219 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Hexenhammer, on 04 December 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

I was going to write a dissertation about what the game needs to do. Instead I'll leave this link here. http://www.gdcvault....e-Wrong-Way-Age

Well, MMO is all short battles, PVP is more skill than gear based, gameplay isn't terribly grindy (though repetitive), there's stuff to buy all across the spectrum, and PGI certainly hasn't limited their sales to things that take a long time to develop - there's new 'mechs out every month, with the minimal-work Hero/Champion variants adding onto that, in addition to cheap cockpit tchotchkes and paint schemes.

The biggest issue is the overall limited content and lack of campaign-style gameplay for players to engage in. Well, that and the utter absence of in-game social tools, which is just ridiculous.

Or were you referring to "The Most Important Slide"/"Production Model Failure"?

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 05 December 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Kanatta Jing, on 05 December 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Here look at this Timberwolf, and focus down on it's prime config and grab the nerf bat.

It starts with 2x ER medium las, 2x ER large las, 2 LRM 20, 2 machine guns and a medium pulse.

Lets jam in the Heavy Laser versions in instead of the ER Las. It's 2.3 times as hot as a regular las for the same range and double damage. They are better for DPS up until the heat cap is reached and then they are slightly worse.

Up until we have evidence to suggest that Heavy Lasers aren't significantly better then IS standard we'll put a "clan only" tag on them.

Now we come to the first problem. The Clan ER Large and Heavy Large Las are each one ton lighter then the IS equivilant. Lets correct this and pump both of those up to an even 5 tons making the build 2 tons over weight.

But it's two tons. This build has a single Medium Pulse looking all dorky on it, so lets just rip that out.

Now lets look at those LRM 20s. The Clan version is 5 tons, or half the weight of the IS version. There isn't much choice but to slash them down to LRM 10s. But 2x LRM 10s is a respectable long range solution in MWO and saves missles.

Lastly we grab a file and shave off a half ton of armor to fit the full weight of the two machine guns.

The last stage of the nerfing can be adjusting the Clan XL into an IS XL of the same weight and speed. Except that the IS 375 XL is a full 7 tons heavier then the clan version. The IS xl of the same weight is the 330 and a 75 ton mech can go 71.6 rather then 86.4. A 15km speed drop kinda hurts it really does.

With the XL we have 43 slots, -6 for lasers, -4 for missles, -2 for MG, -3 for Ammos, gives us exactly 28 so it could fit the IS versions of Ferro and Endo.

Except we forgot 2 of the double heatsinks that can't fit into the engine anymore.

Well lets just upgrade the Engine 2 tons to an XL 345, for a speed of 74.5.

There, it looks like a Timberwolf, hits like a Timberwolf, moves like a Timberwolf but it doesn't poke you to death from 1776m like a Timberwolf. It has to do so from within 900m.

2.3 times heat for 2x damage can be applied to PPCs to create Heavy PPCs.

Now as for the Auto-cannons... I really don't know. We could just apply half the range of the IS cannon line to the total batch?

i know what you can do with auto cannons make them twice as heavy and shot only once every 20 seconds, it's fits in with the rest of your bizzaro tech balancing!

Whatzituyah, on 05 December 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

I bet you will see alot of Battletech fans walk out of the doors of MWO to the classics because this would be too much for them to handle.

they already left, the catapult missles already destroyed respect for the designs and tackling clan material like that other post above would also kill the game.

[Navy Sixes]

pbiggz, on 05 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I dont understand why this is still even being debated, people are battling it like they think what they say will stop the nerfs that ARE coming.

Agreed. But I wouldn't call them nerfs. That would imply they were here and we used them and PGI made them weaker. People are crying over things they haven't even seen yet, things that haven't even been built yet.

This is people who thought they were going to get to climb into a MadCat and score double-digit kills against IS mechs. If that's why you play the game, if that's what you're in this for, hurry up and rage-quit (for real, this time) so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves.

[Thorqemada]

Its already a huge buff to Clantech when it has less weight an slot requirements.
If i can equip my IS-Mech now with Clantech ES + FF + a Clan-XL-Engiine that keeps me alife when a ST blows up and i can equip heavier weapon for having some more tons free the firepower already increases without having stronger weapons.

Any IS Mech with a weak CT will immediately become outclasssed as Mech with bigger STs gain a huge survivability buff from a Clan-XL (simply bcs 2xST > 1xCT).

Clan ES, FF, XL-Engines will render the IS-Tech-Equivalents immediately outcassed.
DHS depend on if you put them into your Mech for Heatdissipation or Defense (of the internal structure).

Clan-XL-Engines will render Standard-Engines outclassed.

Assaults will suddenly equip Clantech ES+FF (yay, even more heavy weapons).

Its already a mess to handle only from less Weight and Slot requirements bcs it already increases the Lethality of any Mech and some Mech will gain more of it as others and the whole "Balance" is screwed one more time.

Now come with way superior Clan-Mechs and Weapons...

Edited by Thorqemada, 05 December 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[pbiggz]

Mixed Weapons (if weapons are balanced it should be a legitimate choice, both IS and Clan weapons will have different advantages and drawbacks) and pure tech (No clan XL on your IS mechs), with canon limitations on omnimechs (one of the few points in canon where omnimechs are inferior to battlemechs) such as unmodifiable internals and armor.

It IS possible, but if you are a hardline "keep clans broken" player, you are in for a shock, i'v said it before and I will keep saying it, the clan nerf is coming, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Edited by pbiggz, 05 December 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[Novakaine]

RedDragon, on 05 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

• PGI introduces the Clans and throws their current plans for CW over board. There won't be any fighting for border planets while the Clans are invading.

And this is the most likely sad and stupid outcome of this.
Clan talk before Community Warfare is just bait and switch.

[Windsaw]

Tycho von Gagern, on 05 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

This is people who thought they were going to get to climb into a MadCat and score double-digit kills against IS mechs. If that's why you play the game, if that's what you're in this for, hurry up and rage-quit (for real, this time) so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves.

Don't overgeneralize so much or you would be wrong.
Sure, such people exist. But are they even the majority? Or even very common? I mean, such a line of thought requires a complete lack of common sense, and I still think most people still have such a thing like common sense.

Just speaking for myself, I was hoping (and in the beginning expecting) scenarios like this:
- Several IS mechs against a single Dire Wolf. May the best one win!
- Delay missions. Equal number of IS mechs and Clan mechs. The IS are not supposed to kill the enemies, but delay them and prevent them from destroying a certain target in a certain amount of time.
- Clan mechs are not something that can be bought, but something that have to be earned by whatever community warfare system will be implemented. That way the ratio of clan mechs and IS mechs can be controlled.
- Rewards for IS victories are much much bigger than for Clan victories. Positive side effect: Those players who are just out for simple kills and not for teamwork are more grouped together, which works in favor for overall balance.

I am not saying that all of these will work. They are just ideas. And I am sure there are much more ideas out there. Some of them would work.

However, I agree that none of them will ever be implemented.
Because in the months that followed the time when I joined closed beta it became increasingly clear that what this game is balanced towards is the following:
- After some initial grind, every player must be able to play everything, every time in whatever way they want. (a very bad idea to begin with IMO)
- Asymmetric missions are not an option. Every game must be as symmetric as possible.
- Just kills count, nothing else. (it is the only somewhat relevant statistic left after ELO was introduced)

I know that PGI initially planned to offer alternatives to each of these points, but they dropped one after the other and for a very long time didn't even try anymore and progressively balanced the game in favor of these three points.

They can't just turn the project in another direction just for Clan tech. But they would have to. Of course they won't do. Battletech lore has become so irrelevant to them by now that if they would announce total invisiblity modules and self repairing armor I would not be surprised.

What I would hope they would do now is dropping the idea of introducing Clans altogether.
There is a difference between introducing Clans and introducing something and calling it "Clans".
Do it right or don't do it at all.

[Void Angel]

Jak Darren, on 04 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

The COMPELLING part of Clan stuff was that they used less hardware to do more with, and their honor system was their downfall, at least in facing us. Clipping THEIR wings means the technological advancements the Inner Sphere had to come up with are no longer as pressing. You are taking one of the most interesting fights against a superior foe and making it dull.

Where have I heard this sort of thing before? Oh yes, now I remember!

There is no way to balance this game with Clan tech as written, as the quote you used points out. Battle Value isn't a solution, nor is the rulebook for the other game a Balance Bible for this one - on the contrary, the tabletop rules as written are horribly wrong for MWO because we're not using fracking dice (real or "cone of fire" simulated) to hit with weapons. Given the different format, Clan weapons need to be toned down to sanity.

MechWarrior Online is a game set in a certain fictional universe. It is not a Battletech LARP. for the internet. Everything does not have to be just like the tabletop game for the simple reason that it cannot be like the tabletop game and still be fun for everyone. Oh sure, you could try to implement point values, but all that will mean is that there only get to be a small number of Adjective Animals, and everyone else has to use second-rate tech. That doesn't sound very fun; one side bestrides the battlefield like the ancient gods, and their pygmy enemies try to drag them down by sheer numbers. Hrm, which side do I want to be? And how do you decide who gets to be the Space Fascists? Do we just choose? Hey, real estate prices in the Inner Sphere just crashed - you can get 'mech bays for a steal! Or we could make it a contest! That's a great idea; anyone who wants to play as Clan Chartreuse Pony has to constantly grind to keep ahead of the Joneses or be banished back to the Mech Ghetto. That won't drive any rage or frustration at all. Oh, and aside from a few masochistic roleplayers, the Inner Sphere would be composed of newbies and the dregs who couldn't make the cut...

I could keep going for a while, but no way I can see - tier system? lottery? - can really parcel out the Clan toys in a manner that's both equitable and fun. This isn't tabletop; you can't just give one player more 'mechs to offset the tech advantage on the other side. The fundamental, structural differences in the genre of this game means that the factors that make for a balanced game are different than those of the tabletop game. Persistently, insistently, VERY LOUDLY proclaiming that the Holy Word of Fasa has already solved balance issues that did not yet exist by the apparently Divine Inspiration of Jordan Weissman and L. Ross Babcock is irrational - it is insane. Folks need to stop doing it before they get locked up and given mind altering drugs.

[FupDup]

pbiggz, on 05 December 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

... with canon limitations on omnimechs (one of the few points in canon where omnimechs are inferior to battlemechs) such as unmodifiable internals and armor.

Actually, the thing with Battlemechs in canon is that everything was unmodifiable on them unless you had refit kits. The only weakness of Omnimechs is that they cost a lot more. Otherwise, they were more customizable, not less. Note that I'm not talking about how things should/shouldn't be in MWO, I'm just saying how it was in canon (which isn't always the same as the former).

In terms of MWO gameplay (as opposed to canon), the thing is that many Clan stock designs came with extremely terrible armor, engine, and/or hardwired weapon configurations. For instance, the Adder is a light mech that can only go 97 KPH and has an unremovable Flamer in its head. That mech is DOA. The Hellbringer is a heavy with the armor of a Cicada. Also DOA. The Kit Fox is also a 97 KPH light. Also DOA. The list goes on. The number of truly viable Clan Omnimechs would countable on one hand. There is also the issue of second-line Clan Battlemechs, which by merit of not being Omnis, would share the customization system with IS Battlemechs. They would be objectively superior to Omnimechs in every imaginable way, if we restricted Omnis too heavily.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

I will say it again, the problem doesn't lie with the Clan Tech, it Lies with the Game Player who doesn't know and doesn't care about playing like a true clansmen. It was the Clan Honour system that was their weakness and what led to the 15 year truce in the IS.

With no way of enforcing the Zellbringen there is no choice but to hardcore nerf the Clan Tech. the L33T Players who are the Ashhats who simply jump in the biggest baddest mech they can get their hands on and then go on a kill stealing spree, breaking all rules and going right to Grand Melee are the real issue here. IF they could be controlled and forced to obey the Clan Rules of warfare including granting mercy and minimalistic battles then they could bring in Clan Tech as writen in the Lore. the IS Pilots who are true to their roll would love a chance to test themselves. but as I said earlier, this is a pipe dream.

[Thejuggla]

Well clan tech is always better for all the mech games I've played, I don't see the problem with this. It has always been interchangeable between Clan and IS mechs, so if it is kept that way it will not be overpowered. I think clan tech SHOULD be better and would fill the role of end game weaponry that costs more. I don't know the exact differences besides weight and crit slots, but have heard thinks like clan LRMs don't have a minimum range which would be something to consider throwing out.

I wouldn't say keeping clan weapons how they've always been would throw out the balance, I think the balance currently is horrible with terribly thought out things like charge on gauss, when it has never had a charge, or ghost heat. Both would of be fixed with hard point sizing because there would be very few mechs that could do ppcs with gauss, or boat multiple ppcs ect, but they would be balanced(awesome carries 3 PPC but is huge and easy to kill)

[Artgathan]

Just go the way suggested by Randall Bills:

Give the Clans their killing power. Just make it short range and really hot.

[FupDup]

Artgathan, on 06 December 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Just go the way suggested by Randall Bills:

Give the Clans their killing power. Just make it short range and really hot.

I think I'd still give the Clans some sort of self-defense at range, but just less effective than Inner Sphere "sniper" weapons (just like how the IS will still have some short-range weapons to defend against Clanners who get in their face). Naturally, they would have no indirect-fire capabilities whatsoever, and no access to artillery/air strikes (or the upcoming turrets).

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

FupDup, on 06 December 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

I think I'd still give the Clans some sort of self-defense at range, but just less effective than Inner Sphere "sniper" weapons (just like how the IS will still have some short-range weapons to defend against Clanners who get in their face). Naturally, they would have no indirect-fire capabilities whatsoever.

Like... Turning their LRMs into LBX shots?

[Void Angel]

No, Randalf, the problem is that clan tech is too overpowered (being better at everything it does, period) to facilitate fair combat. If you "enforce" Zelbrigen, then you end up with a series of one-sided duels. If you break it (and the Inner Sphere will have to do this in order to avoid getting smashed in that lopsided 1v1,) then you have the same problem, with the Adjective Animals running even MORE roughshod over the Inner Sphere. So no matter what, the Clan's unfair advantage in weaponry will carry the day for them. Hey, just like the Clan Invasion!

We're not here to LARP out the sometimes contrived storyline of the BattleTech universe. We're here to play a game set in that universe - meaning that story elements need to be preserved; strict game mechanics do not. In order for matches to remain competitive, Clan Tech must be implemented differently from tabletop. Even from a story point of view, it was the Inner Sphere's tactical and strategic flexibility that allowed them to achieve parity despite inferior tech - notably combined arms and large-scale army tactics. These factors allowed the Inner Sphere to attack the Adjective Animals in ways they weren't used to, and to use grand tactics and strategy to achieve local force superiority. Aside from restricting the indirect fire modules to Inner Sphere, there's no way to simulate this in the MWO format - if you start putting in asymmetric team strengths, it opens up a huge can of worms.

PGI is implementing Clan tech in a non-canon manner because they have to - and so they should.

[FupDup]

Kanatta Jing, on 06 December 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Like... Turning their LRMs into LBX shots?

Maybe, I dunno. Maybe they could just be like tracking-MRMs that they fly in a straight line towards their target (with shorter max range than IS LRMs by some amount). Something that doesn't let them hit targets behind cover. They'd use the same basic target mechanism for current LRMs, but they would leave the tube in a straight path instead of parabolic, and they would not try to curve around terrain.

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

If they completely redo how Lasers, PPCs, Missles and ACs work for the clans they might be able to keep the stock fits.

It would mean making the CL weapons worse per ton then IS weapons and then running pure tech. Then Clan would just be very agile mechs with new and unfamiliar weapons.

And you wouldn't know it was working right until you saw a petition to allow you to fit an IS AC-20 on a Timberwolf.

[MonkeyCheese]

Loving all these threads about clan mechs, because thats what we need right now many more months of balance

[Sweet Baby Pirate]

They should implement 'named' gear à la EVE first. For example, see http://www.sarna.net...um_laser#Models. The different models of medium laser would have slightly different stats, with the better ones being more expensive. Clan equipment could then fit in on the very high end of this scale.

[Chemie]

Artgathan, on 06 December 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Just go the way suggested by Randall Bills:

Give the Clans their killing power. Just make it short range and really hot.

Yes, because the original clans had better targeting computers so all clan weapons have LONGER range than IS we should just implement a system where they have shorter range. Great answer (and still would not do anything other than change the meta to 12 clan mech running a bum rush to brawl meta)