32 replies to this topic

[D04S02B04]

I refer to this video for what Power Creep means.

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

With the Saber Package coming in and uncertainty of tonnage limitations (as well as the resistance by some parts of the community)... I think it is likely that tonnage limitations will not come in any time soon although I will be very happy if it does.

ASsuming so, what will be the point of running any other Mech that has similar hardpoints as that of the saber package?

The primary advantages of a the Wolverine and Griffin are its JJs which are lighter and generate less heat, have advantageous hardpoint placements on the arm and are one class lighter "freeing up" slots for heavier mechs.

I currently use a Shadowhawk-5M XL300 2x PPC 1x SRM4, 1x SRM2. However with the Griffin-1S, I can load my PPC along with MLs for backup instead of using SRMs giving me more tonnage for more heatsinks!

EDIT: Removed WVR-6K, realised it did not have JJs.

If the mechs come out slim and hard to hit, they may even replace the Centurion!

Edited by D04S02B04, 06 December 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[New Day]

D04S02B04, on 06 December 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

I refer to this video for what Power Creep means.

http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

With the Saber Package coming in and uncertainty of tonnage limitations (as well as the resistance by some parts of the community)... I think it is likely that tonnage limitations will not come in any time soon although I will be very happy if it does.

ASsuming so, what will be the point of running any other Mech that has similar hardpoints as that of the saber package?

The primary advantages of a the Wolverine and Griffin are its JJs which are lighter and generate less heat, have advantageous hardpoint placements on the arm and are one class lighter "freeing up" slots for heavier mechs.

I currently use a Shadowhawk-5M XL300 2x PPC 1x SRM4, 1x SRM2. However with the Griffin-1S, I can load my PPC along with MLs for backup instead of using SRMs giving me more tonnage for more heatsinks!

EDIT: Removed WVR-6K, realised it did not have JJs.

If the mechs come out slim and hard to hit, they may even replace the Centurion!

No, No you're wrong. Powercreep is a good thing. So good that all of the Clans should completely overpower the IS variants and make them and years of work obsolete.

[Thorqemada]

With weightlimits i expect the lighter Mechs of a weightclass and Jenners become the Mainforce with a few Special Purpose Mechs that may be from the heavy side of each Class like a DDC.

Lights will outclass the Cicada, Oxides may become Anti-Light-Streakboats, Ravens/Spiders do the ECM-Duty.
BJs become the Medium Gun/Laserboat (the lightest Mech that has a good AC20 Setup) - 50ton Mediums and above do not offer enough advantages.
Jagers the Heavy, Cats when you need JJs.
Viktor the Assault

Tonnage left now goes into Mechs that serve Special Tasks in the hands of the best Veteran Pilots available to you.

Edited by Thorqemada, 06 December 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[Bront]

55 tons was always a sweet spot in the game. Heavy enough to carry some fun weapons, light enough to move pretty quickly, and JJs still only weight half a ton.

That said, the hardpoints are bad on some of those Saber mechs. A lot of them have firepower concentrated in a single easy to remove location (1 arm with 4 energy hardpoints on 2 different mechs I think), or have the firepower all on one side (Phoenix Griffin), or are just short hard-points that similar mechs have. They're not very meta mechs overall. Doesn't mean folks won't do well in them, and hard points don't always tell the story (Folks hated on the Shadowhawks because of their mixed hardpoints), but we'll have to see.

Saber mechs lack a lot of balistics, which means they're not super powered. Sure, JJs are nice, but some of those mechs aren't going to be top tier competitive mechs from the start.

[Thorqemada]

50+55 tons in this game mean you are to big, to slow, to weak compared to lighter or heavier Mechs - the BJ has JJs and it does anything a 50 or 55 tonner can do with the same speed and better size - it only lacks Missiles but that will be either a Light or Heavy Mech.

[Sephlock]

Without power creep we will never get rotary autocannons that don't jam constantly, or true autocannons.

[MustrumRidcully]

NamesAreStupid, on 06 December 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

No, No you're wrong. Powercreep is a good thing. So good that all of the Clans should completely overpower the IS variants and make them and years of work obsolete.

Who let the FASA line developer in?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 December 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Sephlock, on 07 December 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Without power creep we will never get rotary autocannons that don't jam constantly, or true autocannons.

And that's a bad thing?

[OneEyed Jack]

Thorqemada, on 07 December 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

50+55 tons in this game mean you are to big, to slow, to weak compared to lighter or heavier Mechs - the BJ has JJs and it does anything a 50 or 55 tonner can do with the same speed and better size - it only lacks Missiles but that will be either a Light or Heavy Mech.

The jumping BJs don't go near what a SH/Wolv/Griff can.

[Charons Little Helper]

Of note - I think one main reason that they released three new mediums with the phoenix package is because of upcoming weight limits. Since a high % of players will be stuck in mediums - they need to make sure there is enough variety for differing play styles.

[FupDup]

If you wanna talk about medium-class power creep, you should be talking about the Shadow Hawk. The stars just miraculously aligned with that mech and gave us a medium that can actually be good on its own merits in spite of being the size of an assault mech. The Saber mechs probably won't be able to match the Shawk unless something even more miraculous happens.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I'm sooo looking forward to the wolverine its been one of my favourite mechs for a long time.

The griffin is just a bonus.

[Bishop Steiner]

Just when I thought the Posts couldn't get any dumber.

the Sabres can jump. Otherwise they are pretty mediocre.

For one thing, in no way shape or form will either the Wolverine or Griffin be more powerful or versatile than the ShadowHawk. Extra JJs are largely meaningless, because 90% of the noobs on here think like you and think they only need a pair for Poptarting.

YLWs and CN9-Ds will continue to make excellent poptart hunters, especially since so many will do stupid things like try to cram dual PPC onto their Griffins which will leave them overheated and defenseless at close range. Streaktaros will be better Light Hunters (a role that might actually be useful with weight restrictions, instead of idiotic like it is now). And good pilots will continue to make "Pros" like you cry from their HBKs.

Will they be fun? Hope so. Useful? Hope so too, as I love Griffins from TT. OP? Power creep?
Son, try actually being here a little while before you think you actually know what is going on.

[Sephlock]

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

And that's a bad thing?

[DeadlyFred]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just when I thought the Posts couldn't get any dumber.

the Sabres can jump. Otherwise they are pretty mediocre.

For one thing, in no way shape or form will either the Wolverine or Griffin be more powerful or versatile than the ShadowHawk. Extra JJs are largely meaningless, because 90% of the noobs on here think like you and think they only need a pair for Poptarting.

YLWs and CN9-Ds will continue to make excellent poptart hunters, especially since so many will do stupid things like try to cram dual PPC onto their Griffins which will leave them overheated and defenseless at close range. Streaktaros will be better Light Hunters (a role that might actually be useful with weight restrictions, instead of idiotic like it is now). And good pilots will continue to make "Pros" like you cry from their HBKs.

Will they be fun? Hope so. Useful? Hope so too, as I love Griffins from TT. OP? Power creep?
Son, try actually being here a little while before you think you actually know what is going on.

Yeah, hang around long enough that you get an attitude like this guy!

Chill, dude. Guy was just starting up a discussion, on a discussion forum. That's what you do.

[Whatzituyah]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 December 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Who let the FASA line developer in?

To tell the truth I would let a FASA developer come in and tell PGI "What the "Scrap" did you do to my game?" because well they really stretched cannon with the weapon translation. That is what this thread is about right?

Sephlock, on 07 December 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

I think I can find a better example of that I think one exists but thats a pretty good example good job.

[Bishop Steiner]

DeadlyFred, on 07 December 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Yeah, hang around long enough that you get an attitude like this guy!

Chill, dude. Guy was just starting up a discussion, on a discussion forum. That's what you do.

Yeah, no.

Read the other posts from the guy. He thinks he is an all knowing pro, and posts as such, and yet is usualyl dead wrong.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 December 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yeah, no.

Read the other posts from the guy. He thinks he is an all knowing pro, and posts as such, and yet is usualyl dead wrong.

His posts have a habit of landing in my precious K-Town, where we take pride in improving them.

In the last thread that was sent, someone in particular (no names) apparently got a threesome with his ex-wife and a 24 yr.o. version of Brittney Spears!

[D04S02B04]

FupDup, on 07 December 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

If you wanna talk about medium-class power creep, you should be talking about the Shadow Hawk. The stars just miraculously aligned with that mech and gave us a medium that can actually be good on its own merits in spite of being the size of an assault mech. The Saber mechs probably won't be able to match the Shawk unless something even more miraculous happens.

I think that it is likely the Griffin and Wolverine will come out to be about the same size. If they were smaller, then they would be even more powerful!

I think that the SHD is inferior to the Saber Mechs primarily for reasons of hard points (as long as the developers don't go full r e t a r d with the hitboxes and model)

EDIT: To moderators full r e t a r d is not an insult. Its an expression for making bad decisions. If you don't like it just redact that point.

For a ballistic build comparison it is the only place where the SHD wins out because of the huge amount of space allowing for a choices of UAC5s, AC5s, AC20s etc but the WVR-6R is better off by a small amount because of ballistic hardpoint on the arm. If you look at the WVR-6R, you should be really comparing it with the CN-9D. For 5 tons more, you can an equally fast engine, more tonnage to carry heavier weapons, an extra Missile hardpoint which is good for SRMs, JJs in exchange for a different hitbox and one less energy hardpoint.

The rest of the variants like WVR-7K, GRF-1S, GRF-1N(P) have better combinations of energy and missile load outs.

I wanted to buy Quickdraw as my next mech recently because I think that its hardpoints and JJs are decent inspite of what it's model. A poster suggested the SHD for 5 tons lighter in a thread I read about the quickdraw. That got me thinking about the Saber mechs and if u look at the GRF-1S, you essentially looking at a 55ton QD that will move faster, have lighter JJs and better hardpoint placements.

DeadlyFred, on 07 December 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Yeah, hang around long enough that you get an attitude like this guy!

Chill, dude. Guy was just starting up a discussion, on a discussion forum. That's what you do.

I'm not too concerned about people like that. I met 4 other similar persons in game who trash talked me on the forums and they were pretty bad players.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

the Sabres can jump. Otherwise they are pretty mediocre.

The JJ is highly empowering. Without the JJ, a CN9-AL is a better model than some of the variants but getting 5 tons more can make a difference.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

For one thing, in no way shape or form will either the Wolverine or Griffin be more powerful or versatile than the ShadowHawk. Extra JJs are largely meaningless, because 90% of the noobs on here think like you and think they only need a pair for Poptarting.

You only need 1 JJ for HGN-733C to poptart. About 2-3 for other mechs is good unless you like to have fun and pick 5 JJs. Extra JJs may increase the speed at which you rise up but cost unnecessary weight in which Heatsinks is more important in a PPC build and generate additional heat.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

YLWs and CN9-Ds will continue to make excellent poptart hunters, especially since so many will do stupid things like try to cram dual PPC onto their Griffins which will leave them overheated and defenseless at close range. Streaktaros will be better Light Hunters (a role that might actually be useful with weight restrictions, instead of idiotic like it is now). And good pilots will continue to make "Pros" like you cry from their HBKs.

If you mentioned CN9-A or specifically HBK-4P, I might be convinced that you got good skill and knowledge of the game. In comparison with Saber mechs YLW is essentially a Griffin-1S with better hitboxes but without JJs and worse range on that 20 pin point damage.

As long as you have about 15 - 16 double heat sinks, overheating is not an issue. With the immense speed of the mediums, you can always run away and have someone else fight off the pursuers. There was once on Terra Therma, I was pop tarting from behind the cover of a friendly Atlas.

Edited by D04S02B04, 07 December 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[FupDup]

D04S02B04, on 07 December 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I think that it is likely the Griffin and Wolverine will come out to be about the same size. If they were smaller, then they would be even more powerful!

Russ Bullock already said that "they would also be 55 ton mech size," so we can pretty much confirm that the Sabre mechs will also be huge.

D04S02B04, on 07 December 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I think that the SHD is inferior to the Saber Mechs primarily for reasons of hard points (as long as the developers don't go full r e t a r d with the hitboxes and model)

For a ballistic build comparison it is the only place where the SHD wins out because of the huge amount of space allowing for a choices of UAC5s, AC5s, AC20s etc but the WVR-6R is better off by a small amount because of ballistic hardpoint on the arm. If you look at the WVR-6R, you should be really comparing it with the CN-9D. For 5 tons more, you can an equally fast engine, more tonnage to carry heavier weapons, an extra Missile hardpoint which is good for SRMs, JJs in exchange for a different hitbox and one less energy hardpoint.

The rest of the variants like WVR-7K, GRF-1S, GRF-1N(P) have better combinations of energy and missile load outs.

I wanted to buy Quickdraw as my next mech recently because I think that its hardpoints and JJs are decent inspite of what it's model. A poster suggested the SHD for 5 tons lighter in a thread I read about the quickdraw. That got me thinking about the Saber mechs and if u look at the GRF-1S, you essentially looking at a 55ton QD that will move faster, have lighter JJs and better hardpoint placements.

The Shad's ballistic placement is exactly what makes it so good. A typical "well balanced" Shad loadout will look like 2 ML, 2-4 SSRMs, and 1 AC/10 or UAC/5. When talking with medium mechs, the optimal number of ballistic hardpoints is exactly 1, because any more will require silly things like using MGs, 2 AC/2, or dedicating a whole lot of tonnage for 2 AC/5--having only 1 is perfect because it lets you have the highest number of other hardpoints (2D2 variant only). You also want 2 energy hardpoints for ML, because 1 is too weak and 3 can sometimes run too hot. Missiles can vary, but probably at least 2.

The fact that the AC is placed in a very high location, and is the longest range weapon of that loadout, works out perfectly. It also works out that the homing missiles are all in the torso instead of being in the arms. You can contribute to long-range fights with the shoulder cannon and you'll be hard to hit at range, and then you can brawl it up with your other weapons when the time comes.



For the Wolverine, the fact that the 6R has only 1 energy hardpoint is a disadvantage in and of itself, plus it also is mounted in the head so you can't even use an ERLL or ERPPC. It pretty much has to be a single ML every time. The Wolfie 6K is utter trash with 5 energy hardpoints, only 1 missile, and no JJs. The 7K has 3 energy and 3 missile, which is okay but not as good as a Kintaro or Shadow Hawk can do (which have 7 hardpoints). The Griffin 1N has the same hardpoints, and the same weaknesses--plus they are all mounted on the right side of the mech. The Griffin 1S has 4 energy and 2 missile, which is probably workable but will run a tad hot and won't have the raw power of an AC to rely on. Lastly, the Griffin 3M has the same harpdoints, but one of the energy is torso-mounted so it won't converge with the arm laser as well. The hardpoints are kinda bleh on most of the Sabre variants, so it'll all boil down to hitboxes and other quirks.

Don't get me wrong, because most of the Sabre mechs are still most likely going to be fairly useful (except perhaps the Wolfie 6K), but they ain't no Shads.

Edited by FupDup, 07 December 2013 - 06:24 PM.