219 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Miken, on 04 December 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

CLAN TECH ALWAYS BETTER! Don't you understand? What prevent you to use UAC20 instead AC20 on your Atlas?

From a balance standpoint, a game designer does not make content, and then release new content that makes the old content useless.

You do not make inner sphere weapons, and then release clan weapons rendering inner sphere weapons useless.

You can't justify clan tech as being OP, so please do not try.

I have seen nothing but the same half baked "numerical balance and pure tech" garbage arguments.

[Miken]

pbiggz, on 04 December 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

From a balance standpoint, a game designer does not make content, and then release new content that makes the old content useless.

You do not make inner sphere weapons, and then release clan weapons rendering inner sphere weapons useless.

You can't justify clan tech as being OP, so please do not try.

I have seen nothing but the same half baked "numerical balance and pure tech" garbage arguments.

But it's already happens with SHS when DHS appears. SHS became useless
You want rewrite balance for 30 years old universe? And who will play in this? One and half man? Community already continuously reducing.

Edited by Miken, 04 December 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[BUDFORCE]

Community request

Can this thread be started again in about 43 years time because at the rate PGI do things, this will be roughly when clan mechs are introduced.

[Kanatta Jing]

BUDFORCE, on 04 December 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Community request

Can this thread be started again in about 43 years time because at the rate PGI do things, this will be roughly when clan mechs are introduced.

I'm thinking 8 months, +4 months if they have to redesign every clan mech and it's varients to accept 'normal' weighted equipment.

Now is probably the reaching the end of the pen and paper stage and possibly the best time to talk about this topic.

[Jun Watarase]

Battle value has not been balanced. Which is why every competitive clan vs IS game in the tabletop (assuming 3/4 clan pilots, and 4/5 IS pilots) revolve around :

The clan player....

-Abusing clan pulse lasers as much as possible (large pulse lasers that have about the same range as IS ER PPCs!), as well as other overpowered weapons like clan LRMs (preferably mounted on mechs like the Bane)

-Walking backwards and forwards on the same 5 hexes to generate a +2 movement modifier

-Jumping with 7/11/7 mechs into heavy woods and slowly chipping the enemy down/boring the player to death, preferably with pulse lasers

-Running away repeatedly to snipe the enemy from out of his range

While the IS player has to :

-Bring lots of fast mechs, at least 5/8 or better.

-Zerg rush the clan player and kick him to death

[Diego Angelus]

I don't want clans yet (even if I'm clanner) because games is facing serious issues and adding more mechs to that already flawed system is just going to make that problem harder to fix. There are very big problems that should be easy to fix for experienced developers like them. But it should start with reworking ACs(and make them AC not rifles), heat system,mech sizes..Also when we talk lore then we can't have mechs run silly build that are impossible like mounting AC20 on any thing that has ballistic slot. Just think about BJ mounting AC20 in a freaking arm that doesn't sound right, how is that arm holding that big weapon? So that is another major issues to fix. Those are just some problems and there are other like not having lobbies and other major stuff that game should launch with. I don't want clans nor I care for CW because they should focus on most important things and I feel like they are spread doing bunch of things all at once and none of them is coming fast enough. I don't trust them to do anything right and adding clans so early is bad because they will focus on money grabbing
and make even bigger balancing issues.

[Karl Streiger]

Well at least I'm look forward to the MWO Clan Invasion - although I should know it better.
There is still enough room to make Clan Tech more advanced (heck - I think using the same values like IS-Technology in combination with Clan Weight and Crits is more as enough to have a serious advantage)

Jun Watarase, on 05 December 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

While the IS player has to :

-Bring lots of fast mechs, at least 5/8 or better.

-Zerg rush the clan player and kick him to death

Give him a grin:

use C3i on a high mobile unit - Preta Dominus 6/9/8
C3i on other chassis ~ 15 hex away -> Red Shift + awesome defensive modifer
starting 2 or 3 ONBoard Arrow IV Strikes.

However the difference between
3 ClanMechs and 4 IS Mechs is huge
between
2 binarys and 2 companys - its hardly existent

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 December 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Miken]

Diego Angelus, on 05 December 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Also when we talk lore then we can't have mechs run silly build that are impossible like mounting AC20 on any thing that has ballistic slot. Just think about BJ mounting AC20 in a freaking arm that doesn't sound right, how is that arm holding that big weapon? So that is another major issues to fix.

You are wrong. For example Urbanmech UM-R60L can fit AC20 in arm! By the way, it's default build from 2925! (http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3045.pdf) Why then other mechs should not fit?
Current hardpoint system works fine. IMHO. At least it is easy to explain. We have limited supply lines of ammo from different components of mechs and limited power units, due to chassis features.

Edited by Miken, 05 December 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Miken, on 05 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

You are wrong. For example Urbanmech UM-R60L can fit AC20 in arm! By the way, it's default build from 2925! (http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3045.pdf) Why then other mechs should not fit?
Current hardpoint system works fine. IMHO

Well the difference should be that there are Mechs that are supposed to have large cumbersom weapons.

Because TT is a pen&paper game of the 80's there are hardly any rules to reflect that.

Although I use House Rules: for my Hollander:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander

Its the same rule for Heavy Gauss or Prototype Gauss - firing the Gauss while moving causes a Pilot Skill Roll

For Mechs like the Kit Fox A:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kit_Fox
I have the house rule that the Gauss is more a kind of Hyper Assault Gauss -firing multiple small shells - using the missile table to consider how many shots will hit.

Those house rules should add more immersion. But at least TT don't need much more immersion - the sad part is that TT is more complex with much more micromanagement as MWO.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 December 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

Miken, on 05 December 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

You are wrong. For example Urbanmech UM-R60L can fit AC20 in arm! By the way, it's default build from 2925! (http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3045.pdf) Why then other mechs should not fit?
Current hardpoint system works fine. IMHO. At least it is easy to explain. We have limited supply lines of ammo from different components of mechs and limited power units, due to chassis features.

So you are saying its ok To do same on raven ? I want mechs to be more unique for example what is the point in using Hunchback when there is better medium without hunch ? We need something like size of hard points to make mechs be more unique like this we see same builds and many different mechs and all comes down to which one is better while other is unused.

[Psikez]

Paul turning his attention to anything is disappointing for us all

[Miken]

Diego Angelus, on 05 December 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

So you are saying its ok To do same on raven ? I want mechs to be more unique for example what is the point in using Hunchback when there is better medium without hunch ? We need something like size of hard points to make mechs be more unique like this we see same builds and many different mechs and all comes down to which one is better while other is unused.

Hunchback already unique, his balistic slot is right on cocpit level - and it's better for shoot from cover, and torso have more armor than arm

Edited by Miken, 05 December 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Miken, on 05 December 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Hunchback already unique, His balistic slot is above cocpit - and it's better for shoot from cover, So torso have more armor than arm

Same for the JaegerMech and Shadow Hawk (oh and the Dragon Flame)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 December 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[Miken]

Karl Streiger, on 05 December 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

Same for the JaegerMech and Shadow Hawk (oh and the Dragon Flame)

Not the same, Jagermech have slot in arms, and both have different tonnage. Soon we will be forced to limit our group tonnage.

[Hastur Azargo]

I think it's too early to panic. Let's consider that MWO has already implemented a number of systems that differ from TT and previous MW games, such as the dynamic heat limit (and the infamous Ghost Heat to compensate for it). It's natural that deviations are going to occur, and it's also understandable why PGI seeks to not invalidate all IS tech with clan release.

Also consider this. BV and huge difference in power between Clan and IS mechs takes into account stock IS mechs. A stock Catapult C1 with BV of 1399 costs 5 790 125 C-Bills. A stock Mad Cat with BV of 2737 costs a whopping 24 233 124 C-Bills. But let's take a sample build for our modern C1, real in MWO, and smurfy says that it would cost us 14 404 727 C-Bills, already not such a huge cost difference with the Mad Cat, also considering 10 ton weight difference, eh? Conceivably, our upgraded C1 would also fare better against purely implemented Clan mechs.

On another note, if I understand correctly, Omnimechs have a disadvantage of hard-set upgrades. This means Endo, FF, even engine size and type can't be changed. You want to run your Mad Cat with an STD engine? Nope, can't happen. It remains to be seen what advantage they're gonna give Omnimechs in return (fully customizable hardpoints?), but it appears to me that it's gonna be a quite short walk from what we have now to having balanced clan tech, probably mostly a matter of balancing weapons.

Anyway, it's too early to make conclusions, but I welcome the PGI's direction on this one, since I was not looking forward to rebuying an entire garage worth of mechs at nearly 4 times the prices, and that's exactly what PGI's Clantech balancing is aimed to achieve. Fingers crossed for now.

Edited by Azargo, 05 December 2013 - 03:02 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

Miken, on 05 December 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Hunchback already unique, his balistic slot is right on cocpit level - and it's better for shoot from cover, and torso have more armor than arm

Its unique for sure it has usless hunch that lets people disarm you moment they see you. When I tried out BJ I never looked back at hunch for ac20 use it has it in arm that is located right next to your cockpit and JJs just make it easy to use that ac at maximum efficiency.

[Miken]

Azargo, on 05 December 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

On another note, if I understand correctly, Omnimechs have a disadvantage of hard-set upgrades. This means Endo, FF, even engine size and type can't be changed. You want to run your Mad Cat with an STD engine? Nope, can't happen. It remains to be seen what advantage they're gonna give Omnimechs in return (fully customizable hardpoints?), but it appears to me that it's gonna be a quite short walk from what we have now to having balanced clan tech, probably mostly a matter of balancing weapons.

All mechs may be fully customized in factory. But only omni-mechs simply changes weapons on the field.

[Karl Streiger]

Azargo, on 05 December 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

On another note, if I understand correctly, Omnimechs have a disadvantage of hard-set upgrades. This means Endo, FF, even engine size and type can't be changed. You want to run your Mad Cat with an STD engine? Nope, can't happen. It remains to be seen what advantage they're gonna give Omnimechs in return (fully customizable hardpoints?), but it appears to me that it's gonna be a quite short walk from what we have now to having balanced clan tech, probably mostly a matter of balancing weapons.

Yes you did understand it correctly - moving crits of FF or ES or fixed Heatsinks (in case of Dire Wolf, War Hawk....) will turn a OmniMech into a BattleMech - also engine changes shouldn't be possible and in case of the Gargoyle - with 16 Engine Heatsinks - you can't reduce those engine heatsinks to 10 - and got 6 tons (you can do for an alternative OmniMech (but in this case - you won't get your free crit engine heat sinks.

Anyhow - it shouldn't be easy to replace a BattleMechs structure with Endosteel - or a Machine Gun with a Gauss.
You can replace a Large Pulse Laser with a LargeLaser with a ER-Large Laser or a SRM 2 with 1 of ammunition for a MLAS with 1 SHS.

But when you limit those stuff to OmniMechs - Wouldn't it mean to turn the IS Mechs into better OmniMechs - or at least the first thing most players would do - is to turn there MadCat Prime into a BattleMech - to have full ability for customization

Miken, on 05 December 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

All mechs may be fully customized in factory. But only omni-mechs simply changes weapons on the field.

THIS could be the only advantage for OmniMechs
Launch - wait for the map - look in what kind of lance you start and switch the loadout in the ready screen.(for example from a TimberWolf Prime into a TimberWolf D - for city fighting)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 December 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[Blackfoot]

Whats funny is you guys seem to think there will be clan mechs in the future.

It took em 2 years just to introduce a gamemode that does'nt have a base to cap. Supposedly CW has been "in development" for over a year now but there's not so much as a screenshot of the Inner Sphere. And the matchmaker is a Hodor that can't even properly match up IS mechs, let alone clan vs. IS. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

[GalaxyBluestar]

surprised nobody dropped this in. this and a 9-10 vs 12 might mean clanners don't get nerfed to what's the point level.

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 September 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

as we know the start of these problems was realised by the community when the stalker replaced the awesome. thus polls sprung up about reducing catapults and awesomes sizes and make the stalker bigger. this too is down to hitboxes as well. over time we've seen trebs kintaro's quickdraws awesomes etc suffer for hitboxes and scaling. remember pics like this?




we know that bigger size mechs suffer HEAVILY in combat along with their hitboxes... would this not be the perfect counter for CLAN TECH? balance the equipment with mechs that are proportoinally BIGGER than IS counterparts? lets see...


what a fearsome bunch but lets see what they look like against IS mechs...



OMG they're barns compared to some IS mechs, surely big overgrown bullet magnets will counter the tech. we've seen it work on kintaro's etc huge hitboxes don't compensate well for "superior firepower", being this easy to hit is a serious drawback. would it counter clan tech? well it would be best to implement it like this and if clanners are still op THEN we can nerf the equipement to balance.

just think enormus CT's so it's nigh impossible to hit ST's thus every shot is a core shot and IS torso twists would give them superior survival, it would negotiate the clan XL, speed advantages should be nerfed.

clan mechs should have lower pilot tree perks so they remain at "trial" mech levels even after mastery.

there are ways to do this without spoiling the tech factor.

oh wait... this is PGI... carry on to doom everyone.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 December 2013 - 03:34 AM.