64 replies to this topic

[SpiralFace]

I'm sorry, but this entire argument seems entirely silly to me.

People are looking at balance like BT was made as a FPS simulator from the start. It wasn't. It was more analogous to a TT strategy game, which have different notions of balance mechanics then FPS's do.

Clan mech balance has ALWAYS revolved around the superior tech in the same way a Space Marine model has higher stats compared to a gretchin model in 40 k. They are balanced in other ways.

ORIGINALLY the Clans where seen as invading force that where SUPPOSED to be so powerful they where preceived as nearly unstoppable because of just how their tech was. But once it was revield that they had limited numbers and a superiority complex that can be easily manipulated, it was fine.

Even in the Early days, Clan vs IS fights where usually 2X tonnage, UNTIL they got rid of the garbage Tonnage balance system (which never worked to begin with) and went with true BV like any other table top wargame.

Because that is what battletech is at its heart. A table top stratagy board game. One that can be adapted for pen and paper RPG play.

If you EVER play the BG with BV scaling, you'll see that the Clans are FAR from overpowered. And in many cases, they are nearly priced out of the matches, which leads to Clan players NEEDING superior play to their opponents to take them out (As it should be.)

Lets look at what is considered "Balanced" in the BG.

a Lance of Awesome AWS-8Q's with average pilots run you 6420 points. (1605 a piece)

the clan Adder Prime (Puma) is considered an "offensively compatible" class. Its two ER PPC's and flamer are only 1 point shy from being the exact same offensive value of them. On a 35 ton frame.

Adders primes come in at 2008 a piece. Nearly 400 points more then the Awesomes FOR A CLAN LIGHT MECH.

This means that you are only going to be able to get 3 Adders for the same BV as 4 Awesomes. And that is NOT taking into consideration the Clan Pilots. Because the "Standard" for clan pilots also is 3/4 rather then 4/5, this ups the BV of the Adders by an additional 30%.

So in the end, a "balanced" Clan force that follows the fluff and composition can only really get 2 adders against a lance of Awesomes. Those two mechs are even the tonnage of a SINGLE Awesome, let alone an entire lance of them.

Once again, this works as intended in the BG BECAUSE its a BG that makes an effort to balance around concepts. Whether it was double tonnage, or Battle Value didn't matter.

The point is that at NO point in time during the clans entire existence where there superior tech was ever considered "too much." Retrospectively, the values of the weapons are inconsistent and riff with probable errors (LRM's with no minimum range.) But that can always be fixed in the BG if they wanted to (They've already made changes to other rules that sees things like pulse / TC combo's nerfed.)

As for this game, its going to be tough. Clan tech was nearly an "entire other race" in the BG. Having it here in this game will always provide a challenge no matter what they do.

Edited by SpiralFace, 10 December 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well at least Clan - Tech was to much - I think BV was developed later - some years after the events of the Clan Invasion.
My first Battle IS vs Clan was balanced by tonnage giving 5-10tons advantage for each Mech that was deployed.

Than there was BV 1 - and Clan Mechs were hauled seriously - afaik BV 1 was more for matching ClanMechs vs Intro Tech IS mechs.

After that thy brough BV 2 - a far better match - but it still had some flaws: like in your example the Pumas will get wasted...because its 4 vs 2 with Force Size Modificator even the supperior numbers of IS Mechs were nerfed.

So its two Pumas vs 3 Awesomes - depends on how the battles goes on - Clan Mechs could charge into the 90m minimum range - or stay at extreme distance - there better speed will allow them to dictate the battle.
While it would be a death sentence for the Awesomes not to move (because a good initiative roll + targeting computer of the Puma - may kill a Awesome very fast (or at least neutralize him)

But its not BV alone - for example 3 Talon (Veterans) vs 2 Puma would be a complete different game.

[SpiralFace]

Force size modifier is garbadge.

As to the balance in my example, its a bit of an extreme example due to the weapons being almost exclusively "head capping" weapons (Which incur an extra BV cost because they can head cap.)

Usually speaking, a BV 2.0 match with 10k worth of forces on each side and NOT playing with force size mod is enough to have a good even match.

I personally don't feel like clan tech was all that ridiculous. The BALANCING behind it was way off base initially, but Clan tech is hardly unfair. Clan forces are forced to play conservatively and not just "b-line" charge the line otherwise they get rolled.

Sure, they have ML's that are pretty much the strength of LL's, but when you are forced to use what you have, you have less mechs, MUCH less armor (because clan armor is the one thing they don't get perks on,) and while your weapons are potent, your IS opponent will more then defiantly have more on the board.

Meaning that your clan force has better individual weapons, but can still be out DPT'ed by an IS opposing force. The goal of the clan mechs is to stay long, rack up tons of mods, and try to use your superior weapons to their advantage. But if the IS force can close on the clans and make it to where their hitting on the same rolls that clan mechs have, then the clans have pretty much lost the fight.

Overall in the BG. IS forces will have more Armor, More Tonnage, and more Overall damage potential on the field. But the clans have weapon efficiency's, are faster, superior pilots and better individually armed then their IS counterparts.

If both sides play to their strengths, the fights are even. With the clans NEEDING to play better because they can be rolled MUCH easier if they play sloppy. Much like Eldar in 40k. They are the "Glass cannon" factions.

[Karl Streiger]

SpiralFace, on 10 December 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

If both sides play to their strengths, the fights are even. With the clans NEEDING to play better because they can be rolled MUCH easier if they play sloppy. Much like Eldar in 40k. They are the "Glass cannon" factions.

Only if you don't move into the death trap in using those Assaults from the TRO3058 - *shudder

But mostly you are right - choose the right Mechs and ClanMechs didn't have a chance... the combination of a HGN-734 and a Hauptmann B - is one of the most effective TT crownbar i ever have used.

Only second to a pair of Night Gyrs As

[SpiralFace]

I don't know what your talking about in regards to the assaults in 3058. They are some of the deadliest Mechs the IS has available to them.

Devistator / Thunder Hawk standing at the top of the pile as some of the few mechs the IS have that can actually stand Toe to Toe with Clan designs at a MUCH cheaper price then their counterparts.

Sure XL engines are unappealing, but BV wise, you get offensively nasty mechs for a decent Price. The devistator coming in at only 300 points more then a Level 1 atlas, and the Thunderhawk as one of the overall meanest builds the IS have at their disposal.

Gauss boats are a different "flavor" of IS.

The thing about clans, is that their tech and sometimes "forced" superior pilots shoe horn them into ALWAYS being the finesse army.

IS can have that too though with the right designs. Specifically the Gauss boats like those that I pointed out. (Doubly so when they are heavy gauss beasts like the Fafnir.)

The thing about balance in the BG is that its based more around what the TOTAL offensive and defensive output of your mechs are. Not what weapons / mechs you bring. So taking efficient heat neutral builds that can wreck face is one of the fastest ways to inflate the cost of your BV. (And part of the main reason why a 35 ton adder as a base is more expensive then an 80 ton awesome.) And as the game gets later in the Timeline, the tech gap between the IS and clans closes.

But thats the point.

The BG is easy to balance around those concepts. Because the overall value of a mech can be evaluated on their actual damage output and then balanced against IS counterparts.

It becomes a challenge when ALL the videogames never took the steps to see that anything was balanced. They just thought it would be fun, which then lead to matches where clan mechs where just clearly "better" then their IS counterparts.

Its never been balanced ton for ton, and it was never design to. Rather, they are two different kinds of ways to play the game, (One raw power, one finesse) that are balanced around mechanics more reminiscent of a TT wargame, not a First person shooter.

[Pht]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 10 December 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Who defines who is worthy to acquire the "clan tech" pixels in your personal MWO world?

Because in the place I like to call "reality" PGI makes that call, and given their past decisions I'm erring on the side of who get "clan tech" is who ever has the money (real world currency - ie US dollars, Euros, Yen ect)to buy it. Given how many Battlemasters running around out there a few months before the c-bill release of Battlemasters in game, my reality would seem to show a whole lot of active players are gonna buy it.

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My instinct says a near majority of players will end up with MC-Dollar bought clan tech. Therefore it would be neither rare or hard to acquire. All it would take is a little bit of money.

And that's at a highly nerfed version of clan tech, if they introduce a more TT value OP clan tech, I would bet you that better than 80% of the playerbase would buy it before its in game release as a founders/phoenix style value package. Simply because if you add op clan tech, MWo becomes a arms race, and the guys with the fattest wallets win. Those games tend to eat themselves alive unless their playerbase is many factors of magnitude larger than MWO is currently.

I wasn't discussing MWO in particular; TBH I shouldn't have even mentioned it. The MWO dev team have gone the way they wanted to; and they aren't going to listen to anything I have to say, given their past comments.

At this point, the discussion is more useful towards "how could you do the clans" given persistance, as most games these days aren't single player offline and are rather persistent in at least some aspects and online.

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I didn't propose any sort of "decides who is worthy" to even get into a clan mech in the first place.

If you join the clan faction, you get a clan starter mech and the tech your particular clan gives you access to.

Movement up the "tech/mech" ladder is determined not by income, but by honor points; which are assessed to you by the honor rules system.

Cash wise, You'd have people gain honor points to access, at least at first, the higher weight classes; you could probably add other HP only "tiers." Once within a tier, allow clan-only players to use RL money to buy other 'mechs within those tiers.


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Access to clan tech for IS faction players would have to be gained by some means other than allowing RL cash buy-in.

TBH, at first blush, I'd say only allow access to clan tech after you've successfully thrashed a certain amount of clanners; and only allow you access to the tech of the particular clanners you've thrashed; to start with as the initial clan invasion happens.

After that, the clan tech would filter into the IS factions at the same (relatively slow) rate as it did in the lore. IS tech catches up pretty quickly in the IS factions, very much reducing the desireablity of clan tech in general, with some obvious exceptions. Meaning you'd have to have a better mechlab using a combination of the hardpoints and the customization rules (NOT the construction rules), along with ammo costs, and repair costs, and availability problems associated with clantech in the lore for the inner sphere powers.


"not rare and hard to acquire" - when I say make it rare, I literally mean release limited numbers and in limited runs. In the lore, clan mechs are actually ... rare.

Actual rarity, not would-be rarity. It wouldn't matter if you had a billion c-bills, if there simply weren't any more left for sale.

It's simply a factor of not using the built-in downsides of clan tech. Everyone has blinkers; they only see the damage output available from clan tech. They never see the other factors.

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An interesting point, but I doubt PGI even with CW has anything more than "get a 10% discount on all light OnmiMech purchases at step 2 clan rep, get 10% off all light and medium Onmimech purchases at step 3 rep ect.

I think the comments above pretty much address this.

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Most members of House militaries are in the same boat, the house lords owns the mech they pilot.

I currently own 29 Mechs, and Archon Steiner hasn't bought a single one for me.

I bet the day Clan tech becomes available i'll be the proud owner of some of it, and it won't be because a Clan Khan decided to give me one.

You are absolutely right to point this out. In fact, even merc unit pliots are mostly in the same boat.

That would mean that even though they ostensively work on a "cash take" basis for the purpose of a persistant online video game, ideally they would have to "qualify up" (although this wouldn't be NEARLY such a restrictive qualifications system as the hide-bound clanners have) and use their cash take (vs honor points for clanners) to buy 'mechs; and obviously there's greater variety in the sphere as far as what can be bought and more latititude to get it.

Merc faction players would have the widest access to tech and 'mechs - but the least cash flow to get it; and for RL purposes, you'd actually have to charget more $$ to a merc player; with the carrot being that you allow them to get 'tech that the house faction players have a hell of a hard time to get.

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Which is actually a point against a salvage or repair system in game. As long as rewards are smelted into c-bills automatically, no clan tech equipment would transfer from clan to IS faction control, if you allow salvage components they will blend/shift.

Which brings up disposession. If you're not willing to disposess players of their mechs/the tech in their mechs, yes, you have somewhat of a problem.

For clan players, this is the least problem; as their clan will put them back into a 'mech, with very few questions.

On a clan to clan basis, I suspect that the dishonor points of having your 'mech shot out from under you varies; but as long as you're not degraza you should be OK.

Almost ditto for house warriors.

Mercs would take the worst hit; not from honor or such, but because the average merc unit may not have a 'mech to spare.

In game terms, you'd want them into a 'mech right away - I personally would say that it's ok to put them into any other 'mechs they have purchased right away.

Worst case scenario, you don't have a backup, there would have to be some way to put you back into a 'mech, right off the bat.

But in all scenarios, if you get shot out of your mech, and the opposing side has control of the field at end of combat and has salvage capability - for instance, has at least two units left on the field with hand actuators, and thus can drag away salvage, and there aren't nearby enemy reinforcements, etc, you could lose your 'mech, and they could gain it. Of course, if they can't salvage it, the game system would do well to give you a chance to get it back off the field.

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Were you around for the Repair and Rearm apocalypse during closed beta?

If you missed it, count your self lucky. There's good reason it lasted all of 3 weeks, and has never been broached by PGI again.

Simply because PGI did it wrong doesn't mean the idea can't be done right.

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No it wouldn't. Not only would it make absolutely no sense from a business prospective (I'm sure that PGI's venture capital people would tear their hair out at the thought of passing up the opportunity to monetize Clan introduction) But it wouldn't even work as a game system

Repeating back and forth "yes! no! yes! no!" isn't productive. I think we both know we disagree with each other on this topic now. Let's move onto the reasons we disagree

I gave reasons as to why It could work.

Speaking of which, I pointed out how they could monetize the clan introduction. It can be done correctly, without rendering the clan tech into a wax nose; at least as long as the bean-counters are more mature than two year olds and can understand that grabbing all the candy off the shelf like ham-fisted pigs as quickly as possible results in lower long-term profit margins. You make less money by going for the quick big grab with an IP like MechWarrior.

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Oh they can use any system they choose, but it come down to the same thing. Your gonna get to buy clan tech with real world money, so even if it cost me "honor points" I can still take my starmates kill shots if I really want to to pad my epeen kill to death ratio ego stroking, or to simply troll him. PGI is adding a team death match to the game because getting a team to stop and prevent a base capture is considered too much interference with a teams 'kill enemy mech time', and you think these same mechwarriors are gonna follow a ridged rules of engagement system?

This has to simply be ignorance talking.

If you're a team killer who, even after having his access to all but one "degraza" mech enforced against him, keeps on TKing ... you simply get kicked from the game. Cut off.

There is no magical "invincible jerk."

If you really think there is, I'll happily use your own reasoning to destroy any idea you may have, in a way that you yourself will reject.

If the jerk is impossible to beat; than he crushes ANYONE's setup.

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... And that doen't even consider if I'm playing IS and I can screw over the clanner players standing. Man that a whole new world to exploit.

How about some content to actually discuss?

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And my contention is it still would not work in MWO as its currently designed.

Addressed in the first line of my reply.

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If the weapon balancing PGI has done trying to nerf the powergaming metas this past year have proven anything, its players will find novel ways around the very best of intended play options to seize that OP high ground.

Exactly. So setup the system as it's been setup since 1984 and the initial clan invasion and you will know beforehand where the holes are and be able to work with them.

The alternative is to scratch-build a system with utterly unknown holes, and continue to slap patches on the holes you see, all the while opening new holes you don't see, and can't predict for.

[Pht]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 10 December 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

I'll start this reply with I don't personally care about k/d ratio (I think its a broken stat to easily "gamed") nor do I personal try to troll other players, I'm gonna play devil advocate from the prospective of a player who likes to troll others and gets part of their jollies from screwing other players over:

First point, if I'm getting the kill shot for my epeen to boost my k/d ratio I don't care, since i'll still earn honor on MY original target anyway (double win, earn honor and still get to stroke my epeen), second what if the player who does the most damage is dead before that target is? Still lose honor to finish them off? Also what about when a fight devolves into a mass furball with everyone firing every which way?

It doesn't mattter what you think about K/D ratio. In fact, I wasn't even discussing K/D ratio. Cherry-picking is not K/D ratio itself - it is an underhanded tactic used to exploit K/D. anti-cherry picking is built into the clanner's stupid honor rules and is one of their downsides.

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... and the appropriate stick is, at some point, to kick you down out of your current tier of tech/mech, and now allow you access to it until you overcome the "you're a jerk" points you've gotten by cherry picking.

"still earn honor" - no, you won't. Nothing I posted says you would or means that you would.

For blatant cherry picking you would NOT get any HPs, you'd take dishonor points. If you try to get around this by playing in the grey, you STILL don't get HPs, it just takes you a little longer to get a dishonor penalty.

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And this is predicated on clanners following a ridged rule where they can only target one enemy, unless another enemy attacks you, which removes the restrictions of engagement, so my solution on the negative honor problem, is provoke a enemy who I've not selected into shooting me. Like something as simple as zig zagging in front of a starmate/binarymate a taking a random hit for the team. On the flip side I can try and screw over a clan player by the same tactic by causing him to hit the wrong mech, nullifying his rewards AND this doesn't even consider the epic ability to not only screw him in his match, but I can screw up his faction standing

Yep in a real time first person shooter Zellbrigen is a real well thought-out reward system.

Nowhere have I posted that zell is a "well thought out reward system." You'll see that I have repeatedly and quite clearly posted that it's hide-bound and stupid. It wouldn't be a downside if it WAS well thought out. In game terms, it's intended to be a hard thing to live with, in order to balance the tech advantages... stupid clanners.

"Provoke an enemy" ... this requires you to team up on another target that hasn't challenged you with another clan faction player. AT which point the game will KNOW you have broken the honor rules, giving you a large hit to your HPs.

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So instead of say a clan package like the phoenix package of 4 onmimechs for $80 with some goodies thown in, you want to e-bay the process highest bidder wins?

How much experience in business or sales in the real world do you have?

Yes, because my post OBVIOUSLY could only have necessarily meant an ebay style auction.

Ask before you thrash blindly; you'll hit your target more often.

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I believe that was in reply to your conclusion that PGi could add TT value OP clan tech in game and equalize the playing field by allowing the IS forces to bring a higher number of mechs (or tonnage) to a match. That system is called "balancing by numerical disparity". It is often used in MMO gaming where either the NPC force out-numbers more powerful player characters to create a balanced encounter, or the reverse, a npc boss is out-numbered by less powerful player characters.

... slick. Presume the point in contention - that the clan tech is OP - as if the issue is settled.

You still haven't clarified as to what the REASON is that the numerical disparity would "have" to be cut down on when clanners lose.

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Why if your PGI create a system that is so short sighted it creates NOTHING but complaints? It would seem counterintuitive.

Again, simply assuming your point.

It's obvious we disagree. What are the particualr reasons why you sain that it would create nothing but complaints?

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And to holes are exploitable to the extent as to being game breaking, which is why in my estimation PGI is NOT going to do it this way.

The "holes" being? Exploitable how?

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bal·ance [bal-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, bal·anced, bal·anc·ing.

noun

1.

a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.

...

I think the first definition is the correct one for the purposes of the current discussion, however I don't see anything within the definition of the word "balance" that would allow it to be used as you say "Empty suit" nor "mutually exclusive" of itself.

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I do now suspect your no longer covered by the third definition however.

So, you've never seen people use the word "balance" to mean different things?

Even in the definition list you quoted, it has different meanings.

Moving on; ok, #1 - Equality of ... what? Damage output? If damage output, what kind of damage output?

Or equality of something else?

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You have no valid reason from anything in my posts to apply this description to me.

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Well I do know your way won't work, so at least there's that.

The reasons you've given so far for your positions have been short-sighted. I've pointed out how in my replies to your reasons for your position.

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EDIT had to break it up into 2 posts as the quote tag system would not take it as a single post

These forums limit you to 10 quote blocks. I've asked repeatedly for that limit to be upped, as you've just shown one of the reasons that it's pointless and counter-productive.

[Pht]

SpiralFace, on 10 December 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

People are looking at balance like BT was made as a FPS simulator from the start.

I am not presuming this.

I'm curious as to what you have in mind when you use the phrase "FPS simulator" ...?

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It wasn't. It was more analogous to a TT strategy game, which have different notions of balance mechanics then FPS's do.

The differences being?

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Clan mech balance has ALWAYS revolved around the superior tech in the same way a Space Marine model has higher stats compared to a gretchin model in 40 k. They are balanced in other ways.

It is exactly these "other ways" that I'm pointing out should be used by any development team (and again, I don't think PGI will do this, so MWO is secondary here) that wants to make a persistant online MW video game.

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If you EVER play the BG with BV scaling, you'll see that the Clans are FAR from overpowered. And in many cases, they are nearly priced out of the matches, which leads to Clan players NEEDING superior play to their opponents to take them out (As it should be.)

I was just messing about using exactly this sort of thing, doing custom mech builds in SSW using only tournel legal era-specific tech (3053). Two 55 tonners, 6/9, 100% armor, 6 medium lasers, heat-neutral managed to bring down a clan daishi-A in half of the four games I tried it with them in; even though I gave the clanner all the advantages - flat terrain, purely open, starting at range over 30 hexes away.

It's obviously harder to do with stock builds, but there are some really good low-bv zombies out there - that are also low cost, low tech, and lower tonnage.

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Once again, this works as intended in the BG BECAUSE its a BG that makes an effort to balance around concepts. Whether it was double tonnage, or Battle Value didn't matter.

The point is that at NO point in time during the clans entire existence where there superior tech was ever considered "too much." Retrospectively, the values of the weapons are inconsistent and riff with probable errors (LRM's with no minimum range.) But that can always be fixed in the BG if they wanted to (They've already made changes to other rules that sees things like pulse / TC combo's nerfed.)

The balancing factors in the BG are usable in the MW format - that is, if a DEV team comes along that is NOT stuck in the "we have to use the usual FPS style game damage resolution formats," along with "we have to simulate the 'mech's weapons handling capabilities in a game about ... piloting mechs in combat."

[Vanguard319]

Will9761, on 05 December 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I can live with Stars vs Lances, but one problem with the clan tech is that some of their weapons are too powerful. Like the ER PPCs for example, 15 damage is pretty insane. Imagine fighting a Warhawk(Masakari) in MWO, with 4x Clan ER PPCs, when it group fires on you, it would possess the same damage as a 6xPPC Stalker; and we all know how annoying they were. Another fact is that some of the weapons share the same heat, despite their powerful damage. Again explaining the firepower of the Warhawk(Masakari), when it fires there is little heat penatly when it fires its six ER PPCs and that give the Clans an unfair advantage. My suggestion would be to lessen the damage slightly and increase the heat.

Try building a 4 ER PPC Stalker in the current game. You can't fire them all at once without shutting down immediately, Alpha them too much and you will actually destroy your own engine, even with the shutdown, and of course, you will remain shutdown for quite awhile. The clan version of the same weapon has the same heat, you would never be able to fire them continuously without becoming a a big fat stationary target for anyone who wants to rip you apart. Even if you could fire 6 at once, you would have even worse heat issues, probably to the point where firing an alpha would instantly destroy your mech.

On that note, they should just do what they did with Mechwarrior 3: building a mech with too many high heat weapons and not enough heat sinks causes the reactor to explode when you try to fire them all.

Edited by Vanguard319, 12 December 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Panthros]

What is interesting is the idea that people have that there should be some type of balanced battle between IS and Clan.

Never in warfare was a battle fought balanced. One army might be larger but the smaller army might chose the location of the battle. There never was and never will be balance so get it out of your head. Once you do and accept clan superiority, you can map a battle where it is interesting and challenging for everyone. The bidding process and zellbrigen are enough to make things more challenging for clans IMHO. Though the IS might have larger forces, the clans generally chose the location which is why they won so often (better equipment always helps). They lost Tukayyid to a Comstar force that was more equal, Comstar chose the location and of course we all know, Comstar cheated on multiple occasions.

We will see this when community warfare launches. I envision two clan stars of 1/3 to 1/2 the weight of a company of IS mechs. I do not care that you have an Atlas or Highlander, I will shoot you down in my Adder because I chose Tourmaline desert

[dal10]

how does one cheat in war? isn't all fair?

[Panthros]

Cheat or fair does not matter in war, only the winner. The winner gets to write the history The downfall of the clans was treating the IS as equals. Zellbrigen should only have applied to their peers, other clan warriors. This is what makes the clans awesome, they are flawed in so many ways though they have superior equipment.

[dal10]

and i will happily de-ear it.

[Jester McCloud]

Diablobo, on 03 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

While you have many good points, the superior numbers argument does not work. A star of Clan mechs would be expected to take down at least two lances, if not a company.

Yer right. Although I know nothing of TT, I have read, I believe the majority of the novels, which go into backstory quite deeply. A superior mind/equipment/etc will always win out, which is why the Clans have controlled breeding. The entirety of the Clans would have been wiped out if the entirely of the IS fought directly against them - instead of the proxy battle to win the war. The fact is that infighting was going on in the IS and therefore folks had to fight a battle on many fronts.

[PaintedWolf]

The Crusaders basically led the Clans into a trap, and then split the Clans on a political issue. They even betrayed Clan Smoke Jaguar for political reasons. I do not know what the Wardens would do, but I am not sure Ulric Kerensky would let Smoke Jaguar be Annihilated.

The Truce of Tukkayyid was a big blunder largely because of Crusader overconfidence. The Crusaders never even considered a slow-down in the invasion, against a largely unknown foe. They were so used to using politics to beat the Wardens that they never considered that the Inner Sphere politicians would not play their game.

In any case, they underbid on Luthien and they underbid on Tukkayyid. They did not consider how small scale battles are more tactically intense and while large scale battles are more strategic, so they lost Tukkayyid as large numbers overwhelmed their tactically intense strategems.

Ulric urged them, repeatedly, to bring in more troops and that the battle could be costly- the more he warned them, the more confident the Crusaders seemed to become and he actually used that against them, reserving the "dishonorable" last spot for his very large bid of wolves.

Then the Falcons, in another crazed political ploy, accused Ulric of ******** because he could one day be pitting a technologically equal Inner Sphere against inexperienced Clan troops. The irony is so convoluted- the Crusade itself is what introduced Clan Technology to the Inner Sphere, including Warships. In any case, real ******** eventually takes place amongst the Clans, from the Crusaders very corners in "The Wars of Reaving".

So they accuse the Khan of Clan Wolf, a Kerensky, of ******** against the Clans- the ultimate treason and expect him to step aside. They are aghast, caught completely unprepared when he bids for his defense- bidding all of Clan Wolf. The Falcons even accept. They are so over-confident they even think they can push Kerensky's chosen Clan aside easily.

So basically, the Crusaders had no contigency plans for a stalled invasion of the Inner Sphere at all. Mentally they seemed to have a collective break down in fact, culminating in the bizarre Wars of Reaving in the Home Worlds.

So Crusader Clan Hubris, largely from the Falcons.

[PaintedWolf]

Note the Crusaders came to power, tellingly enough, during the Political Century. They basically took power by manipulating the Clan honor code for selfish ends.

[PaintedWolf]

In any case I am actually pleased with how events turned out and how Clans turned out. The Mystic Clan is thankfully gone. The Smoke Jaguars paid for their war crimes against the people they came claiming their need to protect.

The Clans have diversified, and begun new lines of research stagnant since the Political Century with Elstars. Elstars are super-specialized genetically engineered people- think alien in appearance and unable to function in day to day activity. Like Soldier Army ants- not even able to feed themselves.

The Wolf Empire, Arcship Societies, Golden Ordos are amazing. The Raven Alliance is interesting. The Home Clans are likewise experiencing a renaissance.

Perhaps the greatest outcome was the Second Star League and Republic of Sphere. In a sense then, the Clans are perhaps remaking a new incarnation of a peaceful era, simply however in steps instead of by outright conquest.

However one could argue the Civil War and Jihad was likewise a result of the Invasion. I am not even sure Kerensky's decision for exodus was wise. I think he was emotionally unstable after the Periphery Campaign, the daily struggle with the Great Houses, and his failure to protect the Cameron family. Add to that the stress of his battle with Amaris, and we can see a person exhausted emotionally as well as physically.

It'd have been best if he simply joined a Great House, which the Clans should have done if they were serious about a swifter victory.

The diversity now is much more interesting however. The Tank Warrior project was particularly awesome, and I really like those Tank-Mech hybrids. The Elstars are of particular interest. I love genetically engineered super-specialized pilots, we may even get negative values perhaps. Imagine if an Elstar has -2 to rolls. They can auto-hit, and if that is combined with a +3 Initiative Battle Computer (I sacrifice a LOT to get this usually, even letting opponents get 2 times my BV or more and equal quirks. ) you can control the entire battle. Combine this with specialized weapons training, and that is three force multipliers. Add Clan Tech vs Inner Sphere and that is four force multipliers. Maybe Elstars could get an initiative bonus- no telling how extreme genetic engineering can go.

Since BV does not equal economy though I do not see the point. A real commander who went by BV would be butchering his own troops for a point system.

[dal10]

you lost me there.

[Mr Blonde]

Werewolf486, on 03 December 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Ah, but Randalf that would mean the IS would have Superior numbers not the clans! The last time I checked 5 mechs in a star, 4 in a lance, even if you even it up the superior tech of the clans would overwhelm the IS in a 4v4.

I think he was talking about overall numbers in the canon. In that case, any one Great House would have more warriors than all the clans combined. Add in the other 4, plus ComGuards, mercs, and Periphery powers and the Clans never stood a chance. Think Japan invading China in the 1930's. They looked impressive going in with superior training and weaponry, but (even before we got involved) they couldn't conceivably conquer and garrison even 1/4 of China, much less all of it. All the Clans combined didn't have enough warriors to even approach defeating the IS forces.

The game-wrecker will be the mix of Clan and IS mechs in the same old deathmatches. IS will be horribly outclassed, and those willing to spend large $ will be the champs. But hey, that's just like real life!

[Asmosis]

even with the proposed changes clan tech looks like it will be significantly stronger than IS equivalent's, and yet people are still upset at those nerfs.

This is one topic where PGI really should just ignore the fanbase and do what they think it takes to balance them as most suggestions seen focus on keeping the wildly imbalanced values, and then trying to push some other wildly imbalanced suggestion through in the vain hope it'll work out in the end. it wont.