52 replies to this topic

[Picone]

Thoughts on modules? I only have the improved gyros on at the moment but there's two more slots..

Actually the more I play this build the more I think the one thing I'm really missing is mobility. So I upgraded to the S350, which seems about the most efficient engine in terms of speed per ton and four inbuilt heatsinks (and since they work at 2x instead of the bizarre 1.4x, I'm actually more heat efficient now than ever). Unfortunately it was at the expense of all the SRMs, I just couldn't work out any other way to do it. Initially dropped from 3xSRM6 to 2xSRM4 then 2xSSRM2 and now 1xSSRM2 (I ended up wanting the extra ton for more UAC5 ammo). Armour's back up to about 608 now too.

Short range: 1xAC5, 1xUAC5, 2xLLAS
Long range: 2xLLAS
and the streaks for those pesky lights

Edited by Picone, 07 December 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Victor Morson]

The best modules right now are in fact consumables.

Coolant 9 by 9: A great one to have for quick rapid cool downs.
UAV: Great for ranking 'mechs with huge XP bonuses if you drop them near the enemy's main force, and can crack ECM bubbles/provide LRM targeting.
Airstrike/Artillery Strike: Both exceptionally useful, the airstrike hits in a line (you can hit the peak of a hill and nail both sides of it), where artillery comes down in a radius AOE. Both are equally good, so it just comes to getting used to them.

As a side note do not buy the accuracy upgrade for the strikes. It makes them worse and ties up a module slot.

....

Now that said, if you're mostly interested in consumables to make money right now (since all of the above cost 40,000 cbills per use) I will say that Adv. Seismic Sensor is still useful (you must be holding still to see movement) and that Adv. Missile Decay is handy if you get into LRMs; Adv. Zoom is nice (you might dig that) for sniping, etc.

The improved gyros IMO aren't too worthwhile, but they do at least not cost anything to run and could be quite helpful to someone starting out, so they should serve you in the meantime.

Long story short?

Consumables: Coolant, Airstrike, Artillery Strike, UAV - Upgraded Versions Only - No Accuracy upgrade for Strikes!
Non-Consumables: Adv. Seismic Sensor is still useful, Adv. Missile Decay is good for LRMs, Adv. Zoom is decent for sniping
Honorable Mention: Capture Accelerator might see a comeback and lots of people like Adv. Info Gathering, but I personally cannot endorse the latter.

[Koniving]

Picone, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

I'm making small changes and trialling them a bit at a time. So far I've dropped the SRM6s to SRM4s, which gave me the extra tonnage to swap my AC20 for an AC5 and UAC5 as Koniving suggested. (Victor also suggested 2xUAC5 but I think I like the combination).

There's good merits to both. Twin UAC/5s can yield better results within a 6 second engagement as some far more math obsessive people than myself have found, but after that the results are about the same as the jams kick in and essentially negate the advantages. Also with the UAC/5 + AC/5 combination there's enough room to throw in an extra DHS if it's needed.

Picone, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Dropping the SRMs down to 4s also freed up a bit of space so now I have the 14 slots required to go either endosteel or ferro fibrous. I figure the endosteel is probably better as it will free up 5T allowing me to upgrade my engine to ~S325 but I'm curious about the "12% more protection per ton" offered by the armour. Help?

Ferro in terms of lore is actually a downgrade, an older form of armor that while lighter consumed a lot of tangible space that could be used for other things such as ammunition storage, heatsinks, etc. The other lore-ish details were ~not~ included in MWO otherwise it'd be a recommendable thing to use. On your Atlas however there is not enough room to be bothered with it. It is "12% more armor per ton," not "12% more armor can be applied to your mech." So you cannot exceed the maximum armor.

Picone, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

As Victor and a couple of the others suggested, I have still been thinking about swapping the LLAS to PPCs but after a few more games I think I still prefer the LLAS for the flexibility - It's not as good long range as the PPCs but still good and it means I can use them in close quarters if I need a bit of extra burn or for shots of opportunity on shutdown / still mechs, or if I lose the autocannons

That is actually the smartest thing I read. Yes PPCs are good for ranged engagements but in addition to being hotter if you miss you have wasted every bit of heat you just cost yourself. To make matters worse, PPCs + SRMs means NO Defense against lights unless you're a crack shot which I gotta tell you from using a 90 kph stock Commando 1D early this morning. People suck at aiming PPCs. As in god-awful. If someone's about to fire a PPC I slow down, and their shot goes in front of me without hitting. Or I stay still and speed up (it may be stock but it is mastered, I just rebought it for fun) and watch them waste their shot and overheat for easy pickings.

Lasers do have a good use. They are not optimum, but they are important and tangible. My only gripe about LLs is that they take longer to fire than any other non-Gauss direct-fire weapon. But because of that, they run amazingly cool. I have an Atlas that runs exclusively on LLs and does quite well.

There is another route but this one is only tangible if you have comrades to escort you. Remove the energy weapons altogether and instead make your mech very heat efficient. (This vid was recorded back during repair and rearm and thus for an Atlas to use any upgrades was to drown in more debt than can possibly be earned even with the Founder's 25% bonus, hence the very slow nature of both myself and my opponent). Back then it was easy to do. Now you need escorts due to faster enemies. Between myself and my opponent you can see the reasoning behind the build decision.

Picone, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

The SRMs.. Still not sure what to do about them. I thought 3xSRM6s with artemis would be ******* deadly but it was a fail. I'll give the SRM4s a chance first, but thinking I might still drop them to streaks or get rid of them altogether in favour of a bigger engine (or PPCs if I go down that road).

If you chain-fired them they would be deadlier. In mass-fire SRMs are actually losing the ability to function. Too many impacts with the possibility of hitting between the 0.1 millisecond server time. Essentially the server's calculations can pick up approximately 100 frames per second. Anything between those frames doesn't exist. Between the geometry of the target's hitboxes, speeds, twisting, etc., the more you fire at once the more likely you will have detection failure. This unfortunately is also why PGI opted ~not~ to have lore-based ACs of mass bullet spammery and one of the supposed reasons for the AC/2 punishment.

That said, I personally like SRM-4s for the better heat and reduced spread. SRM-2s would be even more accurate; like bullets, but too weak to be worth while when Streaks do 0.5 more damage per missile and almost never miss.

Alternatively there is the LRM route as well. If you soften your enemies before you get into the brawl would it not make sense that they would die that much faster?

(For your entertainment, some brawling fun pre-armlock.)

[Victor Morson]

Picone, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Dropping the SRMs down to 4s also freed up a bit of space so now I have the 14 slots required to go either endosteel or ferro fibrous. I figure the endosteel is probably better as it will free up 5T allowing me to upgrade my engine to ~S325 but I'm curious about the "12% more protection per ton" offered by the armour. Help?

Just to be clear it means that it is 12% lighter. It does not offer 12% more protection to your armor. 60 points is still 60 points, for example, it's just less weight to get there.

There are some builds that Ferro & Endo can stack with, in particular in the heavies and mediums. But Endo should always be taken first with Ferro being an extra benefit. Most of these builds are standard engine, as a side note.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 06 December 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Ferro-fibrous is about 20% as useful as Endo... short version... don't use it on anything but Lights and some Mediums... EVER!!!

Victor Morson, on 06 December 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Actually that's not entirely true. With Endo + Ferro, there's quite a few 'mechs that can take advantage of it.

I agree with both points here. Generally lights especially need it and some mediums can benefit (Blackjack and Cicada both come to mind). However, some heavier mechs do benefit from going this route to keep a standard engine. An assault however, even in my craziest builds, has never benefited from Ferro since repair and rearm was removed. (With R&R, Ferro was about 5 to 10 times cheaper to repair than endo which sort of made up for its otherwise low-use.)

[xMEPHISTOx]

Note to OP.
I would advise nothing less than std 340 and preferably the max std 360 engine in Atlas's. You do not lose much in load out but you gain so much in maneuverability ie. torso twisting and the like not to mention 60+ kph speed.
Atlas DDC w/350 (62kph) can hold 2 LL, 1 AC20 and 3 SRM 4 artemis or 2 SRM 6 artemis and endo steel frame. < my current ddc build.
I have a RS w/a std 360 engine that will go 64 kph and has 4 ML, 1 AC20 and 2 SRM6 w/artemis and endo steel frame. Very fast for an Atlas and maneuvers nicely.

Note _ rarely play these builds as SRM's are nigh useless in the games current state, but keep these builds on the ready for the day they are once again viable. But nonetheless when I do on occasion play them they can be very effective even with the SRM issues.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 07 December 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Yeah, there's very few assaults at present that you want to Ferro+Endo on. I believe you can fit that on the AC20 2 ER PPC Highlander, however, so I wouldn't say there aren't exceptions even then.

[Mercer Skye]

Not there is really anything to add, but as far as engines go, since it was mentioned, I highly recommend the 340 STD. 350 would get you an extra heat sink, but that's an awful lot of weight, and not much extra maneuverability for just one more heatsink. Once you get past 325, and YMMV, you start seeing some pretty big gaps between engines worth running.

I'm also a fan of twin UAC-5s for brawling. Cover or not, your opponent is trying to do the best they can to not get hit, and if they succeed while you're running the 20...well, that's an awful lot of damage you're just not getting. Twinc UAC can put out the same amount of damage, and then some, in the time it takes a 20 to recycle, with the added insurance that at least something is landing on target. But, as mentioned, it's a gamble, and I'm not going to parrot the other combos that compete.

In regards to armoring arms, I'd just have to agree to disagree with some of the aforementioned points on putting full points on them. I've been able to get my arm blown off instead of my torso more often than not. Sure, maybe not enough to actually justify full points on the arm, but the times I notice, I really notice it. Legs....yeah, i'm just a dummy that can't stand shaving that extra armor off.

And just to spam you with another build; DDC-Electronic Nightmare. Now, the armor isn't adjusted, as everyone has their preferences there, but I actually move an awful lot of it up front (Rears are 20 sides, 30 CT). MPlas's are bad, and I should feel bad for running them, I'm sure, but imo, are better for shaving lights off of you than any other laser. With 15 heatsinks, you can pretty much swap to just the pair, and stand on the firing trigger while engaged with a light, and not overheat on any but the hottest zones.

Streaks, just because they're more reliable than srms, and because I spent money on a BAP, darn it. But not only that, it allows you to 'surge' your counter ecm. With the faster lock, you can drop your bubble, disrupt their's, pick up lock, fire, and re-engage your bubble before most boats can have missiles on you. (And it makes you feel all skill-pro when it works).

IF nothing else though, my biggest suggestion for actual brawling is lower damage, higher dps. Brawling is getting up in something's face and only one of you is walking away. Leave the bigger guns to snipers and fire support. You need damage on point and on target.

That given, regarding modules, my other bit of advice is Zoom, Target Info, and a Seismic, fourth slot your choice (Arty and Air are great given ECM is pretty decent at hiding you, and keeping them from seeing it if you drop it behind things).

Zoom for those pilots that like to overheat, pop in, get the accuracy boost, slam their weak stuff, unzoom. Info....is iffy, some people hate it, some love it. I obviously love it. Lots of brawls end much quicker because I know I don't need to waste any time trying to get a missile lock, Lay into that left torso with the 5's before they notice...profit. Seismic; You are in what may not be the most devastating, but one of the most 'omfg, kill it now' 'mechs on the battlefield. Any pilot worth their c-bills is going to try and engage you from behind, and stay back there as much as possible. Seismic gives you enough forewarning that you might just get that alpha into your arms or a nuked ST or just anywhere rather than that precious soft CT back armor (Anecdotal, I'm sure, but I swear the stuff is made of silk and Elmer's glue).

My thoughts on the matter, I just hope some of it is useful.

[Autobot9000]

Victor Morson, on 06 December 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

That's not a terrible DDC (do you have Endo & Artemis and such configured on it?), but you might want to give something like this a try:
Ultra DDC

In order to turn his ok-ish DDC into something terrible that indeed would be a fantastic way.

[Victor Morson]

Autobot9000, on 07 December 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

In order to turn his ok-ish DDC into something terrible that indeed would be a fantastic way.

It is a flat out upgrade with missiles in their current state, man. SRMs are terrible for hit detection and the only place you can somewhat get away with them is on fast 'mechs that let you get real close.

Ultras/PPCs are brutal.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 December 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Picone]

At least he's trying to help instead of just ******** on people's builds without explanation.

Thanks guys for clarifying how the ferrous armour works, that description is really terribly written.

Koniving, that atlas vs atlas vid, were you playing against a ******? Even during the rare periods when he wasn't shut down, he was still standing still most of the time and except for a couple of shots where he forced you to round a corner to get to him it didn't look like any of his lasers even landed on target.

Mercer, I know what you mean about the "I spent money on X, darnit!" - I'd already paid the mil to get artemis on the DDC thinking I was running SRM6s, its even more disappointing stripping the SRMs off for streak which doesn't use my bloody artemis. However, I'm leaving it on there, partially because it would cost me more to take it back off and there's no advantage in doing so but also so if they ever unfuck SRMs, its easy for me to just swap my loadout back over.

Victor, what do you not like about the gyros?

I only really play PUG because for some reason when I installed teamspeak, MWO started crashing (and stopped crashing when I uninstalled it), so I'll probably give the consumables a miss for now. The build never seems to overheat so I don't really need the coolants. The airstrikes/UAV... I haven't really seen it in play too much to have any idea how it works let alone how well. Also very expensive if its 40K cbills per match to keep topping it up, thats what ~40% of cbill income?

I like the idea of the seismic sensor to get those coming up behind me but at the same time, you need to be still for it to work but staying still = death. I think I'll whack the advanced zoom on, its already unlocked and might help my LLAS in long range.

[Victor Morson]

Picone, on 07 December 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Mercer, I know what you mean about the "I spent money on X, darnit!" - I'd already paid the mil to get artemis on the DDC thinking I was running SRM6s, its even more disappointing stripping the SRMs off for streak which doesn't use my bloody artemis.

Fear not, your cash was not spent in vein. The Streaks gain a huge advantage from Artemis - it's just an undocumented one. Since they share lock time with LRMs, the Artemis makes the Streaks lock around 20% quicker. Again this is undocumented (and might change then they break up the Artemis launchers in the future) but for now, it's a totally worthwhile investment.

Picone, on 07 December 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Victor, what do you not like about the gyros?

Most of the shake that occurs in the cockpit is just visual; it doesn't actually impact your aim. Most shake can be "ignored" if you are calm not to overreact to it, so that with practice, the gyro module really becomes unnecessary. It's kind of a neat luxury item and probably not terrible for just starting out, but eventually you'll want that slot for more powerful stuff.

Picone, on 07 December 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I only really play PUG because for some reason when I installed teamspeak, MWO started crashing (and stopped crashing when I uninstalled it), so I'll probably give the consumables a miss for now. The build never seems to overheat so I don't really need the coolants. The airstrikes/UAV... I haven't really seen it in play too much to have any idea how it works let alone how well. Also very expensive if its 40K cbills per match to keep topping it up, thats what ~40% of cbill income?

The UAV is the most recommendable one for pugging. The reason being is that when you pop it, you get an XP bonus for every 'mech it detects + a bonus for everyone that LRM assists. As a result, it makes your "money back" in XP rewards - it's great for ranking up new 'mechs.

The airstrikes and artillery I'd give a pass if pugging is your interest as well. They're expensive to operate and don't grant you a big side reward like the UAV.

Picone, on 07 December 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I like the idea of the seismic sensor to get those coming up behind me but at the same time, you need to be still for it to work but staying still = death. I think I'll whack the advanced zoom on, its already unlocked and might help my LLAS in long range.

It's primarily for parking on one side of a hill and trying to determine if you have other hostiles on the other side of it - i.e. the dropship on Frozen City, where you get people grouped up on both sides. Seismic gives you some warning to that; likewise you can park up there in the corner and tell if people are coming through the tunnel with it.

It is FAR less useful than it was previously but as far as good modules to pug with, it's actually still a good choice.

[scJazz]

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Yeah, there's very few assaults at present that you want to Ferro+Endo on. I believe you can fit that on the AC20 2 ER PPC Highlander, however, so I wouldn't say there aren't exceptions even then.

There are always exceptions Which is why what I stated is a rule

Never use FF except on lights and some mediums!

There that is easier to remember than the ten thousand edge cases where it works well on other mechs

[warp103]

wow I am seeing alot of ddc with builds that are very high in alpha number but low heat eff.

I went with something a bit different. The keep it simple build.

2 LL 2 LBX10
that it for weapons lol
15 DHS and a 330

it a simple medium damage high heat eff... This mech is good that I can be on any map and fire a non stop. I can hit you hard at for full damage up 900m. And the closer you get, the more open you can I crit your weapons with a smile. With the 330 I can more fast for a fatlas
Mech' Matches Played Wins Losses Ratio Kills Deaths Ratio Damage Done XP Earned Time Played ATLAS AS7-D-DC 467 243 222 1.09 502 243 2.07 162,923 297,877 2 days 00:28:56

This are my numbers lol. And you have to think the first 50+ were before skills were elite and 100 before master.

So if started after that my KTD would be around 3.3

Edited by warp103, 07 December 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Victor Morson]

warp103, on 07 December 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

wow I am seeing alot of ddc with builds that are very high in alpha number but low heat eff.

While I dislike the LBX, there are better platforms for this very setup than the Atlas, if you enjoy this weapons combination. You could run the same thing on a Cataphract and be much better off.

Also you cannot hit at full damage at 900. All of your weapons are having major falloff at that point, even ER Large.

[Victor Morson]

scJazz, on 07 December 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

There that is easier to remember than the ten thousand edge cases where it works well on other mechs

You know, I think I'd agreed with this until I started looking through my garage and realized that about 50% of my 'mechs have endo+ferro.

I think it really comes down to "Does your build have a few big guns? Does it have unused arms?" If the answer is yes to both, and you run a standard engine, good chance you can squeeze in Ferro.

[Bront]

I run the 3xSRM6 (no artemis, didn't feel like it helped much) builds for my DDC, and when SRM damage works, that's usually my killer brawler app and not the AC20. When it doesnt... well... yeah.

I need to drop to the 3 SRM4s instead and give that a try. I've tried 3 SSRMs, but found their usage was limiting at times, as ECM screwed them up, and they required a lock, where as the SRMs I could fire at any old mech, which was nice in a brawl. I'm sure I can figure out a way to use those extra few tons.

[Koniving]

Picone, on 07 December 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Koniving, that atlas vs atlas vid, were you playing against a ******? Even during the rare periods when he wasn't shut down, he was still standing still most of the time and except for a couple of shots where he forced you to round a corner to get to him it didn't look like any of his lasers even landed on target.

Standard heatsink user. It was too expensive to carry DHS back then (it was a huge chunk of the bill), and with laser based weapons he was waiting for his heat to cool enough to use his weapons. Back then if you went to 101% heat, you died instantly and had chances of shutting down before 100% if you didn't have the pilot skill "Heat Containment" in its old form. Back then heat mattered and terrified players. At best his threshold was between 40 and 60 (the prior being the trial mech minimum and the latter being the current 10 DHS amount if you have elite skills unlocked, though he would have 1x cooling per heatsink in addition to the threshold unlike our DHS rigs). It is also possible he was new-ish. There was no skill based matching, only "assault for assault, medium for medium" style matching. I also had 99% armor on all front torsos. Each rear had 1 point of armor. I, too, had SHS. Too expensive otherwise and ammo was giving out 60 to 80% free reloads (one of the dumbest moves made by PGI).

Also there was no arm lock back then, so a lot of the quick death tricks of today weren't around.

Truth be told back then I was awful with Atlases too, as they weren't really my thing. I had bad experiences during the original single armor, everyone is slower than 60 kph, and the Atlas's entire skull was the head hitbox combined with being drop-kicked by Catapults. My early Atlas experiences were among the worst.

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Bront, on 08 December 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

I run the 3xSRM6 (no artemis, didn't feel like it helped much) builds for my DDC, and when SRM damage works, that's usually my killer brawler app and not the AC20. When it doesnt... well... yeah.

I need to drop to the 3 SRM4s instead and give that a try. I've tried 3 SSRMs, but found their usage was limiting at times, as ECM screwed them up, and they required a lock, where as the SRMs I could fire at any old mech, which was nice in a brawl. I'm sure I can figure out a way to use those extra few tons.

Indeed you should, try the srm4's over the 6's. The 4's do seem to be a tighter spread (I have no vid/img/data evidence of this) especially with more range and frees up more tonnage for bigger engine or whatever else you may find to use it for. Streaks on an Atlas...bah...wasted tonnage on an Atlas IMO, an Atlas should be a in your face beating machine, ofc w/srm's as they are that role is difficult to fulfill.

[warp103]

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

While I dislike the LBX, there are better platforms for this very setup than the Atlas, if you enjoy this weapons combination. You could run the same thing on a Cataphract and be much better off.

Also you cannot hit at full damage at 900. All of your weapons are having major falloff at that point, even ER Large.

Sorry but cataphract can not hold the heat eff as the atlas can with the same weapons
Hmm the lbx has the same damage to 900 . I know the book says it does not but real life the damage is the same from 0 to 900{damage all the way till 1650} and the erll are do not go to zero damage till 1350m that a full 450m before zero.
So if I was facing a cataphract with the same build I would eat his lunch if he could find me. Why, he would overheat ,2 i would have more armor, i have about the same speed, I can fire a little better over some hills

This build is just simple and effective. I can use on any map caustic,hell(therma). does not matter I am not going to over heat.
I know some like the max bang. that all well and good till that heat spikes. I love owning noobs and think that oh 4 weapons till I get call cheater this lame that lol.
I have a quad ac5 that I love. when I meet a guy that tries that on me lol, they most of the time lose.
So you might be right it may not be the mech but the pilot of the mech