95 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

YueFei, on 07 December 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Percentage based is NOT radius-based. Which is what I was talking about when you objected in the first place.

And how do you divide X, Y, and Z areas based on percentage? In the Commando example, if the left torso is 1 meter away, the leg is 3 meters away, and the CT and Head are 2 meters away.... what do? Arbitrarily decide that the left arm takes 50% damage just because it's at 0 meters? Then figure that the left torso should take 25%, just because....? And then give the CT 10%, the head 10%, and the left leg 5%? How do you plug distance from blast radius into that equation? Whatever numbers you come up with will be arbitrary, and inconsistent across different chassis.

And what the hell do you gain with such complexity? It doesn't add to the gameplay meaningfully. Just make it a damage transfer mechanic and be done with it!

Dude, are you seriously this dense or just a troll? There's nothing arbitrary about it. It's simple math based on how much area of each location was hit by the blast. If you can't figure it out from what I already typed, I don't have the time to explain it in small enough words for you.

And no, aniviron, SRMs don't work that way. If they did, there wouldn't have been a problem, since they never would have done more than the stated damage each, because the damage would be capped. As it was, the 2.5 damage SRMs were doing much, much more than 2.5 damage each. It's been a while and my memory is a little fuzzy, but I believe that in some cases they were doing as much as 3-4 times that. Maybe it's how they were supposed to work, but not how they did work, which is why SRM splash was reduced in size so as to make it effectively non-existent.

[BlackDrakon]

This is when they were the King, look at the flight path. Now its all broken




This was exactly a year ago...

Edited by BlackDrakon, 08 December 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Pwnocchio]

ratgoat, on 06 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

It's all tied in with the hit detection issues that have plagued this game from day one. I have no doubt if they had a fix they would be rolling it out asap.

...the PGI needs to up their damn game.

[Pwnocchio]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 December 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Even if hit detection were fixed SRMs spread too much to be effective compared to pin point damage.

Everyone weapon can't be the AC/20.

Every weapon, however, should work as intended.

[Pwnocchio]

Blurry, on 06 December 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

They are fixed - it is everything else that is broken
but UI 2.0 will make it all better

PGI acknowledged that hit detection was broken for SRM's. They've never announced that they've fixed them. Had they spent the time to fix them do you really think they wouldn't tell us about it?

[Pwnocchio]

YueFei, on 06 December 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The problem with splash damage is that it was radius-based, so on smaller mech models it was massively unfair, the overlapping splash spheres were completely wrecking them. ...

This may be true but it doesn't excuse PGI's failure. They chose their current implementation. They know it fails. They still haven't fixed it.

This isn't closed or even open beta anymore. They have an entire classification of weapons systems that simply don't work, the game is months past launch, and they look extremely unprofessional as a result.

[Deathlike]

Pwnocchio, on 08 December 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

This isn't closed or even open beta anymore. They have an entire classification of weapons systems that simply don't work, the game is months past launch, and they look extremely unprofessional as a result.

Flamers and NARC said:

Why hello there...

Edited by Deathlike, 08 December 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[LORD TSARKON]

Sad that I had to take off my 3x6RMs+Artemis on my Atlas and instead put a AC/2(in addition with the AC/20) because of how PGI hates SRMs....

This game hinders from lack of Medium Mechs because of this also... just like the BlackDragon OP stated....

[Noesis]

Please, please, please, please, please, Father Inouymass can you motivate the elves a little more?

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

ROFL

your asking PGI to fix something

1. you havent been heard or listened too not by PGI anyway
2. i hope your young cos it wont happen this millennium

they have pushed back UI2 until next Feb (probably meaqns we wont see that either)

You have community warfare already

in the forums against the dev's

[DemonRaziel]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 09 December 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

You have community warfare already

in the forums against the dev's

That one is actually kind of dying off, at the moment. Or on hiatus, if you will. They really ought to come up with some new major intercourse-up soon, because it seems most of us have simply given up on the 3rd person view, absence of an actual metagame and inability to decently balance stuff for ages... and even the low effectiveness of SRMs (already slightly mitigated by increased damage) is only marginally important for many of the posters.

When it comes to SRMs, what they really need to do is fix the hit detection and (maybe) no damage buff will be required. If they know that hit-reg issues are here to stay for some time, then they ought to come up with alternative solutions, like improved flight speed, flight patter, or increased damage.

'cus I seem to vaguely remember some sort of launch, that hinted at an end of BETA, so it would be nice to actually have all the weapons viable at this point.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

From what I remember the devs said that the problem was not a simple one. Some players have done testing and found that the worst problems are tied up with the number of missiles involved. It also gets worse if there are more mechs involved. It could be that the servers are incapable of dealing with the load, on top of code problems.
If this is the case then I'm not sure what would do as a "band aid". Testing by them wouldn't help as there wouldn't be the load.

[Rhent]

SRM's will be fixed sometime between never and when the rights to the Battletech Franchise for 3D Sims are transferred to a responsible game development studio.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Might try reducing the number of missiles being tracked by grouping them up. Not sure what else could be tried to improve hit reg.

[YueFei]

OneEyed Jack, on 08 December 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Dude, are you seriously this dense or just a troll? There's nothing arbitrary about it. It's simple math based on how much area of each location was hit by the blast. If you can't figure it out from what I already typed, I don't have the time to explain it in small enough words for you.

And no, aniviron, SRMs don't work that way. If they did, there wouldn't have been a problem, since they never would have done more than the stated damage each, because the damage would be capped. As it was, the 2.5 damage SRMs were doing much, much more than 2.5 damage each. It's been a while and my memory is a little fuzzy, but I believe that in some cases they were doing as much as 3-4 times that. Maybe it's how they were supposed to work, but not how they did work, which is why SRM splash was reduced in size so as to make it effectively non-existent.

And nothing would be gained by the needless complexity you are proposing. If you think it's such simple math, write the equations down here and prove it. Or, concede.

Because I guarantee whatever you could come up with, a damage transfer mechanism would be 10 times simpler and achieve the same thing. Stop thinking in terms of real world physics and think like an engineer. Hell, if you were animating the mechs, would you have the game engine simulating all the kinematics behind the shifting of weight and balance? Or would you simplify it and make it look convincing?

Stop taking hammers to everything, not every problem is a nail.

Hell, you realize that the very idea you're proposing is probably the same idea some naive young developer at PGI had to implement SRMs the way they did originally, which is what caused the problem with SRM splash damage murdering light mechs in the first place, right? If they had done it my way, they could've implemented it easier, faster, and had it bug-free.

Edited by YueFei, 10 December 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Um... I'm not a mathematician, but percentages aren't exactly complex math.

Take the total area hit, in whatever measurement is used.

Divide by 100.

Multiply that by the area of each location that was used to calculate the total.

Multiply by 0.02 (based on 2.0 damage per missile)

Viola! Splash damage based on burst radius (which is already part of the Cryengine code), that applies all of the appropriate damage and never more.


Oooooohhhh... complex!



And with that, I'm done responding to your inane rambling.

[Fooooo]

BlackDrakon, on 07 December 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

There is no splash damage anymore though, so why even bother going there?

No splash damage, and ghost heat are here now, so, why not fixing them?

Technically there is but isnt.

They dropped the splash dmg or radius for missiles (or just srms im not sure) to 0 or 0.01 or something. At least thats what I remember reading from paul in an old command chair post.

So the actual mechanic is still there, just being passed useless numbers to basically skip it......

They could try and fix it up and then up the splash dmg for srms a little and see what happens but still, with how hit reg is with them atm its probably not worth it yet.

Edited by Fooooo, 10 December 2013 - 02:31 AM.

[Kmieciu]

YueFei, on 06 December 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The problem with splash damage is that it was radius-based, so on smaller mech models it was massively unfair, the overlapping splash spheres were completely wrecking them. Instead of using radius-based splash damage, they should just do a damage-transfer mechanic to adjacent locations. If an SRM hits CT, it can also transfer "splash" damage to the LT and RT. If it hits LT, it can transfer some damage to Left Arm and CT. If it strikes an arm, it transfers to the corresponding side torso. If it strikes a leg, it can transfer damage to the corresponding side torso. And if it hits the head, it can transfer some damage to the CT.

We already have one damage transfer mechanic, we don't need another one. Each missile should apply damage to a single hitbox, because they have armor-piercing warheads. Did you know a person can fire the AT4 anti-tank missile at a target just 15 meters away? That's because anti-armor missiles don't fragment , thus have small blast radius.

In game terms, that would mean that SRM would have the same potential damage against every mech size, but it would be easier to hit a large mech. Therefore a light or medium mech would become more effective against a larger mech. And that is precisely what this game needs: more lights and mediums.

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 December 2013 - 03:16 AM.

[Bagheera]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 December 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Even if hit detection were fixed SRMs spread too much to be effective compared to pin point damage.

True in a lot of cases, but broken SRMs are one of the many things hurting a fair number of mediums. I know you remember what a good SRM volley in a decently fast mech did the the back end of slower opponents.

Still, they've been a problem forever, and it's hard to finalize weapon balance when some of the are still broken. Fixing SRMs should really be higher on the priority list.

[ciller]

SRM's have been broken for what, 8 to 9 months now? No one really uses them any more except the few rare builds/mechs that can't really get away with it (like a brawling Atlas). Mechs that are entirely reliant on SRM damage are basically non-existent, like the CN9-A/D and various others.

Doesn't matter what the reason for them being broken is, simply put until SRMs are more potent this game will be 98% fire support. Currently the only weapons being used are the UAC5, AC5, AC20, PPC, ERLL, ML, SSRM, with the occasional LRMs thrown in - pretty much all of which is long range damage except the ultra efficient in weight medium laser.

There should be some sort of benefit for bringing short range weapons. Especially slow flight path, dmg spreading, no splash damage, lack of hit detection SRMs where you have to wade through a kilometer of long range weaponry coming at you. That benefit should be extra damage.