219 replies to this topic

[Kael Tropheus]

Absolute wrong direction, Paul. Clan tech should be every bit as powerful as lore says it should be. The counter point for clans should be honor based experience and equipment. No assist exp. If one person hits an enemy mech first, that enemy mech belongs to that player and only he will get exp for killing it. You can only clain one mech at a time. Plus the obvious 12vs10.

Also only clan or IS in the mech bay, make a new character for the other factions mechs.

Watering down 20 years of fluff so its easy on you is no excuse and is not what I signed on for as a Founder. Keep to the fluff.

Jumping the timeline to 3060 is an excellent idea. It gets around a lot of the lore problems. IS doesnt even start using salvaged Clan weapons for years after the invasion. A laser is a laser is NOT a laser when claan tech is involved. Its like take a coal powered steam engineer and handing them a modern day diesel electric engine.

Edited by Kael Tropheus, 04 December 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yep.

R&R just causes a "Rich get rich, poor get poorer" scenario. It was terrible.

All the newbies trying to run crappy standard frames and stuff because they couldn't handle the Endo repair bill, allowing those of us with great 'mechs to dominate them entirely.

R&R was a really bad failed experiment.

I still want a campaign game mode where between matches you don't get full resupply. So in a series of 3 to 5 matchs (which you commit your mech(s) to) you have to take and hold side points from the main objectives to get full ammo and repairs in the next mission. Failing to get full supply would impact you to the tune of a 15% loss in ammo per match, or perhaps only partial armor on destroyed hard points on the following match, or maybe a gimped engine that runs as several ratings lower, or slightly decreased heat sync efficiency. Lots of little things that could add up over the course of several matches. You don't get your rewards for any match until you complete the series, and if you bow out before complete your series your mechs get locked for being "in transit" for a while... of course pay some MC to get them back.. always need that money trap built in.

This takes repair and rearm out of the mechlab and puts it rightfully into the game play. It simulates the effects of repair and rearm in a fashion that equally impacts rich and poor players. Better yet, allow the players to pay for supply drop ships during the campaign, which much land and be defended while achieving or holding other objectives. It also helps balance ammo dependent weapons vs. energy, as ammo dependence is never a factor with a decent build in a single match.

There's ways to get RnR in the game without using the totally broken cbill mess that we had before.

Edited by Prezimonto, 04 December 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

Kael Tropheus, on 04 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Watering down 20 years of fluff so its easy on you is no excuse and is not what I signed on for as a Founder. Keep to the fluff.

Fluff says that Clans was honorable duelists who relied on skill and not cheap fighters that relied on superior range to safely pummel enemies from outside of their attack envelope.

[TygerLily]

I'm wondering if there will be all or some "anything goes" hardpoints for Clan mechs. I would also be okay with weapons that were somewhat stronger but with inherent limitations. For example, make it so ALL Clan mechs must run XL, don't have the option of lower heat regular PPCs or lasers and instead only have the option of ERs and Pulse's.

As far as the XL, I realize from tabletop they only occupied 2 slots and in that game 3 slots were needed to kill an engine but I think if they played by the same rules as IS XL engines for MWO, then that would also balance things out.

IE, Clan tech/mechs would pack more punch, be generally faster and occupy less slots but forced to be hotter and more fragile overall.

[Kael Tropheus]

Well Tyger I agree. All clan mechs must run XL engines, ferrofibrous armor, endosteel and double heatsinks. They wouldnt be caught dead using lesser equipment including generic lasers and ACs(pretty sure they all used Ultras or LBX autocannons and no normal ones). No opportunity to downgrade to the standard any of these. All slots should be omni slots except the rare instance of a set weapon, I know there is at least one in the first twelve omnis, cant remember what it is.

[Vesshar]

I wonder. Lemme just say somethin'. Now don't say "NO!", until I've finished, even if you really want too.
Bear with it, just untill you've read it all.

Alright, here goes:

Keeping in with lore, Clan Tech is superior than IS Tech. Even a newbie like me can see that, after reading the details. Storywise, this presents a certain challenge for the IS factions to deal with. Gameplaywise, this is a problem, as is clearly stated by many fans of the BT/MW universe in this topic.

Reading through all of ideas, as an outsider to the lore, I'd like to throw some ideas out here that might or might not help solve the problem.

1) Say for instance that you have a Clan Tech Autocannon and a IS Autocannon. The CT version is superior, so how does one go about making MW:O a balanced game, if everyone and their mother could just go out and buy all the new shiny better stuff?
- Could you make the CT version have a charge cost?

Let's say you use your CT gear. This particular CT gear has 3 charges. In a random match, it gets destroyed. When it gets destroyer, it loses a charge. When all 3 charges are lost, the CT gear is lost. So then, you have to get yourself a new one.

The up-side to having IS Tech, of course, is that it is always free to use when you have bought it for your Mech. Even, if the CT gear is slightly better, some might just stick to the IS Tech, if the scaling is right. The CT gear could just be a little bit better, but not game-changing as such.

Of course, it's not 100% lore consistent as far as I know, but it might benefit the game.

This could perhaps be linked to the fact that the Clans are invading, and might not exactly have the capabillity to frequently repair their Tech at every given oppotunity. For that mather, neither can the IS factions, if they use CT gear.

So. basicly: tl;dr

- Give the CT stuff a charge count.
- When charges are lost, CT gear is lost.
- CT gear is slightly better than standart IS Tech, but might have a higher cost to buy
- IS Tech is "free" (or as free as it is now anyway), but doesn't have a charge count. Can be used unlimitedly.
- If CT gear is lost, you can replace lost Tech with IS tech, provided you have the parts at hand.

So there.
What are your thoughts on this idea?

[pbiggz]

if clan tech is OP and puretech, mass exodus to clans, bad, if its OP and mixed tech, IS tech is totally obsolete, also bad.


Its going to be nerfed, you best come to terms with that, because you're in for a surprise if you think anything else.

[Kael Tropheus]

Problem is tech doesnt work between technlogies. Clan is lighter and far more advanced plus it simply plugs into modular ports on the chassis of clan mechs. IS tech is hard wired into the mech annd normally cannot be changed out without a major trip to the factory and months offline. PMI already screwed that up, maybe to the better, maybe not(depends on how much you like gunboats of whatever is the flavor of the month). Either way It took years before IS techs figured out how to adapt clan tech to IS chassis.

Pbiggs it would work fine if they enforced restrictions with exp and weight limits and numbers and such.

Edited by Kael Tropheus, 04 December 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Helmer, on 04 December 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I remember people saying the same thing when the Clans were introduced . There are always going to be those who prefer 3025, those who prefer the Clans, and a few nut jobs who like the Dark Ages (shudder).

Is each phase of Battletech disrespecting the other ones? Do you think they are intentionally disrespecting them? Do you think Paul is intentionally disrespecting the community ?

Personally, I think they're trying to make a game, thats fun. And seeing as how Paul and Randall Bills talked for hours after the Launch party about these changes , that Bills was onboard with, I'm looking forward to something new and different.


That all being said... I can respect your viewpoint.


Cheers.

When the clans were play tested, they used Star League era equipment. During the playtesting the clans it was shown that the clans could not get very far in their invasion with their ideology while using Star League era tech, thus the introduction of the clan tech.

With the quote about Bill and how he would redo the clan tech if he could for more robust, close range weapons, imho that would not fit the clan mentality unless there was another change to the use of physical combat cause for me, that would fit the mentality of close quarters, single combat.

The clans major advantage in PGI version of the game will be Clan XL engines (larger/faster and keep going with a torso down), Clan double heatsinks (2 crits, thus with avail slots, fit more CDHS, which will also raise PGI version of the overall heat cap, and the ability to use smaller, lighter weapons due have a longer reach then IS versions (5 CER Med laser vs 1 IS large laser).

The boardgame also had clanner pilots with better, default gunnery skills and targeting computers. By default all mechs have the targeting computers due to pinpoint accuracy, and none of us were bred to be tubby warriors .

It will be interesting in where PGI plans on balancing things. It could start with the /shudders, ghost heat, a limit on the number of heatsinks that can be equipped, etc.

Who knows, publicly?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 December 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[Malleus011]

The ultimate problem here isn't Clantech or IS tech.

The ultimate problem here is a developer who hasn't been able to deliver their base game, or balance its combat model, to the satisfaction of the player base. Until PGI gets CW and UI2.0 delivered and working, *and* address their chronic balance issues like Ghost Heat (which should not be retained as a permanent solution) they simply lack the experience and skill to add an entire second 'layer' of weapons and 'mech tech to the game.

The game is limping as she stands without key elements. Deliver Clans badly and you'll sink it. Better to delay them and build the rest of the game *right*, then launch the best possible Clan invasion you can. Later. When you can handle it.

PGI has already dug themselves a hole, and don't seem to realize how deep it is. Guys, and this is meant in the kindest, most supportive way possible - stop digging. Fix the game you've built so far and deliver CW and the new UI, and do it fast, because you don't have an infinite amount of time.

[Solis Obscuri]

Jak Darren, on 04 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Seriously, why is battlevalue a bad word to you? That has been balanced for YEARS.

How do you translate real-life player ability into PSR/GSR values to match the pilot modifiers for BV calculation?

How do you even try to compare the ELO scores of a group of players using limited amounts of LosTech to a group who is using 'mechs on an average 20kph faster, using guns that hit 50% harder at 200% longer range and weigh 15%-50% less typically, with free CASE and XL engines that don't pop with a side torso?

ClanTech isn't the only reason people like the Clans, and I can respect the people who are enjoy the "alien" culture, the remnant trappings of the SLDF, and the notions of meritocracy and honor code. But you can still have that without creating a massive game imbalance, and frankly I think re-balancing the gear is a good way to winnow out who really cares about the Clans and who just wants an EZ-Mode crutch.

[pbiggz]

Get used to it kids, you're not getting broken clan tech, you can kick and scream all you like it wont change anything. RANDAL BILLS agrees with me and he helped INVENT the clans!

Quote

MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?
RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.
Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

http://mwomercs.com/...2-randall-bills

[Hexenhammer]

Malleus011, on 04 December 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

The ultimate problem here isn't Clantech or IS tech.

The ultimate problem here is a developer who hasn't been able to deliver their base game, or balance its combat model, to the satisfaction of the player base. Until PGI gets CW and UI2.0 delivered and working, *and* address their chronic balance issues like Ghost Heat (which should not be retained as a permanent solution) they simply lack the experience and skill to add an entire second 'layer' of weapons and 'mech tech to the game.

The game is limping as she stands without key elements. Deliver Clans badly and you'll sink it. Better to delay them and build the rest of the game *right*, then launch the best possible Clan invasion you can. Later. When you can handle it.

PGI has already dug themselves a hole, and don't seem to realize how deep it is. Guys, and this is meant in the kindest, most supportive way possible - stop digging. Fix the game you've built so far and deliver CW and the new UI, and do it fast, because you don't have an infinite amount of time.

I was going to write a dissertation about what the game needs to do. Instead I'll leave this link here. http://www.gdcvault....e-Wrong-Way-Age

[MisterPlanetarian]

Omnimechs alone are a huge boon over the IS traditional battlemech. Clans will no doubt keep their weight savings and omnimech flexability, that alone is enough to give them a huge advantage. I'm expecting PGI to regulate clans with heat, damage and rate of fire etc.


And if you seriously think that bringing in clan tech as a copy paste from 3050 won't destroy the viability of IS tech then you really havent been paying attention.

[smokefield]

Quote

As put in another discussion, i want to post the idea here too because this is the suggestion forum and maybe someone from pgi will read (as opposed to the other topic that most probably will go unnoticed )

everyone is worried about clan mechs and the game balance so an idea came up - its about those damn hitboxes : Now we have some big hit boxes - CT, R/L T, head, arms, legs.

I propose that we keep this style for clan mechs - cause they are onmi mechs anyway so it makes sense...but for IS mechs we split these MAIN HITBOXES in smaller ones based on their internal structure. So - if a IS mech has 2 ballistic in the arm that arm hitbox will be split in 2 smaller hitboxes...each with its own hitpoint, but keep the MAIN HITBOX that incorporates both of the small ones - this is a discussion of how we divide the armour: I would say that 75% go to the MAIN hitbox and the rest to the secondary HB. The damage done by a hit should go straight to the main HB until the armout of that HB is stripped

So when the armour of that arm is stripped...instead of destroying directly the weapons..we will still have 2 HB ..each with its own hitpoint and weapon inside..so now each hit will transfer to one of those HB...making harder to destroy the weapons therefore the mech is more resilient in battle and can fight for longer.

IS mechs - dedicated weapon slots, hit-boxes splitted per slot (so more hitboxes, harder to kill in battle)
clan mechs - omni spots, hit-boxes as they are now (big as an entire mech part..easier to crit weapons, easier to kill the mech)

you take a clan mech you can put there more weapons but they can be destroyed much more easy than on IS mechs.

the idea can be improved but i think its interesting and can bring the balance everyone is worried about without nerfing too much the ckan mechs and their tech.

[Miken]

Clan not a problem, if IS may use clan tech as it was in other games.
Tell me please what difference between Clan mech and IS mech with same clan weapons, hs, engines,... ?
Beside IS have omni-mechs too. So why needs to nerf clans? I Don't understand.

P.S. Don't tell me about how bad will be IS weapons/tech when clan arrives. Just look at SHS and DHS today.

Edited by Miken, 04 December 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[Sephlock]

Hexenhammer, on 04 December 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Which is really damn funny because thats exactly what players are doing. I love my AC/2 AC/5 Battlemaster because I can lay down a steady stream of damage. Which is a sad thing really because the game PGI is giving us is at odds with the way we play it.

Koniving, on 04 December 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Yep. Victor says every build I put out there is awful because I run on DPS setups to spit in PGI's face about that. Btw, try an LB-10 and AC/5 combination on a mech that can haul an AC/20, you'll like it.

The AC/2 ghost heat thing just broke my spirit in that regard .

[Corvus Antaka]

i never heard of jumpsniping or the end-game meta we have in MWO in lore either.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Miken, on 04 December 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Clan not a problem, if IS may use clan tech as it was in other games.
Tell me please what difference between Clan mech and IS mech with same clan weapons, hs, engines,... ?
Beside IS have omni-mechs too. So why needs to nerf clans? I Don't understand.

P.S. Don't tell me about how bad will be IS weapons/tech when clan arrives. Just look at SHS and DHS today.

14t - AC20 vs 12t UAC20, which is better?

7t - ERPPC(10dmg) vs 6t - ERPPC(15dmg), which is better?

15t Gauss rifle vs 12t Gauss rifle, which is better?

Those are just some examples, clan weight savings are the real buff here make no mistake. Following TT values on damage, heat etc will only make it worse.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 04 December 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[Miken]

MisterPlanetarian, on 04 December 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

14t - AC20 vs 12t UAC20, which is better?

7t - ERPPC(10dmg) vs 6t - ERPPC(15dmg), which is better?

15t Gauss rifle vs 12t Gauss rifle, which is better?

Those are just some examples, clan weight savings are the real buff here make no mistake. Following TT values on damage, heat etc will only make it worse.

CLAN TECH ALWAYS BETTER! Don't you understand? What prevent you to use UAC20 instead AC20 on your Atlas?
Balance always was in price and repair/rearm cost which PGI decide to remove

Edited by Miken, 04 December 2013 - 11:18 PM.