built in excuse PGI needs to loosen the disparity between forces, mean while IS forces who lose will scream bloody murder that PGI needs to instate larger disparities to "balance OP clan tech". If PGi adds clan tech anywhere close to the TT values, the complains will be be multiplied by a factor of 10, as NO ONE will be happy. Every match would be cause for endless complaining, thus sounds like PGI is gonna try sideslipping clan tech. Stronger in some ways, but weakers/limited in others vs IS tech.

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It's just wierd to me why this hasn't been done before now.

It could have easily been done for mechwarrior 2, for goodness sakes.

This would have made the clans what they were in the lore - rare, and SCARY... yet beatable, by intelligent IS players.

We cold have had the clans as they were in the lore, in a fun way... but nobody's done it.

Well, future MW video game developers don't have the excuse that nobody's put these ideas out there publically ...

Because the Clans as written, designed, and built are a highly unbalanced gaming system. Unbalanced gaming system tend to be very small niche markets, as everyone want to be on the high side, and nobody wants to be the goats.

Only way to add the TT version of the clans into MWO is if the game storyline, design, and setup had planned on them being introduced as a AI faction, with eventual player side entry.

A way I've posted in the past on it basically builds the game as first the system we have now + CW allowing the players to fight a short version of the succession wars.

The CW version in my version of MWO would be 3 faction based. 1) FedCom, 2) Combine, and 3) FRR. Mercs would be a sub faction. (Liao and Marik would be npc factions simply because they have no direct combat in the clan invasion, and I would have held them as expansion factions down the road - kinda following the lore with the Marik/Liao offensive against the Fed Com in 3056-57) Each faction would have a reputation system which would be fairly sealed off (meaning you would be highly unlikely to get top standing in more than 1 faction, unless you go merc corps. All the bugs of planetary conquest would be worked out before I'd start the clan invasion as a npc controlled faction. As to graduating player tward clan tech, you could either buy the clan mech pack access (same way other games sell expansions) or in game depending on how the player base played out, you would earn your way to clan tech access via merc corp standing with Wolfs Dragoons (the only Inner Sphere organization with such technologies) and once a player gained max standing with Wolfs Dragoons, then a in game opening would trigger allowing the player to play as a clansman. Twards the end of the invasion period I'd try to get the clans to being a true new set of 4 player controled factions (passing them from npc to player control), I doubt I'd do the comstar battle, but let the war for control wage for a few years.

[SteelWarrior]

I'll never understand the ********* that some of the die hard 3025 players feel towards the clan invasion. IMO its not only one of the best eras in the franchise, but its also a focal point for all the best lore and action to unfold. The Kerensky legacy books are by far some of the best novels in the collection, and its a huge step up from reading about how a Davion/Steiner alliance **** all over tiny little crazy-hopelessly outgunned China AKA LIAO.... The age old argument that the clans wrecked the game is as invalid as the argument that the unseen are vastly supiror to the reseen and the world cannot continue post 1988 FASA. The reason everyone has a hard on for the unseen is because its what they associate with their fond memmories, there is nothing wrong with the reseen, they just arent what we remember playing with 20 years ago. IF the reseen came out as a fresh mech designs, people would love them, i mean the longbow and battlemaster are improvments over the origionals if you ask me, and does it really make sense that the Vertitech series of Battletech mechs have fighter Jet cockpits in their crotches?

These opinions are based from an age when people didnt use the fair playing field BV2 system, and they said "hey lets take 200 tons of mech tech and play a game" and their freind took a star of clanner and crapped on their IS forces. The game needed a change, it needed to grow, you think everyone would be sitting around their table playing 3025 era for the last 25 years of Battletechs exsistence. Im not a huge fan of the Jihad era and WOB in general, but its a nice change of pace every now and then.

But above all else, I just dont understand why it has to affect you. Dont like the clans? Dont play them, why does it bother you that they exsist if your not forced to play them. This franchise is still alive because the clans exsists, in our local gaming group there are 3 or 4 guys who are clanner exclusives, and theres nothing wrong with that. My Sword of Light regiment mopes the floors with their freebirth scum.

[HlynkaCG]

Werewolf486, on 03 December 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Ah, but Randalf that would mean the IS would have Superior numbers not the clans! The last time I checked 5 mechs in a star, 4 in a lance, even if you even it up the superior tech of the clans would overwhelm the IS in a 4v4.

The IS did have superior numbers the populations and industry of a thousand planets vs a few hundred.

[Pht]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 06 December 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players sitting on 100+ million C-bill hordes.

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Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players determined to troll their starmates.

Won't work here. Honor code penalties won't phase players who measure their epeens by kill to death ratio, and will happily lose some honor to pad their epeens by taking that kill shot.

Which is exactly why I pointed out that clan tech should be rare. As in, they should actually limit the amount released, and make it so that clanners are the only ones who have anything like easy access to clan tech.

It would also help if they had the clanners do what clanners do - compete amongst themselves for better tech.

Also, as I understand it, clanners don't buy their machines, nor their tech, nor their parts - the clan governments don't even buy parts (with the major exception of CDS/SF) the majority of the time. If they want tech from another clan, they usually just go have a fight with that clan and steal the tech. AKA, you're limited to what your clan gives you.

As for IS faction players - severely limit the clan tech availability.

Overall, there would need to be some sort of maintenance factor in the game, to model the hardships endured by IS faction players maintaining clan tech (it's not easy for IS players to do upkeep on clantech, esp not in the very beginning of the clan invasion).

---

It would and can work. You may be making the assumption that cbill takes (which, IMO, shouldn't even be a factor for clan faction players - they're simply stuck with what the clan can give them) are the only "stick" in the "stick and carrot" tool box.

Troll your starmates hard enough - lose your 'mech and get stuck in a mech that degraza clan warriors are stuck with. Maybe even get kicked into the faction equivalent of solhama status. There are plenty of sticks in the toolbox for determined jerks.

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Taking a kill shot = dishonorable by clan rules; and the server will know good and well who has done most of the damage to a target and can thus simply invalidate any honor points given when someone steals the kill shot.

As long as a player is "alive" and targeting and firing at a target, the server can determine who's the cherry-picker. In the grey area here, the server simply refuses to hand out any honor points for a kill; and players who routinely take the kill shot "in the grey area" would and should be smacked with dishonor points; speficifically for "playing in the grey."

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Won't work as limiting how many clan mechs are available runs counter to PGI stated goal of staying in business. They are gonna sell them mechs for real world currency, and I highly doubt they limit just how many they are willing to sell. Those for sale via in game currency for c-bills they might try and limit, but I guarantee you making it appear that the way to get clan tech is by buying it will create howls of pay 2 win-ism, and in that scenario it would be accurate.

False conclusion. Were this true, no manufacturer could make money on low volume products.

If the clan tech was actually clan tech and PGI allowed a bidding process they could make back their expenses quite easily, even if they allowed non-paying players to bid cbills at a more expensive rate,

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Doubt it works as every time a clan force loses they have the built in excuse PGI needs to loosen the disparity between forces,

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mean while IS forces who lose will scream bloody murder that PGI needs to instate larger disparities to "balance OP clan tech".

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If PGi adds clan tech anywhere close to the TT values, the complains will be be multiplied by a factor of 10, as NO ONE will be happy.

Built in disparity? What, exactly, are you referring to?

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So? People always whine when they lose. That's nothing new. If an IS Faction loses a fight to a clan faction, that's because, most of the time, the stupid IS faction didn't exploit the built-in holes in the clan "honor" rules.

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A thing is not true simply because you claim it is.

---

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Because the Clans as written, designed, and built are a highly unbalanced gaming system. Unbalanced gaming system tend to be very small niche markets, as everyone want to be on the high side, and nobody wants to be the goats.

---


Only way to add the TT version of the clans into MWO is if the game storyline, design, and setup had planned on them being introduced as a AI faction, with eventual player side entry.

Can you even tell us what you mean by "balance?" Did you even know what you meant by that word, as you wrote your post? The word is such an empty suit that it can be used to mean mutually exclusive things.

What do you mean by "balance?" Can we actually have a meaningful discussion? Or just resort to the usual ships sailing past each other in the night, never making contact?

---

There is no way you can have the knowledge to know that this is the only possible way to do it.

Edited by Pht, 08 December 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Actually, Pht, some trades have occurred between other Clans. IIRC some Clans got access to OmniMech technology with trade or deals rather than Trials of Possession.

Gitfs, trade, isorla contributed to spread designs among the Clans , so it a Clan player being part of a front line Cluster could have assigned a 'Mech not produced by his own Clan.

On the other hand, chassis restriction would be very interesting because it would force Clan players to fights "trials of possession" (Clan variant of planetary conquest) to get 'Mech factories (or designs, since the factories are located far in the Homerworlds).

A player may just switch to a Clan, buy a 'Mech and switch back to his previous Clan. To avoid this, 'Mechs may be assigned ("bought" with Honor points) by your Clan so if you switch you lose it.

The problem with Zellbrigen is that every Inner Sphere opponent is well likely to use disnohorable tactics breaking Zell at the start of the fireworks. This leads to Clan players forced to use Zell against considerable odds (balanced, but still hard to destroy your opponent when 2 other enemies are targeting you!) or break it and gain less honor points.

I would solve it in this way: force zellbrigen only against other Clans (in Trials of Possession, for example) while against Inner Sphere forces you can use Zell but you can break it if the enemy behaves disonhorably, but in this way you get less honor if you win and you may lose honor if you lose the battle.

An Inner Sphere opponent will gain many more c-bills killing Clanners in 1vs1 combat and less with disonhorable tactics.

Still, players sitting on 100 millions c-bills will not be hurt, but i have no better ideas at the moment.

Bidding is more difficult to implement: you could bid away some tons in your group screen or in the waiting screen, but no one likes to join a match and being kicked out instantly. Besides, bidding would be already reflected a bit in using a binary versus a company, 10vs12.

[Pht]

Here's the sarna wiki text on zell, (honor rules) for those who aren't familiar with it:

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Zellbrigen


Contents
[hide]

• 1 Overview
  
• 2 History
  
• 3 Rules
  
• 4 Interpretation
  
• 5 References
  
• 6 Bibliography

[edit] Overview

Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]
[edit] History

The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahl would continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2] This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]
[edit] Rules

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4] Typically the challenge will be made verbally, for example: "I am MechWarrior Franklin of Clan Smoke Jaguar, piloting the lone Warhawk in Beta Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Atlas adorned with the unit designation seven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!"^[5]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition. If the rules of zellbrigen are broken the fight will then degenerate into a melee, a free-for-all battle with no restrictions. Such an outcome though is considered a major breach of honor, usually punished by a loss of rank.^[5][6]
[edit] Interpretation

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]
In the end a warrior's personal honor is subservient to that of his military unit or caste, which in turn is subservient to the honor of their Clan: this can sometimes result in individuals or units using dishonorable tactics "for the greater good."^[5][7] Many Inner Sphere observers were shocked for example when the 2nd Falcon Jaegers abandoned zellbrigen in their attempt to capture Victor Steiner-Davion on Alyina. Though rigid traditionalists the Jade Falcons recognized that capturing the heir of the Federated Commonwealth would bring great honor to their Clan, and so the unit's personal pride took second place.^[7]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenets of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]

Spoiler

[edit] References

• ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17
  
• ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15
  
• ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40
  
• ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275
  
• ↑ ^{5.0 5.1 5.2} MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans, p. 89
  
• ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 169-170
  
• ↑ ^{7.0 7.1} The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 42

[edit] Bibliography

• MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans
  
• Field Manual: Crusader Clans
  
• Field Manual: Warden Clans
  
• The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky
  
• Total Warfare

Cycloner:
... and those IS units that routinely break zell rules will (and should) get tagged as dishonorable; and thus zell wouldn't apply to them - meaning it just comes down to which side thinks better and implements those plans into action better - it's a straight-up fight - clanners having less numbers usually and better damage output, sphereoids having more numbers and less damage output per unit. It just degenerates into a nasty brawl.

Even the most lore-hating players will figure it out really quickly "if clan faction players tag me as bandit/utterly dishonorable they'll pound the {Scrap} out of me."

This is one of the conundrums for IS faction players - how to beat clanners and exploit the holes in zell ... without being tagged as utterly dishonorable and thus winding up being treated as mere bandits and dark caste.


Trades/Gifts/ ... I presumed those happened. I'm curious as to how prevalent they are...

Isorla ... I presume you're referring to the taking of tech that I mentioned earlier (go have a fight and just take it).

Good point about faction switching. Factions for everyone would, in an ideal MW video game, have real meaning to the players; and thus there would be consequences to switching.

[CyclonerM]

Pht, on 08 December 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Good point about faction switching. Factions for everyone would, in an ideal MW video game, have real meaning to the players; and thus there would be consequences to switching.

This is why i stress on penalties for faction switching,especially from IS to Clan and vice versa, the devs already said that if you switch to another Successor State your loyalty points obtained with the others will slowly fade but will not disappear. This means i can join FWL and buy an Orion at the cheapest price in the Sphere, switch to Liao ,play some battles and buy a Catapult ... If i play enough battles with each one i will eventually join the Wolf's Dragoons and maybe get an Omnimech.

Too easy. It is rare enough that a MechWarrior switches faction unless he is a mercenary.. But then one would play with semantics saying he is a "loyalist", quiaff?

Edited by CyclonerM, 08 December 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Bront]

For Table Top, the Clans were rough for folks who didn't like them at first, and they had issues coming up with very good balancing numbers, but eventually they smoothed things over. The fun part of BT is you can simply ignore some of it for an encounter. Like 3025? Well, then stick there. Don't mind Star League era/IS Lostech? That's fine too, play with that. Pick and choose what you want.


On the other hand, MWO is build on an entirely different platform and premise, and if they stick to close to TT values, the Clans are going to roll the IS mechs, and that's with a bunch of IS mechs that are built with Lostech (Unlike mostly old-tech when the IS was getting rolled by the clans). So you need to balance it out, which will be even harder since they're going to be sticking to TT values as far as tonnage and crit space.

The biggest issue is this: Why would your average, non-lore attached player stick with the IS when Clan Tech is superior? For the 10v12 solution, why should I be fodder for the 10 when I could get the good stuff and fight the inferior 12? Unless you're going to allow mixed clan/IS drops, you're already splitting the player base, so there needs to be some advantages in being an IS pilot, and outside of "Well, you've already got your stuff", I'm not sure how they go about that.

[ssm]

Marack Drock, on 08 December 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

I know what went wrong.
Factions declared war at the beginning of time.
Wars for ages.
Mechs are created some thousands of years later.
Star League led by Camerons.
Star League overthrown all factions kill non stop for 250 years.
Clan Wars
Clans defeated (in war)
Minor scuffles and battles.
Jaguar annihilated.
Fed Com civil war.
Jihad and nukes.
Wars of Reaving.
Republic of the sphere formed.
Interstellar com down.
Wars again.

Anyone see a pattern? The name of the series is Battletech! WAR WAR WAR!!! BATTLETECH. BATTLES + TECHNOLOGY. THE GAME IS A WAR GAME. All they did is make something that has a very real possibility of happening (if the human race survives to the 31st century although mechs will be here long before we already are making one and Japan made a real 20ft one that actually walks and everything).
Nutshell version:
War
Peace
War
War for 250 years
CW war
Civil War
Jihad War
Reaving war
Com down
War

Battletech in a nutshell.

It's a game about stompy robots slugging it out, so for it to actually have a point you always need to have war going on, but the way you put this, you forgot to top it off with "There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods"

Edited by ssm, 08 December 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Funny part about Zell is - how should an IS player be able to stay with Zell and win

The only option is - that a medium Mech pilot challenges a enemy assault - and try to dodge any shot while trying to move him somewhere - that a friendly not engaged Assault Mech can move into the back of that Assault - next the medium Mech must refuse to fight an let the Clan Mech make the kill shot....now in this second the IS Assault can invoke a challenge on the Clan warrior and open fire immediately - hopefully with enough force to rip through the armor and virtually destroy that Clan Mech.

The funny part is - that will never work in MWO: you simple don't live long enough - you can not reliably dodge weapon fire - but breaking LOS means you are breaking Zell?

Breaking Cell and the ongoing slug fest is the only advantage IS players would have vs clans.

[ssm]

Bront, on 08 December 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

For Table Top, the Clans were rough for folks who didn't like them at first, and they had issues coming up with very good balancing numbers, but eventually they smoothed things over. The fun part of BT is you can simply ignore some of it for an encounter. Like 3025? Well, then stick there. Don't mind Star League era/IS Lostech? That's fine too, play with that. Pick and choose what you want.


On the other hand, MWO is build on an entirely different platform and premise, and if they stick to close to TT values, the Clans are going to roll the IS mechs, and that's with a bunch of IS mechs that are built with Lostech (Unlike mostly old-tech when the IS was getting rolled by the clans). So you need to balance it out, which will be even harder since they're going to be sticking to TT values as far as tonnage and crit space.

The biggest issue is this: Why would your average, non-lore attached player stick with the IS when Clan Tech is superior? For the 10v12 solution, why should I be fodder for the 10 when I could get the good stuff and fight the inferior 12? Unless you're going to allow mixed clan/IS drops, you're already splitting the player base, so there needs to be some advantages in being an IS pilot, and outside of "Well, you've already got your stuff", I'm not sure how they go about that.

You have two excellent points there:

1. While Clans can be balanced in TT - through enforcing Zellbringen, BV, house rules, scenarios etc, it's not possible to do this in MWO as it is. Zellbringen can only by applied to the reward system, and too many people just won't bother with it in favor of fun of rolling over IS mechs, while proper calculation of BV is impossible due to customisation.


2. It's multiplayer computer game and people generally prefer to be superior individually (and more importantly - they don't want to be inferior "by design") - If Clans should retain their broken TT OPness almost everyone except small group of role-playing masochists ("We should be rolled over mercilessly by Clans game after game because that's how Stackpole wrote it!") would just switch over to the Clans, and then gameplay would be reduced to Clan vs Clan PUGs and small group of syncdropping against each other IS 12-mans.


Way PGI means to do it (nerfing Clantech wherever possibile) is not a choice, it's necessity.

Edited by ssm, 09 December 2013 - 03:43 AM.

[dragnier1]

ssm, on 09 December 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

If Clans should retain their broken TT OPness almost everyone except small group of role-playing masochists would just switch over to the Clans

Bront, on 08 December 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

The biggest issue is this: Why would your average, non-lore attached player stick with the IS when Clan Tech is superior?

Those of you talking about the use of clan honor, you do realize that it (lore) is the ideal, and ideals don't translate well in real life because we're dealing with human beings?

The quotes above are issues that can't be avoided. Limiting access to clan tech will not be adequate in resolving this, and enforcing clan honor wouldn't do enough too. People will find ways and means to circumvent it.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Pht, on 08 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Which is exactly why I pointed out that clan tech should be rare. As in, they should actually limit the amount released, and make it so that clanners are the only ones who have anything like easy access to clan tech.

Who defines who is worthy to acquire the "clan tech" pixels in your personal MWO world?

Because in the place I like to call "reality" PGI makes that call, and given their past decisions I'm erring on the side of who get "clan tech" is who ever has the money (real world currency - ie US dollars, Euros, Yen ect)to buy it. Given how many Battlemasters running around out there a few months before the c-bill release of Battlemasters in game, my reality would seem to show a whole lot of active players are gonna buy it.

My instinct says a near majority of players will end up with MC-Dollar bought clan tech. Therefore it would be neither rare or hard to acquire. All it would take is a little bit of money.

And that's at a highly nerfed version of clan tech, if they introduce a more TT value OP clan tech, I would bet you that better than 80% of the playerbase would buy it before its in game release as a founders/phoenix style value package. Simply because if you add op clan tech, MWo becomes a arms race, and the guys with the fattest wallets win. Those games tend to eat themselves alive unless their playerbase is many factors of magnitude larger than MWO is currently.

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It would also help if they had the clanners do what clanners do - compete amongst themselves for better tech.

An interesting point, but I doubt PGI even with CW has anything more than "get a 10% discount on all light OnmiMech purchases at step 2 clan rep, get 10% off all light and medium Onmimech purchases at step 3 rep ect.

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Also, as I understand it, clanners don't buy their machines, nor their tech, nor their parts - the clan governments don't even buy parts (with the major exception of CDS/SF) the majority of the time. If they want tech from another clan, they usually just go have a fight with that clan and steal the tech. AKA, you're limited to what your clan gives you.

Most members of House militaries are in the same boat, the house lords owns the mech they pilot.

I currently own 29 Mechs, and Archon Steiner hasn't bought a single one for me.

I bet the day Clan tech becomes available i'll be the proud owner of some of it, and it won't be because a Clan Khan decided to give me one.

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As for IS faction players - severely limit the clan tech availability.

Which is actually a point against a salvage or repair system in game. As long as rewards are smelted into c-bills automatically, no clan tech equipment would transfer from clan to IS faction control, if you allow salvage components they will blend/shift.

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Overall, there would need to be some sort of maintenance factor in the game, to model the hardships endured by IS faction players maintaining clan tech (it's not easy for IS players to do upkeep on clantech, esp not in the very beginning of the clan invasion).

Were you around for the Repair and Rearm apocalypse during closed beta?

If you missed it, count your self lucky. There's good reason it lasted all of 3 weeks, and has never been broached by PGI again.

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It would and can work.

No it wouldn't. Not only would it make absolutely no sense from a business prospective (I'm sure that PGI's venture capital people would tear their hair out at the thought of passing up the opportunity to monetize Clan introduction) But it wouldn't even work as a game system

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You may be making the assumption that cbill takes (which, IMO, shouldn't even be a factor for clan faction players - they're simply stuck with what the clan can give them) are the only stick in the stick and carrot tool box.

Oh they can use any system they choose, but it come down to the same thing. Your gonna get to buy clan tech with real world money, so even if it cost me "honor points" I can still take my starmates kill shots if I really want to to pad my epeen kill to death ratio ego stroking, or to simply troll him. PGI is adding a team death match to the game because getting a team to stop and prevent a base capture is considered too much interference with a teams 'kill enemy mech time', and you think these same mechwarriors are gonna follow a ridged rules of engagement system?

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Troll your starmates hard enough - lose your 'mech and get stuck in a mech that degraza clan warriors are stuck with.

And that don't work when the vast majority of clan mechwarriors are BUYING their clan mechs. And that doen't even consider if I'm playing IS and I can screw over the clanner players standing. Man that a whole new world to exploit.

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Maybe even get kicked into the faction equivalent of solhama status. There are plenty of sticks in the toolbox for determined jerks.

And my contention is it still would not work in MWO as its currently designed. If the weapon balancing PGI has done trying to nerf the powergaming metas this past year have proven anything, its players will find novel ways around the very best of intended play options to seize that OP high ground.

Edited by Tyrnea Smurf, 10 December 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

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Taking a kill shot = dishonorable by clan rules; and the server will know good and well who has done most of the damage to a target and can thus simply invalidate any honor points given when someone steals the kill shot.

I'll start this reply with I don't personally care about k/d ratio (I think its a broken stat to easily "gamed") nor do I personal try to troll other players, I'm gonna play devil advocate from the prospective of a player who likes to troll others and gets part of their jollies from screwing other players over:

First point, if I'm getting the kill shot for my epeen to boost my k/d ratio I don't care, since i'll still earn honor on MY original target anyway (double win, earn honor and still get to stroke my epeen), second what if the player who does the most damage is dead before that target is? Still lose honor to finish them off? Also what about when a fight devolves into a mass furball with everyone firing every which way?

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As long as a player is alive and targeting and firing at a target, the server can determine who's the cherry-picker. In the grey area here, the server simply refuses to hand out any honor points for a kill; and players who routinely take the kill shot in the grey area would and should be smacked with dishonor points; speficifically for playing in the grey.

And this is predicated on clanners following a ridged rule where they can only target one enemy, unless another enemy attacks you, which removes the restrictions of engagement, so my solution on the negative honor problem, is provoke a enemy who I've not selected into shooting me. Like something as simple as zig zagging in front of a starmate/binarymate a taking a random hit for the team. On the flip side I can try and screw over a clan player by the same tactic by causing him to hit the wrong mech, nullifying his rewards AND this doesn't even consider the epic ability to not only screw him in his match, but I can screw up his faction standing

Yep in a real time first person shooter Zellbrigen is a real well thought-out reward system.

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False conclusion. Were this true, no manufacturer could make money on low volume products.

If the clan tech was actually clan tech and PGI allowed a bidding process they could make back their expenses quite easily, even if they allowed non-paying players to bid cbills at a more expensive rate

So instead of say a clan package like the phoenix package of 4 onmimechs for $80 with some goodies thown in, you want to e-bay the process highest bidder wins?

How much experience in business or sales in the real world do you have?

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Built in disparity? What, exactly, are you referring to?

I believe that was in reply to your conclusion that PGi could add TT value OP clan tech in game and equalize the playing field by allowing the IS forces to bring a higher number of mechs (or tonnage) to a match. That system is called "balancing by numerical disparity". It is often used in MMO gaming where either the NPC force out-numbers more powerful player characters to create a balanced encounter, or the reverse, a npc boss is out-numbered by less powerful player characters.

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So? People always whine when they lose. That's nothing new.

Why if your PGI create a system that is so short sighted it creates NOTHING but complaints? It would seem counterintuitive.

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If an IS Faction loses a fight to a clan faction, that's because, most of the time, the stupid IS faction didn't exploit the built-in holes in the clan "honor" rules.

And to holes are exploitable to the extent as to being game breaking, which is why in my estimation PGI is NOT going to do it this way.

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A thing is not true simply because you claim it is.

It isn't wrong either until you can prove otherwise. In matters of opinion adults can choose to agree to disagree. Il simply state PGI isn't adding the clans in their TT form because it would be game breaking.

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Can you even tell us what you mean by "balance?" Did you even know what you meant by that word, as you wrote your post? The word is such an empty suit that it can be used to mean mutually exclusive things.

bal·ance [bal-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, bal·anced, bal·anc·ing.


noun

1.

a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.


2.

something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.


3.

mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc.


4.

a state of bodily equilibrium: He lost his balance and fell down the stairs.


5.

an instrument for determining weight, typically by the equilibrium of a bar with a fulcrum at the center, from each end of which is suspended a scale or pan, one holding an object of known weight, and the other holding the object to be weighed.

I think the first definition is the correct one for the purposes of the current discussion, however I don't see anything within the definition of the word "balance" that would allow it to be used as you say "Empty suit" nor "mutually exclusive" of itself.

I do now suspect your no longer covered by the third definition however.

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What do you mean by "balance?" Can we actually have a meaningful discussion? Or just resort to the usual ships sailing past each other in the night, never making contact?

Is English your native language? If not it might be a translation issue.

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There is no way you can have the knowledge to know that this is the only possible way to do it.

Well I do know your way won't work, so at least there's that. And given that PGI is not introducing clan tech at anything close to TT values they apparently also know your way won't work.

EDIT had to break it up into 2 posts as the quote tag system would not take it as a single post

Edited by Tyrnea Smurf, 10 December 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 10 December 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Who defines who is worthy to acquire the "clan tech" pixels in your personal MWO world?

Your rank in your House or Wolf's Dragoons, quiaff?