19 replies to this topic

[Degalus]

I posted a suggestion in a other thread and get way off from the topic.
So i post the suggestion where it should be ^^

Some say without the honor rules clans dont work and some say because its only about cbills, honor rules wouldnt work.
Why we dont balance them with cbill honor rules?

The current C-Bill Rewards for Assault

• Win/Loss/Tie = 25,000
  
• Team Kill = -10,000 * how many teammates you have killed
  
• Component Destroyed = 2,500 * how many components you have destroyed
  
• Enemy Kill = 5,000 * how many enemies you have killed
  
• Enemy Kill Assist =7,500 * how many kill assists you got in the match
  
• Spotting Assist = 2,500 * how many spotting assists you got in the match
  
• TAG/Narc Assist = 2,500 * how many TAG/Narc assists you got in the game
  
• Damage Done = 25 * how much damage you did in the match

possible Clan C-Bill Rewards

• Win/Loss/Tie = 25,000
  
• Team Kill = -20,000 * how many teammates you have killed
  
• Component Destroyed = 2,500 * how many components you have destroyed
  
• Enemy Kill with Assist= 10,000 * how many enemies you have killed with assist from the team
  
• Solo Enemy Kill= 15,000 * how many enemies you have killed alone
  
• Enemy Kill Assist =2,000 * how many kill assists you got in the match
  
• Spotting Assist = 2,500 * how many spotting assists you got in the match
  
• TAG/Narc Assist = 2,500 * how many TAG/Narc assists you got in the game
  
• Damage Done = 25 * how much damage you did in the match

Letz take a look




5 kills 5 assists
IS=62500
Clan=60000

12 kills 0 assists
IS=60000
Clan=120000 (with solokills even more)

0 kills 12 assists
IS=90000
Clan=24000

When the rewards focus on kills and you get nearly no reward for assist, we can simulate a softer version of honor rules.
Completly delete the reward for assists would hurt the new players badly. I see too many players with 0kills 5 assists. It would get realy fast frustrating.
This system can also be used for XP

Update:
Because of Diego Angelus post that the system would lead to Kill steal i had an idea to prevent this.
Kill registrations change.
Its simple, the player which make the most dmg on a Mech gets the kill.
This should eliminate the Lasthiter.

In zagibus post "who is going to remember those numbers?" showed me a problem thats currently already happend to the existent system. We have no idea what does what in the Battle until we get the end of round screen where all points already added together.
C-Bill & XP displaying.
It would be nice if we can add a little text popup on the side over the chat, where you can see on every hit, kill, assist, spoting just everything you do, how many C-Bill and XP you gain.
We should be able to set it on or off in the Options.

What you think?

Edited by Degalus, 09 December 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

10 second idea What if CBill rewards were done this way

Base reward determined by IS drop weight.
Base reward / clan players in match = reward share

So the fewer clanners in a match the more they make winning.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 07 December 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[zagibu]

I still think Zellbrigen could be used to balance the clans. Change the R targeting system a bit, so that it allows a clan pilot to "claim" an opponent. Only killing claimed opponents gives any kind of reward. Clan members interfering in a battle between a claimed opponent and one of their own don't get any rewards for helping at all. I know it's not exactly Zellbrigen, but inspired by it. There has to be some motivation for clan pilots to not focus down the poor IS mechs, or else clan tech can never make it into the game in any lore-friendly way.

With this and 12 vs 8, it might be able to balance clan tech.

Degalus suggestion doesn't go far enough, because who is going to remember those numbers? There is still some kind of reward for both assists and kills, so you shoot at whatever you can shoot at in the heat of battle.

Edited by zagibu, 07 December 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

if Clan is has a lot stronger mechs that would be not enough to balance it out, all i see that doing is promoting KS on clan side but that will do nothing actually balance wise.

Edited by Diego Angelus, 07 December 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Sug]

Degalus, on 07 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Completely deleting the reward for assists would hurt the new players badly.

New players should not be playing clan mechs.

[Nehkrosis]

I agree, it should be based on some kind of player experience system. just to be sure.

[Degalus]

zagibu, on 07 December 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I still think Zellbrigen could be used to balance the clans. Change the R targeting system a bit, so that it allows a clan pilot to "claim" an opponent. Only killing claimed opponents gives any kind of reward. Clan members interfering in a battle between a claimed opponent and one of their own don't get any rewards for helping at all. I know it's not exactly Zellbrigen, but inspired by it. There has to be some motivation for clan pilots to not focus down the poor IS mechs, or else clan tech can never make it into the game in any lore-friendly way.

With this and 12 vs 8, it might be able to balance clan tech.

Degalus suggestion doesn't go far enough, because who is going to remember those numbers? There is still some kind of reward for both assists and kills, so you shoot at whatever you can shoot at in the heat of battle.

K i see your point there. The "claiming" of a target would not work out well i think.
First you would need a new button to "claim" a target.
2nd, random pop up targets claiming whitout knowing what it is would happen because everyone want a target.
It could also happen that everyone searching for the weakest target and claim it.
It looks like the claiming would produce i little chaos.
And also the "only claimed oppener give any kind of reward" would kill the fun of playing clans because everyone only running out to claim any target as fast as possible. See some lights how cant kill the target that they claimed but hey the heavy which killls it doesnt get anything....

edit: I agree with the numbers, currently we have also mostly no clue what we get. We need som little pop up text on the side that shows you instant what you get. Warthunder have this feature so you see for every hit the xp and money gain but they overdo it a little because sometimes it pop up big in the middle of the screen.

Diego Angelus, on 07 December 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

if Clan is has a lot stronger mechs that would be not enough to balance it out, all i see that doing is promoting KS on clan side but that will do nothing actually balance wise.

They stated multiple times that they will not come "stronger" like in the mw titles before.
Its right that the "kill gives" more and "assist nearly nothing" would lead to KS but maybe we need a new kill registration system. Currently i play sometimes Warthunder. I still get a kill for an enemy that i shooted down to nearly dead and a other player kill him. Looks like the one which make the most dmg on the enemy gets the kill. Maybe that could work here also.

Sug, on 07 December 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

New players should not be playing clan mechs.

Nehkrosis, on 08 December 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

I agree, it should be based on some kind of player experience system. just to be sure.

Would be hard for newcommer clanners from older MW titles. I wouldnt limit it until we get something like a char lvling system where we "unlock" mechs. (also for IS not only for clans)

Edited by Degalus, 09 December 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Sug]

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Would be hard for newcommer clanners from older MW titles. I wouldnt limit it until we get something like a char lvling system where we "unlock" mechs. (also for IS not only for clans)

They can be new to MWO but they can't be noobs. All pgi needs to do is add a few training missions like in MW2, ending with the player going through a trial of position. Defeating one mech earns you a position of mechwarrior and unlocks Clans. Most units that will play Clans will probably have some sort of internal trial of position for new players

I just don't want Clanners asking how to target something or change their weapon groups, etc. They should at least understand the game.

And really I'd rather pgi not add the Clans at all until we have a actual game for at least a year. What is the point of introducing the chaos of the clans if there is nothing to throw into chaos?
.

Edited by Sug, 09 December 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Degalus]

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

And really I'd rather pgi not add the Clans at all until we have a actual game for at least a year. What is the point of introducing the chaos of the clans if there is nothing to throw into chaos?
.

Currently i only wait for clans ... im not a big fan of IS Mechs not because clan is better or have omnimech. Its just because i like Clans and thier designs.
Beside of that, i think we need the invasion.
Sure we have IS faction vs IS faction but there is no real differenz. Both sides can have the same mechs and same setting as always.
I miss the clan mech vs IS mech feeling. Some pro. and con. for both sides.

I also think both sides should have thier noobs. Both sides must learn to fight, both sides should have thier progression.
I dont like the idea of "Clans are the elite playerbase"

[Sug]

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Currently i only wait for clans ... im not a big fan of IS Mechs not because clan is better or have omnimech. Its just because i like Clans and thier designs.
Beside of that, i think we need the invasion.
Sure we have IS faction vs IS faction but there is no real differenz. Both sides can have the same mechs and same setting as always.
I miss the clan mech vs IS mech feeling. Some pro. and con. for both sides.

I also think both sides should have thier noobs. Both sides must learn to fight, both sides should have thier progression.
I dont like the idea of "Clans are the elite playerbase"

I disagree with everything you said.

[Degalus]

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I disagree with everything you said.

Uhm.... Yea... very constructive..

Letz take a look again on your post

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

They can be new to MWO but they can't be noobs. All pgi needs to do is add a few training missions like in MW2, ending with the player going through a trial of position. Defeating one mech earns you a position of mechwarrior and unlocks Clans. Most units that will play Clans will probably have some sort of internal trial of position for new players

I just don't want Clanners asking how to target something or change their weapon groups, etc. They should at least understand the game.

So i think i had misunderstand that before. So you say they can be new but need a training first, right? No problem with that but the training should be before you even can choose Clan or IS.
I just dont want to separate "Noobs" and "Eliteplayers" because if In IS comes all Noobs and Clans only for skilled Players the balancing would be horrible. Clan (elite) vs IS (noobs) = IS get stomped

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

And really I'd rather pgi not add the Clans at all until we have a actual game for at least a year. What is the point of introducing the chaos of the clans if there is nothing to throw into chaos?
.

K thats your opinion but there are enough clanners which waited over a Year and still dont have seen a Clan mech.
I wait since Close Beta start for Clans and slowly get tired.
Ps.: I think there is never the time where clans will not bring chaos in the system. There will ever be the other side that dont like clans or think that clans get the better stuff ...

[focuspark]

shouldn't Clanners lose money for assists? I thought their whole philosophy was 1 vs 1 superiority.

IMO

Clanners should get:

10,000 * target weight / owner weight per kill
-10,000 per team kill
-5,000 per target attack which was already engaged by another clanner
25 * damage done
0 for target assists
0 for spotting
0 for NARC

IS pilots work together as a team with inferior equipment
Clanners work solo with superior equipement

[Degalus]

focuspark, on 09 December 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

shouldn't Clanners lose money for assists? I thought their whole philosophy was 1 vs 1 superiority.

IMO

Clanners should get:

10,000 * target weight / owner weight per kill
-10,000 per team kill
-5,000 per target attack which was already engaged by another clanner
25 * damage done
0 for target assists
0 for spotting
0 for NARC

IS pilots work together as a team with inferior equipment
Clanners work solo with superior equipement

I think PGI dont want to see the possibility of losing more then your minimum C-Bill gain, again.
I remember the repair and rearm cost discussions where some players couldnt play thier assaults because of the repaircosts.
Also i dont think PGI will change their mind with the "not stronger" clan tech.
We should still try to make the system in a way that it force you to play with "honor" and still makes fun. Also if you are not a hardcore elite pro gamer.

[Sug]

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I just dont want to separate "Noobs" and "Eliteplayers" because if In IS comes all Noobs and Clans only for skilled Players the balancing would be horrible.

It really depends on how CW is implemented. If we're still just being randomly matched with people to fight on a random map over Loyalty points then **** it, it doesn't really matter how they implement Clans or how people become Clan. The whole system will just be a lame Alliance vs Horde game.

My dream is that part of CW will include some basic training for new players, with a couple brief missions, like the ones in almost every mechwarrior game made in the past 30 years. Possibly throw in a little variation/flavor depending on which faction you join. After that they should get to decide if they want to be part of a House unit (where pgi has control over the battles), join a Merc unit ( the shifting borders pvp) or Lone Wolf it.

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

K thats your opinion but there are enough clanners which waited over a Year and still dont have seen a Clan mech.
I wait since Close Beta start for Clans and slowly get tired.

I just don't see CW and the Clans working out. If the map matters at all then some factions won't even see the Clans. Are all the FFR players just going to vanish?

If anyone from any House/Unit can join any match and fight any Clan then there's no point in having a map and CW boils down to earning meaningless loyalty points with various factions.

focuspark, on 09 December 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

shouldn't Clanners lose money for assists?

Clanners don't have money. Clan tech should be based on a separate and different honor system.

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think PGI doesn't want to see the possibility of losing more then your minimum C-Bill gain, again.
I remember the repair and rearm cost discussions where some players couldn't play their assaults because of the repair costs.

Ah the days when mech classes mattered.

Degalus, on 09 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Also i dont think PGI will change their mind with the "not stronger" clan tech.

That scares me more than anything. 2 years to get our weapons "kinda" balanced and they think they can bring in all new weapons...

Edited by Sug, 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Degalus]

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

It really depends on how CW is implemented. If we're still just being randomly matched with people to fight on a random map over Loyalty points then **** it, it doesn't really matter how they implement Clans or how people become Clan. The whole system will just be a lame Alliance vs Horde game.

My dream is that part of CW will include some basic training for new players, with a couple brief missions, like the ones in almost every mechwarrior game made in the past 30 years. Possibly throw in a little variation/flavor depending on which faction you join. After that they should get to decide if they want to be part of a House unit (where pgi has control over the battles), join a Merc unit ( the shifting borders pvp) or Lone Wolf it.

If we look on what PGI stated .... it will be the first one...
I would like to see something like you mentioned.

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I just don't see CW and the Clans working out. If the map matters at all then some factions won't even see the Clans. Are all the FFR players just going to vanish?

If anyone from any House/Unit can join any match and fight any Clan then there's no point in having a map and CW boils down to earning meaningless loyalty points with various factions.

And again ... looks like it will be the "all factions vs clans" or "faction vs faction". They didnt mentioned anything else

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Clanners don't have money. Clan tech should be based on a separate and different honor system.

Hmmm but why cost a Timberwolf 18 mil C-Bills? (this is from the TT)
If they realy making a Honorsystem then they will take both to grind. Honorsystem to unlock and C-Bill to pay.
I dont think that they want to let us pay the Clanmechs only with Honorpoints. On the other hand... what would change? grinding C-Bills or grinding Honorpoints

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Ah the days when mech classes mattered.

I also miss these days. I had no problems with the r&r.

Sug, on 09 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

That scares me more than anything. 2 years to get our weapons "kinda" balanced and they think they can bring in all new weapons...

I would like to see Clantech with the old little "better" touch but like many discussions here mentioned... this wouldnt work for mwo.
"Change a value from 1.6 just to 2.0 and everyone lose their minds"
Rage will happen also when they nerf it to death because "its different" its sad but they cant make everyone happy. I only hope there are still a little clanfeeling left after the pgi nerfhammer.

*edited because i missunderstand the last text*

Edited by Degalus, 10 December 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[focuspark]

I'd like to add that Honor should take the place of C-Bills for clanners. They should earn and spend "honor" to acquire new 'mechs and components. I have no problem with each match having a minimum earned value (zero would be fair).

[Degalus]

focuspark, on 09 December 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

I'd like to add that Honor should take the place of C-Bills for clanners. They should earn and spend "honor" to acquire new 'mechs and components. I have no problem with each match having a minimum earned value (zero would be fair).

Like i said, clan mechs cost C-Bills. And i must correcting me the Timberwolf (75 ton) cost 24,233,124 C-Bills.
If PGI add Honor it would be a additional currency. More to grind ... more to get money from us for converting points ....
Thats not how i want to see it , its a forecast how PGI will make it

The zero reward thing is pretty user unfriendly and would split the playerbase in the Clan (eliteplayers) IS ( beginners).
Sure it would be Clan like but shrink the playerbase for clans and that produce a completly other problem.
I give you an example:
Star Trek Online, introduce the Klingons first only as a new pvp race.That worked realy bad because it was extremly hard to lvl them without campain. They was also harder to play then federation with the few ships they had. So letz come to the real problem.
The Devs added way less content for klingons then for federation. Feds got 4 ships while kling got 1.
The devs said that they cant put more work into klingons because under 20% of the playerbase play klingons and its not costeffizent.
I see the same problem comes to mwo if you want to split the playerbase in (beginners & normal players) are IS and (skilled hardcore gamers) are Clans.

Edited by Degalus, 10 December 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Firewuff]

The biggest problems with all of this is if kills are awarded to the mech who does the most damage or no reward for assists it will make ANY light completely unviable. Kill "stealing" is a massive misnoma. If a mechs strips the armor but then gets driven back destroyed or out of position and I managed to get in position and destroy said mech with my mg locust its my kill, I may have done less "damage" but the other player never managed to do what was needed.

This is totally aside from the fact you can do 30 dmg to armor I can destroy an engine with 10dmg but the explosion caused will add up to alot more than that so I'll still get the kill....

Clans dont need a separate reward system, maybe some tweeks would be nice though for flavour

[Degalus]

Firewuff, on 10 December 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

The biggest problems with all of this is if kills are awarded to the mech who does the most damage or no reward for assists it will make ANY light completely unviable. Kill "stealing" is a massive misnoma. If a mechs strips the armor but then gets driven back destroyed or out of position and I managed to get in position and destroy said mech with my mg locust its my kill, I may have done less "damage" but the other player never managed to do what was needed.

"YOU WANT THE FULL HONOR FOR KILLING SUCH A WEAK TARGET? HOW DARE YOU TO EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!" Would a clanner say.
Pgi already stated the rolewarfaremodules that give you bonuses. For a light maybe a x3 or x4 on capturing or spoting targets or in other words "to do your job" as a light.
The role of a light is not to run around killstealing targets or make big amount of dmg.

Firewuff, on 10 December 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

This is totally aside from the fact you can do 30 dmg to armor I can destroy an engine with 10dmg but the explosion caused will add up to alot more than that so I'll still get the kill....

I would give you some extra dmg for the score for destroy bodyparts but it would not give you the kill when someone did 250 dmg on the target and you just 30 to finish him off.

Firewuff, on 10 December 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Clans dont need a separate reward system, maybe some tweeks would be nice though for flavour

My suggested rewardsystem is to simulate honor and change the playstyle. Tweeks wouldnt be enought.

Edited by Degalus, 11 December 2013 - 09:09 AM.