31 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

the more I believe we should have some kind of movement sway. Considering all the FPS I played in the past, I have a hard time understanding how people want and tolerate having completely pinpoint accuracy even when moving full speed.

IMO, there needs to be an aiming penalty for firing while moving, translated mostly into loss of accuracy at long range, without the shot going totally overboard. At short range, it means losing pinpoint convergence, but most if not all shots will connect. One might think it would nerf light mechs too much, but when you think about it, being at close range and firing smaller caliber weapons isn't as penalizing as firing big cannons (think "mobility" aspect in other FPS, higher mobility means you can move faster and be more accurate while moving).

So, I know this isn't something we'll see this decade, but I think this would help balance the pinpoint meta.

[Troutmonkey]

Assault / Heavies are relatively slow, and thus will be hurt the least. This will hurt mediums / lights more than anything else, and will just move more people into slower mechs.

I'm against any changes that nerf lights and/or mediums, because they have a hard enough time as it is.

[Sybreed]

Troutmonkey, on 03 December 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Assault / Heavies are relatively slow, and thus will be hurt the least. This will hurt mediums / lights more than anything else, and will just move more people into slower mechs.

I'm against any changes that nerf lights and/or mediums, because they have a hard enough time as it is.

Sorry, but you have just suffered from short sightedness (is that a word) that makes you eligible to be part of PGI's design team

Movement sway/penalty can be based on speed % instead of absolute speed. Problem solved.

[Masaio]

Hate to bring real life into it…. But all modern tanks have turret and weapons systems stabilization. Even cameras on phones have stabilization. They may have it in the future….

[Troutmonkey]

Sybreed, on 03 December 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Movement sway/penalty can be based on speed % instead of absolute speed. Problem solved.

Still affects lights / mediums more than heavies. As a light / medium you will often be cruising around at top speed dodge enemy fire and move into position. Heavies / Assaults tend to do a lot of stop and pop, relying on armour to soak the damage while hill hump or jump-snipe to victory.

[Phantomime]

Sybreed, on 03 December 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

the more I believe we should have some kind of movement sway. Considering all the FPS I played in the past, I have a hard time understanding how people want and tolerate having completely pinpoint accuracy even when moving full speed.

IMO, there needs to be an aiming penalty for firing while moving, translated mostly into loss of accuracy at long range, without the shot going totally overboard. At short range, it means losing pinpoint convergence, but most if not all shots will connect. One might think it would nerf light mechs too much, but when you think about it, being at close range and firing smaller caliber weapons isn't as penalizing as firing big cannons (think "mobility" aspect in other FPS, higher mobility means you can move faster and be more accurate while moving).

So, I know this isn't something we'll see this decade, but I think this would help balance the pinpoint meta.

adding in deviation would:

-give another thing for skills to tweek.

-would cut down on CT sniping or force people to be stationary for a longer period.

-would reduce the power of the 'alpha heavy' weapons and add more room for rapid fire weapons to shine.


Problems:

-Snipers generally dont move anyway once setup, and there are no AoE weapons to disrupt them once they are setup because if you look at them (w/o the current wild and wierd batch of nurfs) you get alpha'd and die instantly (assuming they get their deviation down to almost 0, like you can in most shooters.)

-due to the current state of ECM, missiles just arent the counter to stationary mechs they need to be - maybe they could turn off the 'Incomming Missile' warning so that missiles become like guns in the sense that, you might only know you've been shot at when they start raining down?

-close range weapons like the AC20 would be grusumly effected as it has an ammo capacity of, well, not much - so not so bad for light mechs, but mediums would be hit hard - needing both speed and accuracy to be of use.

Fixes:

-speed vs accuracy:

--its all about how you curve it.
Heavys-Assaults could have a lesser max deviation but take longer to reduce deviation over time (by slowing down/stopping)

Lights-Mediums could have a faster reduction of deviation over time, but with lesser max deviation. (allowing them to fire more accurately at max speed, and have the deviation increase/reduction scale maybe with its accelleration...?)

examples:
so lights would say have a max deviation of 5 and a min of 2 (10 point scale; 0 is most accurate)
reduction of deviataion based on 2-3x the mech's accelleration (so hella fast for lights).

mediums would have a max deviation of 6 and a min of 2

heavies would have a max of 7 and a min of 1.

assaults would have a max of 8 and a min of 0. (thus yes, they can get deadly accurate, but it takes them a while to get there after they full stop.)

.... a start?

Edited by Phantomime, 03 December 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Sway doesn't exist now. It sure as hell won't in the future.

Edited by lockwoodx, 03 December 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[Sybreed]

lockwoodx, on 03 December 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Sway doesn't exist now. It sure as hell won't in the future.

and battlemechs will be the main warfare apparatus we'll see in the future

[akpavker]

Sybreed, on 03 December 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

there needs to be an aiming penalty for firing while moving, translated mostly into loss of accuracy at long range, without the shot going totally overboard.

im guessing you haven't used pin point weapons much or you would realize there is already a penalty. yes you have to lead on your target if it or your self is moving fast. maybe if this game is to tough for you and you feel the damage is to high, you could fine something else to do in your spare time like....

organize sleep overs with your other girlfriends and have a big pillow fight instead of hitting the forums with nerf posts!

Edited by akpavker, 03 December 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

akpavker, on 03 December 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

im guessing you haven't used pin point weapons much or you would realize there is already a penalty. yes you have to lead on your target if it or your self is moving fast. maybe if this game is to tough for you and you feel the damage is to high, you could fine something else to do in your spare time like....

Stop posting nonsense - you won't believe it but when you start to play MWO - you would not recognize it because were a newb - there was someting that didn't allowed you to snap - fire and have perfect convergent shots.
Could happen that you aim at a Awesome and both your shots (from left and right arm did cross in front of that target - an you didn't deal any damage.
All this stuff is gone...heck - I don't have to lead - i believe i have had to reduce the lead range by half - when they removed the convergence solution - and in some cases i think time to lead is not necessary at all (because the split second of flight time of the bullet would be part of the HSR calculations...so you can hit a target although it is impossible to hit that target (depends how your Ping is in comparison to the Ping of your target)

Well in Australia you should have a ankward ping that means you should have seen many ankward shots (you see them hitting a building - and your target explode 5sec later

Masaio, on 03 December 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hate to bring real life into it…. But all modern tanks have turret and weapons systems stabilization. Even cameras on phones have stabilization. They may have it in the future….

Well I didn't even know that - todays tanks uses legs and have multiple weapons all over the hull that converge in a split second on the same target (so they are able to change direction on the area of a dime - and hit a target with the size of a dime at 1500m.

lockwoodx, on 03 December 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Sway doesn't exist now. It sure as hell won't in the future.

You know that weapons have to be redirected?
You move - your target move - and to deliver perfect convergent shots at any distance they have to redirect tons of barrels and capacitors as fast as light speed?

To the suggestion:
I would not modify that value - or aiming penalty - on movement alone.
There must be an input for the range to target

• Lock On
  
• Cursor is over the target
  
• Cursor is next to an obstacle to the target

Next the movement speed of that cursor has to be measured - the faster you move the cursor the worser get the firing solution: vs fast moving targets it would be a kind of spray and pray.
Important is that each weapon it self got its own accuracy and dispersion value:
When you fire all 9 MLAS of your Hunchback - you won't want them hit the same spot of air - when no accurate firing solution is available. They have to spread over an area (maybe a Cone Of Fire) - You try to get that fast moving Spider in to that circle and hit fire: with luck some shots will hit that target.

However:
First we need a working solution for convergence (it would be enough - when those Elite SKILL would actually do anything)
And of course there must be a accuracy and dispersion value for each weapon (even when they are of the same kind)

[Mycrus]

I don't think a tank's main gun is affected by "sway".. That said I would like barrel type weapons *to stop* from converging while face hugging..

In the same way that tanks don't normally use their main guns in extremely close range.. They shift to MGs, grenade launchers and wut not..

Lazors should be exempted from this effect because the focusing watchamacallit can be rotated at angle (like tag lazors on fighter jets toooooday)...

I will stop playing and will request for a refund if cone of fire or RNG aim gets implemented..

Edited by Mycrus, 04 December 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Mycrus, on 04 December 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

I will stop playing and will request for a refund if cone of fire or RNG aim gets implemented..

Well - given the choice between you and me....could anybody give this guy his money back - please please please

[Sir Ratburger]

Mechs have advanced Giros to stop swaying, humans don't really have the benefit of this. I can see a logical explanation why a war machine would have this feature built in.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

All realism posts are nonsense. Is not simulation of real robo, its not simulation of our future.
Well is not simulation at all, but... it is based on altrnative fictional battletech universe and table top game in this. So if should be compared to something should be compared to TT and to BT universe.
TT wise is one of fundamental balance rules. Stand still +0, you walks +1, you run +2, you jump +3 (to the hit roll).
So is quiet obvious that penatly like this could be implemented in to this game.
That along with heat penatlys and just imagine how many major flaws this game has, would be instantly resolved.
Like: pinpoint demage, snipe jumping, ghost heat, time to kill, real heat scale and list goes on...

Anyone that dont see this, is quiet short visioned, has universe lore in the little hole and want the game to be dumb downed, just like PGI actually.

[KinLuu]

This is a bad idea.

Mobility is weak enough as is.

The problem is not, that it is to easy to hit targets while moving, the problem is, that it is to easy to hit moving targets.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Sybreed, on 03 December 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

and battlemechs will be the main warfare apparatus we'll see in the future

Well we'll either be seeing terminators and/or battlemechs in the future.

Boston Dynamics has been making fine progress with their prototypes:

[CrashieJ]

Masaio, on 03 December 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Hate to bring real life into it…. But all modern tanks have turret and weapons systems stabilization. Even cameras on phones have stabilization. They may have it in the future….

seeing as the Battletech universe nuked themselves back into the perverbial stone age: most likely not without C3 COMPUTERS AND COMMAND CONSOLES.

we seriously have to find a way to make those 3 tons worthwhile

[Karl Streiger]

gavilatius, on 04 December 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

seeing as the Battletech universe nuked themselves back into the perverbial stone age: most likely not without C3 COMPUTERS AND COMMAND CONSOLES.

we seriously have to find a way to make those 3 tons worthwhile

The Command console is for command line nukes - but you can use the command line nukes not prior to 3057

KinLuu, on 04 December 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

The problem is not, that it is to easy to hit targets while moving, the problem is, that it is to easy to hit moving targets.

Thats the reason - I would not use the movement of the Mech but the movement of the mouse cursor - although i admit its suboptimal - because it means that hitting a target far away is simpler as hitting the same target at shorter range.
So there has to be another value (range - and time to target)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 December 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[Profiteer]

This would only apply to AC weapons & PPCs I guess.

Lasers fire at the speed of light and are thus pinpoint.

SRMS are inaccurate enough as they are.

I guess you could give the AC2 a very modest 'hit cone', making it larger as you move up through 5,10/PPC,20. That would make the AC20 rather inaccurate past 300m or so.

I could be on-board with that; not sure we really need it though.

[Koniving]

Sybreed, on 03 December 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

the more I believe we should have some kind of movement sway. Considering all the FPS I played in the past, I have a hard time understanding how people want and tolerate having completely pinpoint accuracy even when moving full speed.

IMO, there needs to be an aiming penalty for firing while moving, translated mostly into loss of accuracy at long range, without the shot going totally overboard. At short range, it means losing pinpoint convergence, but most if not all shots will connect. One might think it would nerf light mechs too much, but when you think about it, being at close range and firing smaller caliber weapons isn't as penalizing as firing big cannons (think "mobility" aspect in other FPS, higher mobility means you can move faster and be more accurate while moving).

So, I know this isn't something we'll see this decade, but I think this would help balance the pinpoint meta.

Switch to third person view. Watch the crosshair. We already have this balance, but it's designed to impede and punish third person view players. Switch back to first person, notice there's no bob, perfect pinpoint. Now you know one of the things I've been pushing for ever since before the first iteration of third person.



Take a moment to watch some Highlanders walk. Oddly enough they are some of the more stable mechs in MWO in terms of animations. There are many that are much worse.


A quick comparison of 'perfect pinpoint' to 'bouncing aim penalty'

Raven 4X perfect pinpoint, non-pinpoint.

Now compare that bob to what the original poster is talking about, here with 5x zoom on a Jager.