110 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Mcchuggernaut, on 04 December 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Give them hell how? cuss them on chat after you die? THAT will make you look great and make people inclined to listen... Then you'll look like that {Richard Cameron} blaming things on a lousy team (warranted or not). It's kind-of a no-win.

I've yet (thankfully)) experienced being left in the dust by my lance... That said, I'd be pretty vocal "while" they were in the process of deserting you... to the extent of letting them know you're in a slow mech and ask for a little lance support.

Obviously if they're all a bunch of derps... there's not much you can do.

That said, having prefaced that and they still ignoring you gives your judicial right to berate them post death and not look like a Richard.

[Corvus Antaka]

imho spawn points need to be randomized ro we need 3-4 versions of each map.

[DaZur]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 04 December 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

imho spawn points need to be randomized ro we need 3-4 versions of each map.

Fully agree...

I've thought for a long time that each map should have 3 to 4 different iterations of spawn patterns so each drop would require slightly different strategy and would also encourage engagements in different areas of the map other than "the middle".

[LQuinze]

Bobdolemite, on 04 December 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

And bad teams deserve to lose.

No one is arguing against this. Bad teams should lose. The question being asked is "Do lucky teams deserve to win?" (i.e. ones favoured by whatever arcane formula the matchmaker uses and whatever drop point you draw), and whether or not the randomness adds an additional level of frustration to play.

Edited by LQuinze, 04 December 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[Bobdolemite]

LQuinze, on 04 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

No one is arguing against this. Bad teams should lose. The question being asked is "Do lucky teams deserve to win?" (i.e. ones favoured by whatever arcane formula the matchmaker uses and whatever drop point you draw), and whether or not the randomness adds an additional level of frustration to play.

I think the unlucky teams are a symptom of people not coping with the changes well, not an indication that the change was a bad one. I do agree though that it would be nice if MM would match lances with like tonnages.

The lance issue could be solved in several ways: commander shuffling lances (though we dont get enough time for this), A lobby system where we can set our lances before hand, in game with players realizing the mismatch and playing accordingly (backing up their teammates rather than running off and leaving them to die.)

I feel that some of these issues will be corrected with time as players acclimate to this "skirmish" based combat, but not all. As long as MM is throwing together lances "randomly" then there will sometimes be mismatches.

All in all though I view this as a good change, perhaps a change that needs tweaking but absolutely loving the game play at the moment (and I PUG exclusively) truly random spawn points is where I believe it should end up but I realize this is a contested idea at the moment =)

[Mcchuggernaut]

Bobdolemite, on 04 December 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

I think the unlucky teams are a symptom of people not coping with the changes well, not an indication that the change was a bad one.

To a point. A lighter mech can cope by running back quickly to the main group, OR can go off looking to pick off stragglers with another group of lighter mechs. The big guys CAN'T. They simply cannot do anything but hope they get dropped with a lance of similar-sized mechs that can fend off harassers while they return to the main group, or are left behind at the mercy of fast packs of smaller mechs. You can't "adjust tactics" and get out of this situation like so many people are implying, because you are at the mercy of other teammates using sound judgement, and luck. Two things a tactical player can NOT count on in PUGS.

[LQuinze]

Bobdolemite, on 04 December 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

The lance issue could be solved in several ways: commander shuffling lances (though we dont get enough time for this), A lobby system where we can set our lances before hand, in game with players realizing the mismatch and playing accordingly (backing up their teammates rather than running off and leaving them to die.)

I hope a proper lobby is somewhere in the pipeline. It's one feature that seems to have been consistently requested time and time again, and to date there's nothing on it so I'm not exactly hopeful.

As to the stop-gap solution - player's realizing the mismatch, Mchuggernaut says it best.

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

The big guys CAN'T.

Let's take an extreme hypothetical here - let's say the majority of a team's assaults end up dropped opposite a bunch of enemy lights/mediums on a far out side of the map. The light/medium lance plays smart and books it out of there and reinforces the other two enemy lances, which creates an immediate 12v8 scenario for the rest of the team while the assaults chug their way back to try and help out. By the time they arrive the rest of the team is a smoking crater.

Granted, this may happen in only a few drops. You may argue that the unlucky team does have a recourse - they can attempt a disengagement, fall back, and try to regroup, temporarily giving up ground to bring the match back to a more neutral state.

But it's a disadvantageous situation that is dictated purely by the dumb luck of the matchmaker, rather than a tactical error on the team's part. As I stated before, no one is suggesting bad teams should win. They naturally should face consequences for poor decisions. But to face consequences even *before* you've made a bad call?

Being able to pre-select and/or re-assign drop points (and possibly even 'mechs) would ameliorate this. These were part of the Mechwarrior multiplayer environment in previous iterations and I wouldn't say it impoverished the gameplay experience by any means. PUGs will always be PUGs; they'll make terrible calls, derp up optimal drop zone placements, and so forth. But they will be facing those consequences as a result of their choices, rather than the whims of a capricous matchmaker.

Finally, it hasn't been raised very much, but re-assigning lancemates in the ready screen does not change drop positions either, rendering this option rather pointless with the new drop-zone mechanics (not that many people actually took advantage of this).

Edited by LQuinze, 05 December 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 05 December 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[xhrit]

Geek Verve, on 04 December 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

No, it doesn't. Players just need to play like they're on a team. When they don't, things go south. This has always been and will always be the case, regardless of any trickery performed by the match maker.

So all this change really does it make games longer, because both sides have to regroup into a blob before they start the fight...

OR it makes games more one sided when one side doesnt regroup and charges off to die one by one.

[Henry Morgan]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

I have to agree with Mcchug on the Terra Therma map he's posted above. If they could move that upper spawn point to the valley part in C7 it might be better.

On some of the smaller maps (Frozen City, River City) the new, spread out spawn points seem to be more of a negative than a positive. I do like the new bases in River City though. But the attempt spread out the spawn points on such small maps has the game starting with lances almost on top of each other.

[Zvanya]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

I have spawned there a couple times myself and had no choice but to slog up along the valley with steep sidces I couldnt climb. I see no possible justification for seperating lances so widely and making it so hard to rejoin the group - other than just making things harder for the hell of it. We tell new players to stay with the group and now you throw them into widely seperate locations to start the match. One lance on the other side of a mountain? Come on.

The basic idea of varying start locations if fine. But they have gone a bit too far on Alpine, TT and Tourmaline. I'd much rather see varying locations for the home base and have everyone drop fairly close to it.

Just modify the start locs on TT, Tourmaline and Alpine a bit and I'll be happy with the change.

Edited by Zvanya, 05 December 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Geek Verve]

xhrit, on 05 December 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

So all this change really does it make games longer, because both sides have to regroup into a blob before they start the fight...

OR it makes games more one sided when one side doesnt regroup and charges off to die one by one.

So, your only solution for engaging a "blob" as a single lance is to charge in and die? What about things like flanking, suppression fire, tactical retreat, reinforcements, pincer maneuvers, choke points, etc.? Are your other lances just happy running around the map with nothing to shoot? No light mechs on the team that can locate the blob for you? If you choose to leave those tactics out of your equation, then yeah, I guess you're screwed.

When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, I guess.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Geek Verve, on 05 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

So, your only solution for engaging a "blob" as a single lance is to charge in and die? What about things like flanking, suppression fire, tactical retreat, reinforcements, pincer maneuvers, choke points, etc.? Are your other lances just happy running around the map with nothing to shoot? No light mechs on the team that can locate the blob for you? If you choose to leave those tactics out of your equation, then yeah, I guess you're screwed.

When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, I guess.

Pretty sure you didn't read the thread up to this point. Or have never played this game. Do you know what focus fire does to you? I have only ever won a 2 on 1 fight where I was the one outnumbered when the enemy was wounded, much lighter and less armored than me, extremely stupid, or I got a headshot. And we are talking worse odds. Choke points and suppressing fire? PLEASE...This isn't Call of Duty. Fight two people alone without the circumstances I mentioned, and you WILL die, tactics be damned. And we were talking about being put in this bad situation in a heavy or assault, who can not run away, flank, or anything else requiring mobility or tactics that can save you. Reinforcements and pincer maneuvers? Are you for real? If you had ******* reinforcements there wouldn't even be any NEED for this whole damn thread!

Sorry, but I get irritated when someone comes in appearing to have NO idea what is going on or not having bothered to read the whole thread and immediately starts in with their "Get skill, you noob, and quit complaining!" answer to everything. If "Get better and play smart" was the answer to all the problems this game has had, then we wouldn't need a patch every two weeks and things like lurmageddon, Splatcats, and the 6 PPC Stalker would still be with us. This is a real problem that you have no real control over and can't get out of that you didn't put yourself in by any prior decision you made. It is a case of getting a crappy spawn that starts heavies and assaults at a disadvantage. I, and most other people that play the game enough to be viewing the forums regularly, probably know how to use effective tactics and don't need them preached to us every time there is a suggestion made that something might need a tweak.

Damnit, now I need a smoke and a sit-down. (grumbles off annoyed into the distance)

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 05 December 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Zvanya, on 05 December 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

The basic idea of varying start locations if fine. But they have gone a bit too far on Alpine and TT. I'd much rather see varying locations for the home base and have everyone drop fairly close to it.

Just modify the start locs on TT and Alpine a bit and I'll be happy with the change.

This I like and agree with.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DaZur, on 04 December 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Fully agree... I've thought for a long time that each map should have 3 to 4 different iterations of spawn patterns so each drop would require slightly different strategy and would also encourage engagements in different areas of the map other than "the middle".

Been saying this for a year now.

[DaZur]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 05 December 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Been saying this for a year now.

I think we have to make a mark on our calendar and do shots or something... We agreed on something!

Good to see you still around...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DaZur, on 05 December 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I think we have to make a mark on our calendar and do shots or something... We agreed on something!

Good to see you still around...

I'm trying, I really am. I LOVE Battletech/Mechwarrior.

I've taken a break from playing and posting for the most part. We'll see if it comes around enough for me to start playing again.

[Mcchuggernaut]

DaZur, on 05 December 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I think we have to make a mark on our calendar and do shots or something... We agreed on something!

Good to see you still around...

Any excuse to drink.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 05 December 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I'm trying, I really am. I LOVE Battletech/Mechwarrior.

I've taken a break from playing and posting for the most part. We'll see if it comes around enough for me to start playing again.

Congrats on 3000 posts!

[Saobh]

An other way of doing this would :
- 10-12 different starting spawn/base points all around the rim of the map
- Have each team start at one of those random points.

That way each role type has its utility back :scouts really are needed as the enemy can as well be in the next spawn point to your right or on the other side of the map. Support aren't left stranded alone. Brawlers can now decide when they brawl thanks to the scouting, and can make quick of the enemy because support peeled the enemy armor off. And it lets the team on its whole the liberty to decide how it will play it out.

Forcing people into lance formation right now doesn't make sense as there are better chances of finding teamwork oriented people in the rest of the team then in the 3 random mechs stuck with you. And like or not the majority of the players of this game are going to be pugs so so if you want them to work together actually give them the tools to appreciate teamwork as right now what is the advantage of working withyour lance rather then any other group in your team ? none

Edited by Saobh, 05 December 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Bilbo]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

I've been there a couple times in an Atlas. If the rest of the lance doesn't leave you, you are ok. On the other hand, I got left once by smaller mechs. Never saw the enemy till the rest of the team was dead, at which point I told them where I was and did what I could when they got to me.......which is to say.....not much.