110 replies to this topic

[Geek Verve]

sneeking, on 04 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

simply put though, the old matching process is incompatible with the new spawning process.

for this to work the matching needs to assemble properly constructed lances.

No, it doesn't. Players just need to play like they're on a team. When they don't, things go south. This has always been and will always be the case, regardless of any trickery performed by the match maker.

[Geek Verve]

Mcchuggernaut, on 04 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Ok, so I had another one of those **** games on Terra Therma where this spawn nonsense happened. Next time this configuration occurs I will take a screenshot and show what I mean. Basically, f you are the right-most lance in this particular setup and anything heavier than a medium you are screwed. You have to get over some mountains to the left or do a huge backtrack to catch the other two lances because they tend to merge and not ever want to backtrack and go back and around the mountains to meet you. Either you spend the whole game looping back to chase them and maybe arriving near the end of the game if you haven't been found, mobbed, and killed, or you go through the center crater and usually meet at least two merged enemy lances who have the high ground and are subsequently slaughtered. This time I explained on chat to my team what would happen, and that they would lose a lance if they didn't form up. They ignored me, charged off, lost our cut off lance, then got ***** by a team a third larger than ours. Honestly, it's so certain of a loss I will be sorely tempted to quit the match next time I see this particular cluster-**** of a setup on that map. And I have never quit a game before till I was dead or we won. That's how bad it is. But if it is certain to just end with a loss, no C-bills, experience, or FUN, what's the damn point?

Remember this when you choose to play a slow assault and make them even slower by throwing a 255 engine in, so you can max out all the weapon hard points.

Seriously, this game is all about choices. You can't expect to lean to one extreme and never have to deal with the disadvantages that go along with it. Assault mechs carry the most armor in the game. As such they have trouble with hills and inclines. This is a bigger problem on some maps than others. Everyone knows this. If your lance mates run off and leave you, then you just got stuck with a crappy lance. It's going to happen. No changes of any kind will insulate you from that possibility. Find some friends to drop with. It cures a lot of ills.

I might also suggest you start such matches with something like, "Hey guys, I have trouble getting started on this map. Mind hanging back until I get up this hill?"

[Mcchuggernaut]

Geek Verve, on 04 December 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Remember this when you choose to play a slow assault and make them even slower by throwing a 255 engine in, so you can max out all the weapon hard points.

I might also suggest you start such matches with something like, "Hey guys, I have trouble getting started on this map. Mind hanging back until I get up this hill?"

I run a damn 350, lol. I can't get much bigger of an engine in there! (there are two bigger sizes, and an XL in an Atlas is suicide.)

As for the "Hey guys!" I did that, to no avail. It's a bad spawn setup where one side pretty much always loses. I don't think it has much to do with my mech choice, which works just fine and dandy except for two specific spawns on two maps where the new spawns were just implemented today. If when your team starts in that position it consistently gets wrecked, it isn't me. I don't see why it would be.

[Thorn Hallis]

Turmaline has some deathtraps too. If you happen to spawn on the lower left point you have no chance to get to your teammates undamaged, as the opposing team starts right at the ridge.

[Mcchuggernaut]

It's almost like they didn't test these at all before implementing them. Some maps it improved, some it has caused huge problems. I'm pretty patient, but I have spent the last day of my free time being slaughtered every time I start on one side of Terra Therma, and frankly it isn't fun any more. I don't want to play on that map at the moment, and I had no problem with it before now. I definitely don't want to be that tool that quits when he sees a map he doesn't want, so I may just do something else for a week until the next patch. If they fix it. If it is fixed in a week. I'm not expecting expediency, based on the glacial pace it takes for things get smoothed out sometimes...

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 04 December 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Tell me, where are your other 3 lance mates when you get ripped?

[Mcchuggernaut]

o0Marduk0o, on 04 December 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Tell me, where are your other 3 lance mates when you get ripped?

That IS the question, isn't it? Haha. Sometimes the poor sods get ambushed with me, sometimes they run off somewhere. Neither option ends well. Sometimes I am not at the worst starting position, but that lance always gets killed, so we end up a third under-strength and eventually get killed anyway by superior numbers of grouped opponents. That spawn setup just doesn't work well.

[Geek Verve]

Mcchuggernaut, on 04 December 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I run a damn 350, lol. I can't get much bigger of an engine in there! (there are two bigger sizes, and an XL in an Atlas is suicide.)

As for the "Hey guys!" I did that, to no avail. It's a bad spawn setup where one side pretty much always loses. I don't think it has much to do with my mech choice, which works just fine and dandy except for two specific spawns on two maps where the new spawns were just implemented today. If when your team starts in that position it consistently gets wrecked, it isn't me. I don't see why it would be.

Yeah, I actually meant "you" in a general sense, not you in particular. Honestly, I have yet to see a situation in any particular map for which there is no counter. In the case of that spawn point on Tourmaline, there is sufficient cover in the immediate vicinity. Use it for 30-60 seconds, giving the other lances on your team time to engage the ridge lance. That's still the first position the rest of your team is going to attack.

Like I said, though. Mechs of all weight classes and builds have their challenges. This one is just specific to slower mechs. Try running a light or medium on Caustic or Alpine, where there is little cover to be found, unless you avoid the enemy altogether. LRM boat on River City or Tourmaline. Laser boat on Tourmaline or Terra Therma (shudder).

[DONTOR]

Oh ya time to exploit this commando style!

[oldradagast]

On the larger maps, the spawn points are a bit too far spaced, IMHO. Of course, with the potential for varied game modes and such in the future, there may be situations (attack, defense, whatever) where such wide points do make sense.

The reality, however, is that PUGs simply don't listen. Now, that problem is more obvious, but not necessarily more common. On the flip side, an argument could be made that if you only spawn around 3 other team members vs. 11, each player might realize that blundering off is an even worse idea because you don't have 11 other guys to (maybe) follow you, and you no longer know exactly where the rest of the enemy team is.

The game definitely needs better coms and command systems - that'll resolve most of this stuff.

[Mcchuggernaut]

So is it generally agreed there is at least some fine-tuning that needs to be done? I can defend my position, supply evidence, and talk about this until I am blue in the face, but that would probably just start a huge circular argument and solve nothing. Should we make a poll? Start a thread that suggests possible fixes? Determining if there was a problem and making sure that it wasn't just me and trying to get a fix in the works was really the whole point of me starting this topic anyway.

Lance coordination problems in PUGS seems to be exacerbating this, but I have no idea if that will change after people get tired of getting chewed up over the next few weeks or not. I'm all for some spawn variation as long as it is implemented practically and works to improve the game. The only idea I have that wouldn't require a pretty in-depth re-work of things and might be an easy and quick fix is just moving the starting lance positions a bit closer together or placing them in spots where terrain doesn't sometimes severely inhibit forming up easily. That's all I got. Maybe someone will hit on a better idea, but that's my best right now.

[Bobdolemite]

Ill chime in with the others here, if your teammates leave you high and dry thats a bad team. And bad teams deserve to lose.

The old rigmarole is not working right now since people are finding new tactics/paths/options.

I find that trying to re-join the blob can be a terribad choice now. Your better off sticking with your lance and trying not to stray too far from the other lances.

If the enemy team blobs up and tries the old tricks use your speed and maneuverability as 3 lances working together to get the upper hand.


....

part of the issue here is people have not acclimated to the new spawnpoints, distance from one another "can" be irrelevant if you stick with your lance and try to be useful to the rest of the team by paying attention to where engagements are happening. Seen a ton of swing lances come in and mop up an attack that would have otherwise eaten half their team.

[Geek Verve]

Mcchuggernaut, on 04 December 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

So is it generally agreed there is at least some fine-tuning that needs to be done? I can defend my position, supply evidence, and talk about this until I am blue in the face, but that would probably just start a huge circular argument and solve nothing. Should we make a poll? Start a thread that suggests possible fixes? Determining if there was a problem and making sure that it wasn't just me and trying to get a fix in the works was really the whole point of me starting this topic anyway.

I think it is *way* to soon to be making any such assumptions.

Why don't you play it a while. Make an effort to adapt. You had to get used to the previous versions of the maps - how to play them, what areas to stay away from. I think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to play the current maps with a "business as usual" mindset.

[Bront]

Knowing where the spawn points are goes both ways. They know where you are, and you know where they're coming from. Use your knowledge to run away.

Communicating is the best way to counter this, and yes, sometimes it doesn't work, but when it doesn't, there's a good chance you're lost anyway.

In PUGS, speed has always been more important than in 12 mans, because you need to be able to change your position more to follow an undiciplined (working together) group. The new spawn points seem to emphasize this more.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Geek Verve, on 04 December 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I think it is *way* to soon to be making any such assumptions.

Why don't you play it a while. Make an effort to adapt. You had to get used to the previous versions of the maps - how to play them, what areas to stay away from. I think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to play the current maps with a "business as usual" mindset.

Point taken. I will give it time and see if anything changes. I do doubt pugs will change significantly, just because of the inherent nature of pugs, but we'll see.

Quite a thread this spawned! A lot of good discussion and interesting points .

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 04 December 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[DaddyP1G]

This just makes most pugs impossible to play with. Mostly because they are idiots that don't care about anyone but their own K/D

[DaZur]

Um... you're dropping with a lance right?

Might want to give the rest of your lance hell for pinning back their ears and blowing out of there and sacrificing you to the wolf-pack...

This is not necessarily an example of a bad spawn point (can't deny it is contributing) but a good example of mindless teammates and poor appreciation of lance support.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Kaden Kildares, on 04 December 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

This just makes most pugs impossible to play with. Mostly because they are idiots that don't care about anyone but their own K/D

Well, I like to be good, so I do care about my K/D, but I realize that team performance directly effects it. If my team is being slaughtered and I know if I charge in I will just become another casualty I will occasionally hang back and look for a near-death enemy to take with me so I can at least get one kill before being swarmed and wasted. Mind you I only do this when the situation is absolutely hopeless, and if I get in a hopeless situation in the beginning of the game I will deal as much damage as I can before dying in hopes someone cleans up my wounded adversary and the the damage I did weakens the enemy and helps my team achieve victory. Some players seem to lose sight of the fact that gaining a tactical advantage will result in more games won and more kills overall though.

DaZur, on 04 December 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Um... you're dropping with a lance right?

Might want to give the rest of your lance hell for pinning back their ears and blowing out of there and sacrificing you to the wolf-pack...

This is not necessarily an example of a bad spawn point (can't deny it is contributing) but a good example of mindless teammates and poor appreciation of lance support.

Give them hell how? cuss them on chat after you die? THAT will make you look great and make people inclined to listen... Then you'll look like that {Richard Cameron} blaming things on a lousy team (warranted or not). It's kind-of a no-win.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 04 December 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Warrior UK]

The new drop locations are OK but some are a bit to much, dropped on Tourmaline after patch and our lance was put by the eye with the rest of the team either at old drop location and on far right of old drop location. Our lance was heavy's and assaults that got ***** due to drop location. This drop location needs to move closer to base, not be half way across the map. There are others on other maps that are like this. Frozen City is another, a lance of four dropped in Jenner alley, big advantage for them to only have to go another five hundred meters to be behind us. These drop locations need another look at it is also slitting the team of 12 leaving less experienced players to get picked of while trying to get back to main group. Other than that please rebalance PGI

[Evax]

Solo drops are nigh impossible. The grouping of the mechs makes no sense. Atlases with lights that get left alone, on the big maps you are so far apart you can get swarmed by lightsand the lack of quick communication tools leaves you walking in a straight line while typing or standing still getting left behind.PGI use this mechanic for 12 man drops only or use the TEST SERVER, Test things with more then the people you employ to QC.


It is also starting to limit mech builds in pug drops...with the threat of being left alone I am seeing tons of AC/20 and PPC builds. It was already popular but now its a matter of survival. DPS just gets you killed, while front-loaded damage may give you a chance at the very least to maim an enemy before dying.

Edited by Evax, 04 December 2013 - 03:25 PM.