172 replies to this topic

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Problem is the game needs to get more than just one target auience. I have played nearly every version of the BattleTech Universe. There is no more problem with dying to a Arty strike as there is to a Sniper putting a round in our cockpit. Result is still the same. If players of a combat game have a problem with how they die, they should not play combat games. Only way I'd see a problem is if it happens every game with just one Arty shell every time. That is broken... or really really sucky luck!

I totally agree with this game needing more then one target audience. The game requires "being fun" to keep players though. Winning through random rolls is seldomly fun.

A lot of tabletop players will think now "I won so many games rolling dice and it was so much fun..:". That is not what I mean. When you roll something that is not supposed to work like "hitting that gaussrifle with a target number of 11". What made it fun was "making a choice and that worked out". You know it was unlikely that gauss would hit. You tried it anyway and it worked out.

MWO right now is "making a choice" as in "picking your mech" then you press launch and wait:

- Some matches your placed in a position you can play from without an enemy placed near you that will just kill you whatever you do.
- Some matches your placed in a position that whatever you do, your dead 85 seconds after the game starts, no matter what you do.
- Some matches you play amazing (over 800 damage, more then 3 kills, UAV discovery XP, saviour kills) and you lose because half your team was assaults getting killed with less then 100 damge dealt.
- Some matches you play amazing (over 800 damage, more then 3 kills, UAV discovery XP, saviour kills) and you win because there is 3 others on your team who have pretty similar stats.
- Some matches you play crappy and lose.
- Some matches you play crappy and win because your team pulled it off.

From my experience after PGI released 12vs12 more then 60% of the PuG games you play, the outcome is totally unrelated to your input.

If you analyze my screenshots made of the after action report, there is more of a relation between the way the matchmaker constructed the game, then there is to (my) player performance.

The new spawn points are amplifying that problem a lot. The fact that artillery strikes deal so much damage and quite often randomly kills a guy in the target area, amplyfies that problem a lot.

I agree with you that artillery damage is not "game breaking" and that people can have a justified different opinion on wether 40 damage is enough or not. Its not even the core problem this game has at the moment, I agree on that too.

It just does not make the game more "tactical" or "thinking mans shooter" in my book, while less damage would do that, IMHO.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 06 December 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Almond Brown]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

stuff

no army just sends in its units from random locations, and there is no counter to arty/ airstrikes.
more stuff

Tell that to the Airborne troops that invaded Normandy...

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 05 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

What you call "abuse" I call "team play" and "coordination".

Agreed, and at a cost to said Team of 960,000 C-Bills (full 12 x 2 use). Not steep enough...? really...?

[Joseph Mallan]

I haven't had but two nights on the new locations so I haven't seen a problem yet. It's only been 8 hours and I'm learning how to Medium.

I don't worry about the win if I am PUGging. I cannot control that. I can give 700 damage 4 Kills and 7 Assists, but the team still lose. I ha a kick ash game and I can go back to bay happy.

The thinking come from when to drop that 40. Is the enemy grouped up (Saw a friend drop a strike and had 2 kills 10 assists at the end!!!), or to scare off a Capper or hit a bottle neck, thinking mans game does not mean it isn't painful. I have been gaming for over 30 years, I am not ratted easily, and I don't see an issue with Arty so far. Now if we could thow 6 at once... I might start to grumble.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I haven't had but two nights on the new locations so I haven't seen a problem yet. It's only been 8 hours and I'm learning how to Medium.

I don't worry about the win if I am PUGging. I cannot control that. I can give 700 damage 4 Kills and 7 Assists, but the team still lose. I ha a kick ash game and I can go back to bay happy.

The thinking come from when to drop that 40. Is the enemy grouped up (Saw a friend drop a strike and had 2 kills 10 assists at the end!!!), or to scare off a Capper or hit a bottle neck, thinking mans game does not mean it isn't painful. I have been gaming for over 30 years, I am not ratted easily, and I don't see an issue with Arty so far. Now if we could thow 6 at once... I might start to grumble.

I will try to get multiple guys to FRAPS our next ISW fight. (http://www.innerspherewars.eu for those that do not know the league.) You will see the smoke go off every 12 seconds or whatever the cooldown is once the first strike is loaded.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I will try to get multiple guys to FRAPS our next ISW fight. (http://www.innerspherewars.eu for those that do not know the league.) You will see the smoke go off every 12 seconds or whatever the cooldown is once the first strike is loaded.

If you see me... Bring the rain!

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

If you see me... Bring the rain!

To add some perspective to this Arty discussion, or dimension as it were. Here is ONE sector on River City, players will recognize where it is. The circle represent the ARTY strike area.



The enemy is not nuking the whole MAP. Stay mobile or behind cover, same as one would do to prevent other types of attack from getting at you if you suspect the enemy has Arty.

[Sean von Steinike]

I like air/artillery strikes. Helps prevent the blobbing balls of mechs. The new spawn points are interesting but, I think perhaps, too close to enemy start points.

[Kjudoon]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I haven't fired a single arty shell nor called of air support, I got pummeled by Arty once. After that I learned that colored smoke is bad and I keep an eye out for it.

So if a new player can't learn to look for smoke, he deserves to walk away from the game.

I wonder if you ever faced a 12 man meta that does this where they have 1-2 dozen strikes and drop them every 30 seconds? The point is that an area attack with 400+ points of potential damage costing less than 1 ton of streak ammo is off. Some of those guys spend a lot to drop smoke where you cant see it and have gotten very good at it. kudos to their practice.

This is playing to the flaws in the game. The same reason assault spiders exist...ed and why they need yo be made more like locusts. effective but easy to kill when attacking multiple heavy mechs instead of racking up multi kill jackpots.

2 possible solutions to smooth out the value and end Artillerywarrior Online is to extend the time between arty strikes or increase the cost of an arty strike 3-5 times. If all mech systems are meticulously balanced by cost/damage/weight/heat, so do these modules.

...being stuck with "Mech of Doody" spawn points is bad enough.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 06 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I wonder if you ever faced a 12 man meta that does this where they have 1-2 dozen strikes and drop them every 30 seconds? The point is that an area attack with 400+ points of potential damage costing less than 1 ton of streak ammo is off. Some of those guys spend a lot to drop smoke where you cant see it and have gotten very good at it. kudos to their practice.

This is playing to the flaws in the game. The same reason assault spiders exist...ed and why they need yo be made more like locusts. effective but easy to kill when attacking multiple heavy mechs instead of racking up multi kill jackpots.

2 possible solutions to smooth out the value and end Artillerywarrior Online is to extend the time between arty strikes or increase the cost of an arty strike 3-5 times. If all mech systems are meticulously balanced by cost/damage/weight/heat, so do these modules.

...being stuck with "Mech of Doody" spawn points is bad enough.

I'd like to see it in action. hen I' let you know if it felt like arty actually falling on my head.

[Mystere]

Kjudoon, on 06 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Some of those guys spend a lot to drop smoke where you cant see it and have gotten very good at it. kudos to their practice.

Then why should their effectiveness be nerfed or even eliminated?

Kjudoon, on 06 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

This is playing to the flaws in the game.

I respectfully disagree. You say "flaw", I say "feature".

Kjudoon, on 06 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

The same reason assault spiders exist...ed

It is only in the past tense because I am still mastering my Phoenix Mechs.But once I'm done ... I hope you get my drift.

Kjudoon, on 06 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

2 possible solutions to smooth out the value and end Artillerywarrior Online is to extend the time between arty strikes or increase the cost of an arty strike 3-5 times.

I'd rather that TAG be required instead as someone suggested either here or on another forum. At least that makes using artillery or air strikes another equipment decision. On the other hand, making the price too costly -- or someone's really ridiculous suggestion of making the cooldown 2 minutes -- is just another attempt at nerfing something to oblivion.

If you haven't noticed, we are where we are right now partly because of all these cries for nerfs by people unable to deal with an existing mechanic. Rather than catering to these crybabies, the devs could have spent the time doing other things.

Edited by Mystere, 06 December 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Adaption to flawed or bad gamemechanics does not make a good/healthy game...

[Mystere]

Thorqemada, on 06 December 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Adaption to flawed or bad gamemechanics does not make a good/healthy game...

Whether a game mechanic is flawed/bad is subject to opinion and not based on fact. As such, I disagree with you on this particular issue.

[3rdworld]

Mystere, on 06 December 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Then why should their effectiveness be nerfed or even eliminated?

Because it is too effective. It is a module capable of killing any mech in the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 06 December 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Because it is too effective. It is a module capable of killing any mech in the game.

Get rid of weapons to then. They cost nothing and can kill any Mech in the game.

[MadcatX]

Mystere, on 06 December 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Whether a game mechanic is flawed/bad is subject to opinion and not based on fact. As such, I disagree with you on this particular issue.

Same

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Get rid of weapons to then. They cost nothing and can kill any Mech in the game.

If you ignore weight / crits / and opportunity costs sure.

[Mystere]

3rdworld, on 06 December 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Because it is too effective. It is a module capable of killing any mech in the game.

They became effective -- too effective you say -- because of teamwork. Should we nerf teamwork then?

Edited by Mystere, 06 December 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[3rdworld]

Mystere, on 06 December 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

They became effective -- too effective you say -- because of teamwork. Should we nerf teamwork then?

No, they became too effective when you nerf competing modules, and buff their damage to the point they can leg a highlander in a single strike or headshot any mech in the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 06 December 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

No, they became too effective when you nerf competing modules, and buff their damage to the point they can leg a highlander in a single strike or headshot any mech in the game.

And yet I have been killed by arty once. even though I see it at least 3 times a game for two weeks. Yet M Victor Head capped a Mech almost every game.