44 replies to this topic

[Jazzbandit1313]

It seems as though ever since the release of the shadowhawk and the Champion blackjack (BAM), the new medium meta has been to slap an AC/20 and medium lasers on your mech and cram the biggest standard engine you can into it. Now while these setups are very effective and are pretty fun to play, I think everyone is loosing sight of what the medium mech should be doing on the battlefield. We had the same problem with jagers and kitties a while back when everyone was using splat cats and AC/40 jagers. High instantaneous damage, and easy cores. Everyone complained, "leave the most damage to be dealt by the assaults" and urged the heavy pilots to either snipe, or brawl using other weapons. I believe this is what's happening here, except with mediums. While i know i can't tell everyone using an AC/20 setup on a medium to stop, i can at least urge you to go back to the original weapons that are great for medium mechs, I.E. LB 10x AC, AC/10 AC/5, AC/2. I've seen some devastating builds utilize twin ac5's or ac2's. I think i have the most fun in the game ATM using my CN9-D with an LB 10x AC, 2 Mlas, and 2 streaks with an xl300 tweaked. 106.9 KPH, great for hunting lights and annoying assaults, while still being able to brawl with the heavies. The problem is that we have too many mechs in the medium chasis that are able to fit an AC/20. Blackjack, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Yen-lo, Shadowhawk, hell even ******* cicada can mount one if you're crazy. There either needs to be a change that makes the other balistics a more attractive option, or nerf AC/20's on mediums....like maybe recoil or something...i don't know Can we please discuss this?

P.S. If anyone wants the links to my favorite CN9-D builds let me know because its my specialty.

[Hexenhammer]

So we're going to penalize medium mechs that come with the AC/20 by default? Or are we going to add another complex layer of rules on which mechs can and can not have AC/20s?

Why limit arbitrary rules to mediums? I say assaults need to be limited. Scoring 1005 pts of damage is just too much and we need a way to limit the damage assaults do to give the other team a chance to compete.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 03 December 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Hexenhammer, on 03 December 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

So we're going to penalize medium mechs that come with the AC/20 by default? Centenarians and Hunchbacks? Or are we going to add another complex layer of rules on which mech can and can not have AC/20s?

Why limit it to mediums? I say assaults need to be limited. Scoring 1005 pts of damage is just to much and we need a way to limit that damage to give the other team a chance to compete.

What i'm saying is make the other weapons more usable somehow. Uac/5's got a buff so now you see HGN's carrying 2 of em or 2 AC5's. You see heavies running around with speedy dual AC/10 builds, and lots of AC/5 or UAC/5 jager builds. Maybe even introduce that awesome light ballistic everyone wants that's between an AC/2 and a machine gun, something to get medium pilots away from only wanting to use AC/20's

[Maerawn]

A/C 20 are standard equipment for hunchbacks... ie why they have the HUGE hunch....

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hunchback

Quote

The primary weapon on the Hunchback is a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which can strip one and a quarter tons of armor off an enemy 'Mech in a single blow. This is paired with two Ichiba 2000 Medium Lasers and a Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Laser All of the weapons carried by the Hunchback make it a devastating opponent at close range.^[5]

Edited by Maerawn, 03 December 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Right now the meta is Long-range Energy + Long-Range/High-Damage ballistic. Everyone and their grandma seems to be trying to fit that pin-point damage combination into as many platforms as possible. As long as the current meta remains along the lines of the poptart gameplay, this will continue to propegate across every mech chassis.

At some point, I fully expect to see an AC2/Pulse-Laser combination strolling around on jump-jet light mechs playing peek-a-boo.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Ok sure maybe it's standard for a hunchy sure, but now everyone thinks that because one build is successful with the AC/20, then that's what we should use on our mechs because maybe its the medium class "standard"

[Maerawn]

Rhaythe, on 03 December 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Right now the meta is Long-range Energy + Long-Range/High-Damage ballistic. Everyone and their grandma seems to be trying to fit that pin-point damage combination into as many platforms as possible. As long as the current meta remains along the lines of the poptart gameplay, this will continue to propegate across every mech chassis.

At some point, I fully expect to see an AC2/Pulse-Laser combination strolling around on jump-jet light mechs playing peek-a-boo.

you just gave me an idea for the JJ raven variant....

[StalaggtIKE]

A somewhat decent pilot in a snipe build tears medium AC20 builds up. I don't see a problem here.

[DONTOR]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 December 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

It seems as though ever since the release of the shadowhawk and the Champion blackjack (BAM), the new medium meta has been to slap an AC/20 and medium lasers on your mech and cram the biggest standard engine you can into it. Now while these setups are very effective and are pretty fun to play, I think everyone is loosing sight of what the medium mech should be doing on the battlefield. We had the same problem with jagers and kitties a while back when everyone was using splat cats and AC/40 jagers. High instantaneous damage, and easy cores. Everyone complained, "leave the most damage to be dealt by the assaults" and urged the heavy pilots to either snipe, or brawl using other weapons. I believe this is what's happening here, except with mediums. While i know i can't tell everyone using an AC/20 setup on a medium to stop, i can at least urge you to go back to the original weapons that are great for medium mechs, I.E. LB 10x AC, AC/10 AC/5, AC/2. I've seen some devastating builds utilize twin ac5's or ac2's. I think i have the most fun in the game ATM using my CN9-D with an LB 10x AC, 2 Mlas, and 2 streaks with an xl300 tweaked. 106.9 KPH, great for hunting lights and annoying assaults, while still being able to brawl with the heavies. The problem is that we have too many mechs in the medium chasis that are able to fit an AC/20. Blackjack, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Yen-lo, Shadowhawk, hell even ******* cicada can mount one if you're crazy. There either needs to be a change that makes the other balistics a more attractive option, or nerf AC/20's on mediums....like maybe recoil or something...i don't know Can we please discuss this?

P.S. If anyone wants the links to my favorite CN9-D builds let me know because its my specialty.

Hate to burst your bubble but mediums with AC20 and MLs, isnt new at all. Its how YLW and Hunchies have been doing it since closed beta. I dont do it my self becuase its to slow, I prefer my Cent with an XL390.

[Rhaythe]

Maerawn, on 03 December 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

you just gave me an idea for the JJ raven variant....

I don't mind the weaponset in general. But when I see a light mech camping behind a hill and pretending it's a Highlander with dual PPCs and an AC20, I might start throwing things.

[Voivode]

I have eight mediums, only two use an AC20, one with twin ML, one with twin MPL. Lots of good builds out there with mediums.

[Jazzbandit1313]

I know that the AC/20 mediums aren't a huge problem, I just hate to see them being used so much among new players and regulars when there are so many different and diverse loadouts that are just as good if not better. I am basically saying that i don't like the ratio of people that are using AC/20 builds to the number of people that prefer to diversify their weapon choice a little bit and try new things. Like i said earlier, I can't change people's opinions or their mind about it, but i can at least try to promote the use of other weapons for the sole purpose of creating a more equally balanced mindset in terms of weapon choice. Kind of like when Gauss+2PPC was the king. Everyone used it at least some part of the time, and many people used only that, and that makes the game so linear for me. Seing the same type of enemy with the same type of weapon, causing me to use the same type of counter strategies and movements to avoid and combat my enemies.

[Wolfways]

It's the players and AC's that are the problem.
Many players just want one big gun, or a combination of weapons that can be fired together, and the AC20 fits that because it has high Damage and high dps. It should not have both.
Small maps with loads of cover also help make the AC20 easy to use.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odd.


I'm a noted Medium pilot, and the only mediums I run with AC20s are my HBK-4G and YLW.... both of which are meant to be done that way.

None of my Shads or other Mediums do, yet I have 3 to 1 or higher in pretty much any Medium not called Cicada or Kintaro.

[Finn McShae]

But.. .but... my ON1-K was just BEGGING for me to slap 2 more MLAS and an AC/20 on it!

Oh, you were talking Mediums. Yeah, I don't like that, I prefer smaller longer ranged guns on my mediums, AC/5 usually, or UAC/5.

Actually, I like AC/5's on everything since the Jagers came out, especially after the FB came out and I could run my quasi-rifleman finally.

[Corbon Zackery]

The rule of thumb with auto-cannons is. pretty simple.

If Cannon A + Cannon B = the weight of Cannon C

Use Cannon C

So 2 AC 2 = 12tons

Use 1 of these:
AC 10 12tons
AC 5 8 tons
LBX 10 11 tons
Ultra AC 5

So let do again for redundancy:

2 AC 5 = 16 tons

Use 1 of these instead
AC 10 12 tons
AC 20 14 tons
LBX 10 11 tons
Gauss 15 tons
Ultra AC 5 9 tons

In the case of auto-cannons 1 is always better than 2.

[Bishop Steiner]

Corbon Zackery, on 03 December 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

The rule of thumb with auto-cannons is. pretty simple.

If Cannon A + Cannon B = the weight of Cannon C

Use Cannon C

So 2 AC 2 = 12tons

Use 1 of these:
AC 10 12tons
AC 5 8 tons
LBX 10 11 tons
Ultra AC 5

So let do again for redundancy:

2 AC 5 = 16 tons

Use 1 of these instead
AC 10 12 tons
AC 20 14 tons
LBX 10 11 tons
Gauss 15 tons
Ultra AC 5 9 tons

In the case of auto-cannons 1 is always better than 2.

................?

No, not really. Depends on the role. I have plenty of Mechs I would rather roll 2 ac10 on than one ac20 or Gauss (much higher DPS) and others I prefer to mount dual ac5 or UACs to ac10s or bigger. Long before the current meta I favored ACs, and your thesis is sort of nonsense.

[IceCase88]

Nerf red, buff blue. Tok much meta QQing.

[zztophat]

I actually prefer the AC10 in my hawk, because the weapon is lighter and the ammo is more tonnage efficient, I use the saved tonnage to mount a large laser instead of medium.

I find the greater engagement range leads to greater flexibility, more survivability and all in all is just more effective when operating in a firing line with various allied mechs than the shorter ranged weapon combo.

[Amsro]

I see pretty much every random load-out in matches.

Meta is OP and needs to be nerfed.

Most mediums can't even mount an AC20.