22 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

The new spawn location system has completely broken the game for organized matches and this is why:

12 Mans: The new spawn locations are really bad here. You cannot organize lances before dropping so when we do launch we have to pick a point on the map to regroup to get lances organized. Some spawns are now unbalanced as well especially because you have to move to regroup to get lances organized. A perfect example of this is tourmaline where Alpha lance actually drops with relatively little cover and has to either sit still in the cover provided at the spawn location or move in the open where they will inevitably get hit for free damage. The spawns are also closer so it removes some of the element of surprise since there are only a few places each lance can get to before engagement. A simple solution to this would be to completely remove this mechanic from the 12 man queue. If this is a mechanic that "needs to be in the game" leave it out until lances can be arranged preferably with choice of more drop zones than just the 3 provided, that way there is still some element of surprise and strategy.

4 man PUG groups: Alpha lance is almost automatically always a 4man group, it is now impossible to run a lighter group for 4 mans because it is in a position where it almost always has to engage with the other Alpha lance on the other team. If alpha lance fails to engage the opposing alpha lance it leads to nasty consequences from flanking. A solution to this would be to introduce tonnage matching for each lance, I only really have experience with dropping into Alpha lance since I never solo drop.

[SmokinDave73]

Agreed that PGI did not take in to account 12 man drops.

[Corvus Antaka]

the big problem is you just learn the spawns and know where the enemy is.

This would have been a great idea IF there was 12 random spawn points for each team. always the same is not so good.

[Uncleclint]

Randomly changing spawn points is one of the best ideas in 2013. I can only hope that some of the "powers that be" is going to read about this and realize that this would actually make MWO a more entertaining game over a longer period of time.

[Asmosis]

Alpine assault matches are no longer a long treck to eps location and slugging it out at 1km. Its actually an interesting map to play on now.

[ShinVector]

Asmosis, on 08 December 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Alpine assault matches are no longer a long treck to eps location and slugging it out at 1km. Its actually an interesting map to play on now.

I almost agree but disagree with you here... Alpine Conquest is a far more interesting map to play now !
Have you seen how close the 3 cap points are to each other now ?
Much less about capping and far more fierce combat focused now..

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eaks&m=conquest

[Thorqemada]

Alpine Conquest is horrible and does nothing but promote more Blobbing and Assaulting instead of objective based gameplay at Lance Level.

Edited by Thorqemada, 08 December 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Serapth]

Just got dropped on the enemy's lap in Mordor in an assault with 3 light pugs.

... from now on, until PGI fixes their stupid @$#$ing game, I may just start DCing when this **** happens.


Really have to wonder if anyone there is actually thinking before making these changes. I really wish we could pause our premium time while PGI go down these ... um.... brainfart moments.

[ShinVector]

Thorqemada, on 08 December 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Alpine Conquest is horrible and does nothing but promote more Blobbing and Assaulting instead of objective based gameplay at Lance Level.

Well for the longest time.. People had be complaining about capwarrior and standing in a box... (I wasn't one of those though... )
This is the result...

And I see they are not done yet... I notice Smurfy had pull information about Team Death Match maps already.... Which is just assault without cap points... Hurray for 'those' people...
I play this game a lot less nowadays....

[Wildstreak]

They need to split the Pre-Match period into:
Screen 1 - X amount of time to organize Lances / Company or just when everyone hits Ready.
Screen 2 - 10 to 15 second period where you drop on the map like now.

I have not run in premades lately but I did notice one game where a 4 man Davion group got split between 2 Lances while PUGing, I know this because one of them took Command and put all 4 in the same lance but they were already assigned spots on the map in 2 different locations.

[Grey Black]

Agreed that there needs to be a pre-match lobby to let people figure out spawn points, disagree that they are "broken". I find them a welcome change of pace to the previous "Everyone spawns clumped up and moves to the center for a shootout" spawn points.

Also: 4 mans don't need more fat. Just more skill.

[Elder Thorn]

Serapth, on 08 December 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

brainfart moments.

golden, this moment however seems to be lasting since launch of open beta. I don't have premium time running at all because of it

About the topic: For PUGs this seems ok, some people still need to adapt - and yes, you might end up with no chance, no matter how well you and your lance adapts, this needs to be adressed.
For 12-mans: yeah, i guess it sucks - badly.

[1Sascha]

Don't like the new spawnpoints either ... and here's why:

1. It's nothing new, really. They just changed the spawns around, but everyone will still spawn in the exact same locations. Meaning: Instead of repairing/improving the old car, PGI have simply thrown a new coat of paint on it.

2. Why anyone would think splitting and physically separating the entire group into three lances is a good idea is beyond me. Isn't this game supposed to be about teamwork? With built-in comms being as bad as they are, now you can't even "indirectly" communicate with the rest of the team (meaning: through your own movement/actions), since they probably won't see you.

3. The bigger maps have been effectively reduced in size. With the old system, you'd pretty much use almost all the real estate on the maps, marching from your own cap towards a defensible position of your choice. The new points eliminate the need for this "march into position", hence they give us less tactical freedom. Tourmaline is a prime example for this. You'd march towards the space hoop, then either engage/hold the enemy in the center or flank around them to the left or right. With the new points, you'll pretty much start *at* the space hoop, with at least one enemy lance almost within LRM-range.

What all this results in on a lot of maps is (IMO): Instead of one big 12v12-battle now you'll get three separate 4v4 battles.

It also means that you'll be able to spot and shoot stuff almost instantly. Just the other day on Tourmaline I got my first kill 90 seconds in (in a Battlemaster). Talk about catering to the low-attention-span/impatience-crowd. They might as well throw us onto a flat, featureless map with the enemy team spawning 500 meters away and dead ahead. "There you go.. now you can instantly shoot enemy Mechs.. great new feature, isn't it?"

What this game needs is *more* opportunities for tactical gameplay, not less. If you're gonna mess with the spawnpoints, why not try and revamp the whole system? In a perfect world, spawning should go like this:

Before the match even starts, a designated team-leader or the lance leaders should be able to freely pick spawn points for different lances within a predefined spawn-area. Kinda like what you'd do in Combat Mission during the deployment-/setup-phase.

But that would of course mean that we'd need some sort of lobby system, better comms within the game, a pre-match ready-screen with all sorts of tactical info and tools, etc. Never-mind then.. just run towards the enemy and shoot the first stompy robot you see ...


S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 09 December 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

An update to this thread. I played a night of conquest and had a lot of fun. Alpine now is more interesting with the way caps are spaced. They aren't so close together that holding caps isn't important yet aren't too far away. The spread spawn system allows quicker capping of outlying caps. Other maps are fairly similar. Assault mode is just utterly awful.

[DasProjektil]

With no way to influence the setup of your lance prior to spawning, this is just annoying in 12v12.
Please change it back for 12v12 or give us a way to change our lances prior to spawning.

In public games it is about the same as before.
Only Alpine conquest is special, because the map is basically reduced to half its former size. Which may or may not be a improvement.

[Gorgo7]

Well, change seems to be the issue here. None of you like it apparently. I find the game much more fluid than it used to be especially in capture mode. On the bigger boards (and some smaller like river city) the split lances makes for interesting team dynamics in Assault mode, esp with new locations for capture points as well as spawn points. Can't change the lances?!? Too bad. Use the team speak that you already have working for you to compensate.
Honestly...

[The Great Unwashed]

The role of light mechs in recon or harassing is much reduced with these new spawn points; I find my Raven increasingly more shot up by large groups of mechs early on in the game and less people show up in lights for me to chase. The number of conquest games actually won on conquest appears to go down as well; both game modes have turned into assault. I've rarely had so many games end so quickly and decisively for one team. Getting in a kill-steal is now actually requiring skill for my ECM-mech of wee fire power

The early surprise of new spawn points has receded by now; I liked it the first day but now I'm more or less used to it. Randomized drop points would be a good idea so that recon, scouting and positioning become once more important.

(I agree that Alpine Peaks seems to be an exception)

(Also, the above is not fact but my skewed, biased observation)

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 10 December 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Bront]

In theory, a lot of the spawn problems will go away once you can reorganize your lance pre-drop. Sadly, that's a "UI 2.0 will save us" thing, so who knows when that's coming.

I like the new spawn points for the most part, though I think having one lance way the heck out from the other lances doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're randomizing them somewhat (then it's just some level of inaccuracy in the drop).

Edited by Bront, 10 December 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[1Sascha]

Quote

Well, change seems to be the issue here. None of you like it apparently.

I don't mind change - if it's an actual improvement. Which the new spawnpoints aren't on a lot of maps.

Tourmaline and Alpine suffer the most IMO. On the former, the new system spawns you in at around 1000 meters from the enemy. Meaning that tactical gameplay is a thing of the past on this map. It usually is just an insta-brawl and a matter of luck if you come out on top. If your team decides to wander off all over the place and two lances on the enemy team happen to hook up, (or if you happen to have all lights/meds in your lance and the enemy lance spawning opposite you have heavies/assaults) you're screwed and the match is pretty much lost.

But even on other maps it seems that the new system discourages careful positioning/defensive gameplay - something which usually worked very well if you had a couple of smart/patient players on your side. Instead it encourages rushing in force. Been seeing a lot of those on River City for example. The usual behavior of mindlessly running off spawn without even bothering to check what the enemy are up to or where they are going is being punished even harsher now.

I guess I am repeating myself here, but: This seems to have been done to cater even more to the impatience/short-attention-span-crowd who just want to shoot stuff right at mission start. Kinda like "What can we do to draw more players into the game? People have low attention-spans and don't want to wait for anything. I know: Let's put enemy spawns as close to friendly ones as we can. This way, there'll be insta-pew-pew for everyone and matches will be even shorter than before".

The thing that really gets me is this:
What was so broken about the old spawnpoints that they needed to be "fixed"? Teamwork was hard to come by before, and now it's even less encouraged by the way your team is split up, scattered across the map and instantly put into LRM-range of the enemy.
In that way, it's sort of like the addition of that silly ready-button: Nobody asked for it, it has no use and it actually makes the game worse.

And before someone says that this had to be done to break the "monotony" of matches always going the same way: That's a general problem with games such as this. Games that have a very limited number of relatively small maps with fixed spawns and goals. Of course people will know the maps by heart after a while and will know where to hold or flank the enemy. Anyone who's ever played Counter Strike or TF2 will tell you that this is inevitable. And changing the spawns around only means that people will have to re-learn some of the maps and then the same pattern of matches always going in a similar manner will return.

Quote

In theory, a lot of the spawn problems will go away once you can reorganize your lance pre-drop. Sadly, that's a "UI 2.0 will save us" thing, so who knows when that's coming.

Yeah.. just like the ready-button will be totally useful in the future ... for some reason. Thing is: We're talking about the game as it is *now*. Not how it might be in a couple of months/years. Developers' promises of what a game will be like should be taken with a huge grain (more like a bucket) of salt anyway. Anyone remember those articles on MWONL from, err, 2012, where the devs promised the game would be a Mech-Sim and not an FPS with stompy robots? ... Right.



S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 11 December 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[Uncleclint]

The "monotony" of matches will unfortunately return sooner or later, once everyone got used to the new spawn locations. Much more interesting would be if each side had a certain set of let´s say 6-10 different spawn locations or maybe a set of spawn patterns (like set#1 blue team - north, red team south; set#2 blue team - southeast, red team - northwest; and so on) that would be randomly chosen for every new game. Now that might really add enough variety and entertainment over a longer term.

I like the new spawns so far, except for alpine conquest - looked like one sides lance had to face at least 2 enemy lances not far from the start all the time, but maybe I haven´t played it enough to be absolutely sure.