172 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

AgroAntirrhopus, on 05 December 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

In the rounds I played yesterday, the spread out spawn points (at least in PUGS) totally negated the blob or die mentality. Each time, we had lance on lance combat instead of lance on entire team combat. IT was really refreshing.

I played over three dozen games last night (I needed 12 'wins') and sometimes it was lance on lance, but usually (60%+) I found one lance would be to far ahead of the others and the enemy was fast enough (Using Dragons, Cents, Shadowhawks, and Victors) to clubber a single lance early unless that to close lance instantly tried to run toward the other two lances on their team. However at times this close lance has a mech like a Atlas in it and the faster enemy mechs swarm and destroy it.

It also had a tendancy on certain maps (frozen city being the most common) to create three sided crossfires for one team that hamper the ability of the other to engage them. For instance I was on Frozen City during one game last night in my Jenner D (I'm currently mastering them and Victors) and I was far forward so I decide to scout the city area near what would be theta on a non Assault map mode. Well as soon as I entered that area I had three lances of enemy mechs firing on me and an entire lance of enemy lights followed me as I tried to retreat. I died horribly as I couldn't evade an entire lance worth of lights on my own and my lance was no help. My lance was a medium (I think a Shadowhawk), a Jager, and a Atlas. The Atlas was overrun by the lights I brought back and the Shadowhawk and the jager had run back toward or cap where the other two lances were. But a minute in we were down two already because we were much to close to the other team and way to far from backup.

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 05 December 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

While your journey to military history is nice....it is not the point in Storytellers story...

The only aspect of the OP I am commenting on is his and others' dislike of artillery and air strikes and their call to have it removed. That is all.

Having said that, how would you (i.e. everyone who dislikes the "randomness") exactly like to model artillery in relation to CEP (Circular Error Probable)?

Besides, I find it quite funny that people are complaining about tactics people use in MWO that actually mimic what happened throughout the history of warfare. And what I wrote was just a very small sample. I haven't even touched on the tactics used during the era of Roman decline up to the Crimean War.

Karl Streiger, on 05 December 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

For a game that should "simulate" military combat in the 31st Century ... the numbers of informations that are unknown is bad.

Then the solution is really simple but possibly hard to achieve: Ask PGI to publish the "math" behind things.

Edited by Mystere, 05 December 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Blurry, on 05 December 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

ok lets have seperate q's then please

all you wonderful fantastic superior uber leet players can have your premade q's

and us lowly loners can have our own fun in solo q.

sound fair.
Nope because you leet people need to stomp the unsuspecting otherwise it just isnt fun - otherwise we would have a separate q.

In case you have not noticed, it is the 12-man "wonderful fantastic superior uber leet" players you mentioned that are complaining about air and artillery strikes, not lowly PUGs like you and me.

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 05 December 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

A fair artillery strike would use - proximity fuse and detonate 30m above ground and scatter cluster ammunition equally above the terrain. - an not RNG mechanic

If you haven't done so already, kindly read up about CEP and other related topics. Then, please show us how you want artillery modeled in the game.

[NRP]

So . . . another thinly veiled QQ thread about artillery and air strikes. Yeah.

[Mystere]

Trauglodyte, on 05 December 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

I think the problem with the spawn points is more that people continue to think "go straight ahead". So, if you're on the flanks, everyone immediately pushes up only to find themselves either out quicked or out numbered and out quicked. Nobody thinks to fall back and consolidate their forces. It is like the new spawn points made the Leeroy Jenkins types even worse with their need to charge into the fray out numbered and out gunned. As a friend of mine told me back in my soccer playing days, "Going forward isn't always the best move. Use the entirety of the field."

It's funny you mentioned that. I PUG exclusively and a number of teams I have been in actually discussed about regrouping at the start of the match.

As such, I must be in Elo heaven!

Edited by Mystere, 05 December 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[N0MAD]

For those of you quoting war in history, pls dont quote situations in the past that suits your argument and ignors the fact that those tactics were made obsolete by progression.
There are a couple of points that make your arguments mute, well actually there are many points, but the simple ones.
Airstrikes have counters, one is opposing airpower, 2 AA fire, we have none.
Arti, if you look at modern history and the way arty has been used, you will find arty is a softening tool used prior to the battle being joined, for very obvious reasons. Arty is also very prone to be made in effective due to the risk of opposing airstrikes, apart from the fact that its inaccurate and in reality took many salvoes and spotters to home it in on target.
But still lets not get into such debate.
The main flaws i see with the way Spawn points are implemented and the use of Arti/airstike in this game atm.
Randon spawns for an army are just silly, no army just sends in its units from random locations, and there is no counter to arty/ airstrikes.
Apart from the most outstanding problem,, postage stamp sized battlefields.
If you want to look at war and history where units similar to what we have to play with (armor aka mechs, airpower and Arty) look at the battle of Kursk. Look at the size of the battlefield, not a battlefield the size of my backyard.
So much for the thinking mans battle sim huh..

[Nryrony]

For my taste the arty is a bit used too much atm. In 12s i would simply limit it to roughly 3 "shots" no matter if its arty or an airstrike. For PUGs its a bit tougher since its "just" a module. In addition to it, I think they deal a bit too much dmg, especially if you consider the head-shot capability.

The new spawn points still feel a bit awkward, not sure what to make of it. How ever I dislike that you spawn with random mechs (and different tonnages) at different locations.
If for example 2 lights 1 assault and 1 fast medium spawn at the same location the assault mech might find himself alone. Unable to join the others and in a very bad position.

[Mystere]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

For those of you quoting war in history, pls dont quote situations in the past that suits your argument and ignors the fact that those tactics were made obsolete by progression.

Go easy on me. I was just describing antiquity. There is still a whole lot of material to cover until 3050. That's three thousand and fifty years of warfare still left to cover.

Besides, my point is that the tactics people are using in MWO are nothing new. As for counters to artillery, my original set of Mark 1 eyeballs, coupled with haragei, seem to be doing just fine, thank you.

And with regard to Kursk, obviously the size of the battlefield demands a different set of tactics, especially if you expect it to be covered by only 3 lances.

Edited by Mystere, 05 December 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Kjudoon]

solution for arty strikes: x5 to price

problem solved.

use it and it takes 1-5 missions to rebuild the cost. hope the win was worth it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 05 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[pbiggz]

I for one like the new spawn points, they've successfully ensured that we will now use otherwise mostly ignored parts of the map, even the lameness that was river city is now kind of fun. If brawls are not your thing that's your problem, not PGI's.

Additionally Arty strikes are easy to dodge, do you see red smoke? move away, profit. I personally dont use them in pug matches and it doesn't make any difference. More combat options are a good thing anyway, and you guys are just the same bums who will be liable to get made about P2W WALLHACK NERFED CLANWEAPONS PGI IS SO INCOMPITENT GALL!

And if you don't know, this is what you bums sound like:

[Kjudoon]

Mystere, on 05 December 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

In case you have not noticed, it is the 12-man "wonderful fantastic superior uber leet" players you mentioned that are complaining about air and artillery strikes, not lowly PUGs like you and me.

because the 3 module mechs often have them on all 12 mechs so 12v12 becomes arty/air strike duels. pugs dont drop 7=12 a game each side.

[akpavker]

slimenator, on 04 December 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

You are not playing 12premade matches? Right?!

That would explain your Opinion.

you like to assume things?right?!

typical arrogant german....

that would explain your opinion

[Kjudoon]

pbiggz, on 05 December 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I for one like the new spawn points, they've successfully ensured that we will now use otherwise mostly ignored parts of the map, even the lameness that was river city is now kind of fun. If brawls are not your thing that's your problem, not PGI's.

Additionally Arty strikes are easy to dodge, do you see red smoke? move away, profit. I personally dont use them in pug matches and it doesn't make any difference. More combat options are a good thing anyway, and you guys are just the same bums who will be liable to get made about P2W WALLHACK NERFED CLANWEAPONS PGI IS SO INCOMPITENT GALL!

And if you don't know, this is what you bums sound like:

PGI creating "Mech of Doody" will be their problem when people quit wanting to pay for a bad game.

[N0MAD]

Kjudoon, on 05 December 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

solution for arty strikes: x5 to price

problem solved.

use it and it takes 1-5 missions to rebuild the cost. hope the win was worth it.

The problem that seems most obvious with that is that for the vet that has countless millions stored away or plays 8+ hours a day, that poses no problem, but the newer or casual player has a real dissadvantage.

[Mystere]

Kjudoon, on 05 December 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

because the 3 module mechs often have them on all 12 mechs so 12v12 becomes arty/air strike duels. pugs dont drop 7=12 a game each side.

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." - Sun Tzu

[N0MAD]

Mystere, on 05 December 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Go easy on me. I was just describing antiquity. There is still a whole lot of material to cover until 3050. That's three thousand and fifty years of warfare still left to cover.

Besides, my point is that the tactics people are using in MWO are nothing new. As for counters to artillery, my original set of Mark 1 eyeballs, coupled with haragei, seem to be doing just fine, thank you.

And with regard to Kursk, obviously the size of the battlefield demands a different set of tactics, especially if you expect it to be covered by only 3 lances.

Wasnt directly aimed at you bro, you make some very valid points.
Really point im trying to make is, unless the Devs make much ( and i mean much) larger maps, tactical play isnt really possible, it will always be an Arena match game.

[Kjudoon]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

The problem that seems most obvious with that is that for the vet that has countless millions stored away or plays 8+ hours a day, that poses no problem, but the newer or casual player has a real dissadvantage.

it will really hurt over time those teams who use em like they're gonna outlaw em tomorrow. it solves the problem over time.

[PropagandaWar]

New spawn points change the game up. I like it arty. Meh I think i've been hit twice by them. What bugs me is not feeling damage.

[N0MAD]

Time is on the vets side mate, he is here for the long haul, the newer casual player who cannot respond, will soon tire of the steel rain and look for greener pasture. New player retention has to be considered i think, pricing them out of certain features i think wont help.