81 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

All 4 jagermechs, in both alpha and bravo, had the exact same loadout and they knew each other. Its not a coincidence they each had a ECM Atlas either.

Integrated VOIP is irrelevant. Let me put it this way.

You have two football teams playing each other. One team is comprised entirely of professional football players. The other team is comprised of a mix of random people, most of whom barely know how to play the game.

The first team is fully kitted out in professional gear. The other team is kitted out in a mix of their own gear, which might include jeans and dress shoes.

They both have access to the exact same communication tools and planning time for the match. Who wins?

The problem is that both teams shouldnt be playing against each other in the first place. You dont go to a football match to see Arsenal vs a random highschool team or a group of random people who just show up that day. You go to see Arsenal facing off against another team in the same league as them. Talk to any professional sports player and they will tell you the same thing....they wont waste time playing against amateurs in a serious tournament.

By stacking as many OP loadouts on one team as possible, you virtually guarantee a win unless you get extremly unlucky and drop against an enemy premade doing the exact same thing. It literally does not matter how well the enemy communicates, they will get completely pulverized if they are bringing pulse lasers and LRMs up against a ECM bubble with dual AC20 jagermechs and snipers with PPC/Gauss/ACs.

Im also pretty sure the matchmaking doesnt know how to account for ELO when premades get matched up against randoms. Players who play in premades all have outrageously high ELOs....because its pretty much impossible to lose when playing in one (unless your luck is bad, and your team has one premade vs 3 premades). But they are consistently getting matched against newbies in trial mechs or bad loadouts. If the matchmaker was looking at ELOs properly it would be putting all the premades against each other (due to similar ELOs from winning all the time) and randoms against each other (due to losing all the time against premades).

Edited by Jun Watarase, 04 December 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Shredhead]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

All 4 jagermechs, in both alpha and bravo, had the exact same loadout and they knew each other. Its not a coincidence they each had a ECM Atlas either.

Integrated VOIP is irrelevant. Let me put it this way.

You have two football teams playing each other. One team is comprised entirely of professional football players. The other team is comprised of a mix of random people, most of whom barely know how to play the game.

The first team is fully kitted out in professional gear. The other team is kitted out in a mix of their own gear, which might include jeans and dress shoes.

They both have access to the exact same communication tools and planning time for the match. Who wins?

The problem is that both teams shouldnt be playing against each other in the first place. You dont go to a football match to see Arsenal vs a random highschool team or a group of random people who just show up that day. You go to see Arsenal facing off against another team in the same league as them. Talk to any professional sports player and they will tell you the same thing....they wont waste time playing against amateurs in a serious tournament.

By stacking as many OP loadouts on one team as possible, you virtually guarantee a win unless you get extremly unlucky and drop against an enemy premade doing the exact same thing. It literally does not matter how well the enemy communicates, they will get completely pulverized if they are bringing pulse lasers and LRMs up against a ECM bubble with dual AC20 jagermechs and snipers with PPC/Gauss/ACs.

Im also pretty sure the matchmaking doesnt know how to account for ELO when premades get matched up against randoms. Players who play in premades all have outrageously high ELOs....because its pretty much impossible to lose when playing in one (unless your luck is bad, and your team has one premade vs 3 premades). But they are consistently getting matched against newbies in trial mechs or bad loadouts. If the matchmaker was looking at ELOs properly it would be putting all the premades against each other (due to similar ELOs from winning all the time) and randoms against each other (due to losing all the time against premades).

You most certainly don't have a clue how this game works, how match making works and how "premades" work! So I ask you with all due respect to shut up and leave! Spew your hatred elsewhere!

[Atheus]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

.

You are completely overestimating what a premade is. When I premade, people are more likely to be leveling random mechs than piloting some mastered out apex build. Besides, "professional football players" as you put it will be in a different bracket from casuals or newbies, premade or not. Don't make me silly for defending you.

[Jun Watarase]

And yet i posted a screenshot where people stacked OP loadouts to guarantee a auto win.

I know not all premades do that, but the ones that do are rigging matches.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the matchmaker is consistently putting highly ELO players against newbies in trial mechs, etc.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 04 December 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Burke IV]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Integrated VOIP is irrelevant. Let me put it this way.

You have two football teams playing each other. One team is comprised entirely of professional football players. The other team is comprised of a mix of random people, most of whom barely know how to play the game.

The first team is fully kitted out in professional gear. The other team is kitted out in a mix of their own gear, which might include jeans and dress shoes.

They both have access to the exact same communication tools and planning time for the match. Who wins?

The point about voip is that the teams have to be randomised to stop that very thing. The pros will come with coms anyway. If the teams were completey randomised, the "pros" would have to work along side the noobs. Each team would have pros and noobs! its as unbalanced now as it is to stack ecm on one team. Instant in game communication is the only way this will ever happen. and... best of all... people would learn to play the game from this. Tactics that a 2 week player never heard of would open up in front of their eyes, the entire community would benefit and improve this way. I cant see any gaming reason not to have voip....

[Ghogiel]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yet i posted a screenshot where people stacked OP loadouts to guarantee a auto win.

I know not all premades do that, but the ones that do are rigging matches.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the matchmaker is consistently putting highly ELO players against newbies in trial mechs, etc.

>OP loadouts guaranteed to auto win.

>Cites AC40 Jagers

hue

[Shredhead]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yet i posted a screenshot where people stacked OP loadouts to guarantee a auto win.

I know not all premades do that, but the ones that do are rigging matches.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the matchmaker is consistently putting highly ELO players against newbies in trial mechs, etc.

[badkilik]

If you guys want a clear cut picture of an unbalanced team, here you go.



This **** happens way to often for me and the only responses I've ever got about ELO was that mine was too high so it should offset the match... Bu11sh1T if you ask me. ELO can suck it for all I care.

[ShinVector]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yet i posted a screenshot where people stacked OP loadouts to guarantee a auto win.

I know not all premades do that, but the ones that do are rigging matches.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the matchmaker is consistently putting highly ELO players against newbies in trial mechs, etc.

From last night... (MM on the fritz.. Solo pugging and you get put in a team with lots of noobs against.. a team with lots of noobs..)

Being put in a team full of trial mechs is scary...
Learn the art of carrying in 'OP' builds.. And have fun abusing the new spawn points...

badkilik, on 04 December 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

If you guys want a clear cut picture of an unbalanced team, here you go.

This **** happens way to often for me and the only responses I've ever got about ELO was that mine was too high so it should offset the match... Bu11sh1T if you ask me. ELO can suck it for all I care.

It is all your fault ! You high ELO monster you !

Edited by ShinVector, 04 December 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Atheus]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

And yet i posted a screenshot where people stacked OP loadouts to guarantee a auto win.

I know not all premades do that, but the ones that do are rigging matches.

And it still doesnt change the fact that the matchmaker is consistently putting highly ELO players against newbies in trial mechs, etc.

All right, the AC/40 is tough to deal with at times, but it's definitely not undefeatable. The other night I did a ton of 4 mans. We won pretty much all our matches minus one or two. We did random mechs for a while, then all LRM boats, then all DDC's, then back to random mechs, etc. It didn't really matter what we were in, we just kept winning by a landslide. We were definitely not all high end players, either. We typically had damage number ranging between 200-800, with the occasional 1000+ in every match. Still, if you think that certain mechs are just too powerful and create an imbalance, then I guess you know which mech you should be piloting to make it more likely that you have an enjoyable, balanced match.

Still... take a look at your team in your first screen shot. 5 Jaegermechs, a 733C, a Stalker, your 3D... who knows how many were properly configured with AC/20's, if jaegermech is too powerful, it didn't seem to matter in that match. It probably had more to do with coordination, in which case you should really be pulling for VOIP, as I said earlier.

badkilik, on 04 December 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

If you guys want a clear cut picture of an unbalanced team, here you go.



This **** happens way to often for me and the only responses I've ever got about ELO was that mine was too high so it should offset the match... Bu11sh1T if you ask me. ELO can suck it for all I care.

I don't know if you actually add it up, but that's 815 vs 900 tons. It's not all that awfully imba as you seem to say - it's within ~10% or so.

Edited by Atheus, 04 December 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

ShinVector, on 04 December 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

From last night... (MM on the fritz.. Solo pugging and you get put in a team with lots of noobs against.. a team with lots of noobs..)

Being put in a team full of trial mechs is scary...
Learn the art of carrying in 'OP' builds.. And have fun abusing the new spawn points...





It is all your fault ! You high ELO monster you !

Apparently you believe you can solo a 8-12 man premade full of optimized loadouts?

[Jun Watarase]

Atheus, on 04 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

All right, the AC/40 is tough to deal with at times, but it's definitely not undefeatable. The other night I did a ton of 4 mans. We won pretty much all our matches minus one or two. We did random mechs for a while, then all LRM boats, then all DDC's, then back to random mechs, etc. It didn't really matter what we were in, we just kept winning by a landslide. We were definitely not all high end players, either. We typically had damage number ranging between 200-800, with the occasional 1000+ in every match. Still, if you think that certain mechs are just too powerful and create an imbalance, then I guess you know which mech you should be piloting to make it more likely that you have an enjoyable, balanced match.

Still... take a look at your team in your first screen shot. 5 Jaegermechs, a 733C, a Stalker, your 3D... who knows how many were properly configured with AC/20's, if jaegermech is too powerful, it didn't seem to matter in that match. It probably had more to do with coordination, in which case you should really be pulling for VOIP, as I said earlier.


I don't know if you actually add it up, but that's 815 vs 900 tons. It's not all that awfully imba as you seem to say - it's within ~10% or so.

Those jagermechs probably had stock loadouts or really poor loadouts. Facing off against AC40 jagermechs, guess what happens?

Of course you do well in 4 man premades. Now let me know how it feels like to fight 4 AC40 jagermechs with 3 randoms in bad mechs. Now throw in a couple of ECM atlas and sniper assaults with PPC/Gauss.

Co-ordination really has nothing to do with this. Earlier this year i played dozens of games in a 4 man premade. Despite almost no communication beyond "go here" (which just meant following the blob), we had a near 100% win ratio with ZERO effort involved. We werent even running super optimized builds. The matchmaker just kept putting our premade against randoms who couldnt aim and with terrible loadouts. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. The only times we lost were when we went up against other premades with optimized loadouts.

Seriously, try pugging. The odds are so heavily stacked against you due to the broken matchmaking that its a completley different experience.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 04 December 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[badkilik]

The only way to get these guys really do something about any of the problems we have is to stop paying for their lunch. I mean seriously, we give them money and all they've been doing is spending it on who knows what. Not even hotfixes for bugs. Nope gotta wait 2 weeks till the next patch

[Atheus]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Those jagermechs probably had stock loadouts or really poor loadouts. Facing off against AC40 jagermechs, guess what happens?

Of course you do well in 4 man premades. Now let me know how it feels like to fight 4 AC40 jagermechs with 3 randoms in bad mechs. Now throw in a couple of ECM atlas and sniper assaults with PPC/Gauss.

Co-ordination really has nothing to do with this. Earlier this year i played dozens of games in a 4 man premade. Despite almost no communication beyond "go here" (which just meant following the blob), we had a near 100% win ratio with ZERO effort involved. We werent even running super optimized builds. The matchmaker just kept putting our premade against randoms who couldnt aim and with terrible loadouts. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. The only times we lost were when we went up against other premades with optimized loadouts.

Seriously, try pugging. The odds are so heavily stacked against you due to the broken matchmaking that its a completley different experience.

Realize your'e talking to another founder. I've played this game every way there is to play it — solo, 4 man, 8 man, 12 man, grouping with the best of the best (Koreanese), grouping with newbies who couldn't figure out how to control their legs separate from their torso, or chronic bads who just can't seem to aim. The way it goes is if I'm grouped with people at my ELO or above (judging by our relative performance on the final score), my win/loss is pretty close to 1:1. If I'm grouping with people who generally play very poorly, I mop the floor with the enemy team, because I get dragged down to a lower ELO where people just can't seem to hit me, or dodge my attacks. On a field like that, it's hard to lose, but I still manage to do it sometimes.

I agree that it would be nice if matchmaker would use some more sophisticated calculations to make matches a little more fair, but at the same time, be realistic about what can be done, both in terms of evaluating all the variables I mentioned earlier, and working within the limited player base. Haven't you ever noticed that a lot of the names you see are familiar? Even if it's possible to perfectly quantify a player's expected contribution in a given match, would you be willing to wait an extra five minutes each match while it finds opponents for a perfect balance?

[Jun Watarase]

Any lack of players is directly due to the phenomenally slow pace of development plus next to no attempt to fix core issues that have been broken for 1.5 years.

Actually i think if everyone stops giving PGI money they will just shut down and conclude that there is no interest in a mechwarrior game, not that it's due to how broken the game is. I can picture PGI executives explaining it to investors as "the market conditions have changed....there is no longer any demand for mech simulators....". And then someone raises their hand and askes about Hawken.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 December 2013 - 12:55 AM.

[ShinVector]

Jun Watarase, on 04 December 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Apparently you believe you can solo a 8-12 man premade full of optimized loadouts?

Solo as in solo pugging ?

Against a 8-12 'bad' pre-mades.
Or
With a good team.

Why not ? Else.... Explain 'solo'...
The video was meant to Stab fun at your AC40 Jager comments.. There were at least 2 of them in that game... they didn't win. And since I was a Gauss Jager.. I should not count.. LOL..

Jun Watarase, on 05 December 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Any lack of players is directly due to the phenomenally slow pace of development plus next to no attempt to fix core issues that have been broken for 1.5 years.

Actually i think if everyone stops giving PGI money they will just shut down and conclude that there is no interest in a mechwarrior game, not that it's due to how broken the game is. I can picture PGI executives explaining it to investors as "the market conditions have changed....there is no longer any demand for mech simulators....". And then someone raises their hand and askes about Hawken.

Mostly agree except the last.. Part.. There is this thing called the 'Verse'... Find us there later...

Edited by ShinVector, 05 December 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[hercules1981]

Shredhead, on 04 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Let's see. There is not even one 3 or 4 man premade on the other side, maybe an odd 2 man team. Your team had a way better lance composition regarding speed of mechs.
I'd say your team was just bad. That could be an Elo mismatch (I don't know how long your waiting time was), people adapting to those new terrible spawn points, or someone on the other side coordinated his team successfully via ingame chat.
Stuff that premade bogeyman bs, it doesn't apply here.

Although I agree with the your team is just bad statement, 40, 26, 0, and 0 damage isn't gonna get it done but to say that there is no premade just cause the flag of which u represent on the side there is just stupid and doesn't mean **** at least as far as premades go, u can join anybody on a TS server to make a group.

[Jun Watarase]

Solo as in pugging with a bad team against a 8-12 premade players. Anyone can win when pugging if they are lucky enough to get on a team with premade players who carry....

[badkilik]

Jun Watarase, on 05 December 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Any lack of players is directly due to the phenomenally slow pace of development plus next to no attempt to fix core issues that have been broken for 1.5 years.

Actually i think if everyone stops giving PGI money they will just shut down and conclude that there is no interest in a mechwarrior game, not that it's due to how broken the game is. I can picture PGI executives explaining it to investors as "the market conditions have changed....there is no longer any demand for mech simulators....". And then someone raises their hand and askes about Hawken.

Good, be nice if they stopped production of the game. That would mean Living Legends can resume.

[ShinVector]

Jun Watarase, on 05 December 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

Solo as in pugging with a bad team against a 8-12 premade players. Anyone can win when pugging if they are lucky enough to get on a team with premade players who carry....

My answer to you is 'premade' does not always = decent.
Look at the game I was in... 5 Champions mechs in my team and there are only 2 in the enemy team.

My objective right at the start is kill and damage mechs as much as possible before I ran out of meatshie.... 'Team mates !'
It worked out that game.. In the earlier games it was like... 1 kill 700++ damage.. Bad team mates who did little and a lost..

This is PUG life..