Hello,
I've recently elited all my Cataphract's, and have purchased a Protector with the intention of using one CTF variant and the Protector to learn to brawl more effectively.
It's a pretty big departure from my usual gameplay, which consists of harassing and striking exposed flanks. Naturally, this utilises much faster mechs than the CTF (to an extent - my Ilya is pretty fast) and particularly the Orion.
What I'm looking for, is advice on builds and general tactics to get the best out of these mechs in a close-range environment. Basically, help me stop getting torn to shreds so damn quick!
The builds I'm using:
Protector
Cataphract-3D
Any suggestions are most welcome.
1
Brawling Heavies
Started by xMintaka, Dec 08 2013 09:40 PM
16 replies to this topic
#2
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- The 1 Percent
- 273 posts
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Posted 08 December 2013 - 10:17 PM
Hmm.
Apart from some notes about ammo placement, those are generally very decent builds.
The first thing that comes to mind is your armor distribution. As a rule of thumb I always have the frontal armor on my side torsos be as much or more than what I have on the arms. Your Protector is fast enough to not have to rely on back armor. High front armor is /extremely/ important in brawls. This is why many Atlas pilots leave very little armor for their back.
You've done well to keep the leg armor on your Cataphract high. I would personally find a way to get more jump jets in. They are /invaluable/ when you need to hop over to land the sealing AC20 round. Full jumpjets is what made my HGN-733C and it's vertically mobile AC20 an absolute terror on maps like River City.
Perhaps change down to a STD275 and put in 2 extra jump jets and an AMS with a ton of ammo?
Definitely fire your medium lasers in twos. Ammo count is good on both mech, 4 tons is ideal in most matches. Same deal with the armor on this one, though. People will target your right torso (like they do on an Atlas - it infuriates me but it tells me I'm not playing against idiots) to remove your firepower and your torsos are an extremely easy target on the CTF.
My number one suggestion to anyone struggling is mastering the torso twist.
I lose the arms on any mech I own other than lights and Cicadas before I lose anything else.
You won't lose much by losing an arm in either of these mechs.
Remember that your main gun is in your right torso - so like in many other chassis - use your left arm and torso to take damage.
I would put enough armor on the Orion's front side torsos to equal the arms and the rest to the back side and put a bit more armor to the front of the CT as that's the enemy's primary target - it's as big as an Awesome's (which coincidentally, in my opinion, is THE mech to learn torso twisting in). This way you can show a bit of your back side when you arm shield so as to not expose the small amount of space your CT protrudes forward.
For the CTF I would take a note out from your previous experience as a skirmisher and stick to groups to maximize your effectiveness. CTF is (apparently, according to PGI) the most often owned mech and is deeply hated by many for it's Jagermech-like ballistic builds - people will try and smash your face in as quick as possible. Once you are in, though, you will quickly overwhelm enemies. Personally, I would do battle at around 180-200 meters as to retain some of the mobility and allow for free aiming.
Apart from some notes about ammo placement, those are generally very decent builds.
The first thing that comes to mind is your armor distribution. As a rule of thumb I always have the frontal armor on my side torsos be as much or more than what I have on the arms. Your Protector is fast enough to not have to rely on back armor. High front armor is /extremely/ important in brawls. This is why many Atlas pilots leave very little armor for their back.
You've done well to keep the leg armor on your Cataphract high. I would personally find a way to get more jump jets in. They are /invaluable/ when you need to hop over to land the sealing AC20 round. Full jumpjets is what made my HGN-733C and it's vertically mobile AC20 an absolute terror on maps like River City.
Perhaps change down to a STD275 and put in 2 extra jump jets and an AMS with a ton of ammo?
Definitely fire your medium lasers in twos. Ammo count is good on both mech, 4 tons is ideal in most matches. Same deal with the armor on this one, though. People will target your right torso (like they do on an Atlas - it infuriates me but it tells me I'm not playing against idiots) to remove your firepower and your torsos are an extremely easy target on the CTF.
My number one suggestion to anyone struggling is mastering the torso twist.
I lose the arms on any mech I own other than lights and Cicadas before I lose anything else.
You won't lose much by losing an arm in either of these mechs.
Remember that your main gun is in your right torso - so like in many other chassis - use your left arm and torso to take damage.
I would put enough armor on the Orion's front side torsos to equal the arms and the rest to the back side and put a bit more armor to the front of the CT as that's the enemy's primary target - it's as big as an Awesome's (which coincidentally, in my opinion, is THE mech to learn torso twisting in). This way you can show a bit of your back side when you arm shield so as to not expose the small amount of space your CT protrudes forward.
For the CTF I would take a note out from your previous experience as a skirmisher and stick to groups to maximize your effectiveness. CTF is (apparently, according to PGI) the most often owned mech and is deeply hated by many for it's Jagermech-like ballistic builds - people will try and smash your face in as quick as possible. Once you are in, though, you will quickly overwhelm enemies. Personally, I would do battle at around 180-200 meters as to retain some of the mobility and allow for free aiming.
Edited by Edweird, 08 December 2013 - 11:14 PM.
#3
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- Ace Of Spades
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- LocationStockholm
Posted 08 December 2013 - 11:24 PM
CTF-3D: Brawler.
That is probably the best brawling heavy mech untill SRM hitreg gets fixed. You can drop some leg armor and one heatsink for an AMS with 1 ton of ammo if you feel that it would aid you more.
5 tons of Ac20 Ammo is kinda needed, you don't just charge in and brawl. JJ's lets you flank more effectively and drop shots from over cover at close range and from behind friendly mechs if you have to. They also lets you double as a heavy striker. As a result you will spend alot more ammo overall, 5 tons almost never run out if you protect your AC20 and spend it all well.
That is probably the best brawling heavy mech untill SRM hitreg gets fixed. You can drop some leg armor and one heatsink for an AMS with 1 ton of ammo if you feel that it would aid you more.
5 tons of Ac20 Ammo is kinda needed, you don't just charge in and brawl. JJ's lets you flank more effectively and drop shots from over cover at close range and from behind friendly mechs if you have to. They also lets you double as a heavy striker. As a result you will spend alot more ammo overall, 5 tons almost never run out if you protect your AC20 and spend it all well.
#4
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- The Handsome Devil
- 4,452 posts
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- LocationOutreach
Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:28 AM
Solid builds. Very few modifications needed to min max them.
PROTECTOR
Shaved 8 points of armor off each leg and arm, removed one heat sink, and downgraded a 6 launcher to a 4. Added artemis and another medium laser.
Artemis is worth it every time IMO, and the third Mlas will give you some more punch without making the heat unbearable. Having an SRM10 also means that you get 20 shots to the dot, so no mini missile packs for the last shot lol.
The only modifications to the Cataphract would be personal preference. Swapping armor, engine size, heat sinks and JJ's for more or less of the same stuff. The weapon loadout is tried and true.
PROTECTOR
Shaved 8 points of armor off each leg and arm, removed one heat sink, and downgraded a 6 launcher to a 4. Added artemis and another medium laser.
Artemis is worth it every time IMO, and the third Mlas will give you some more punch without making the heat unbearable. Having an SRM10 also means that you get 20 shots to the dot, so no mini missile packs for the last shot lol.
The only modifications to the Cataphract would be personal preference. Swapping armor, engine size, heat sinks and JJ's for more or less of the same stuff. The weapon loadout is tried and true.
Edited by Roughneck45, 09 December 2013 - 09:29 AM.
#5
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- Overlord
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- LocationOutreach
Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:03 AM
This is the orion ON1-K brawler. The protector is one energy hardpoint shorter, so imagine this build minus 1 medium laser and plus one heat sink: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...41c4132f167e331
I'm a long time brawler, so here are a few tips. In MWO the best real brawlers are DDCs and Stalkers, heavies dont really have the speed/armor mix to stand toe to toe with other brawlers. That being said, they are very fun, and I love my protector, so here's what you've done wrong with that build.
Get the ammo out of the torso. You only need 2 srm ammo and 3 ac20 ammo, 2 of each in each leg and one in the head. If you need to, skimp out on head armor, its not too important, and if you take a 40 point alpha to the head, however unlikely that is, you'll die anyway.
stick with the standard 300, but drop the two extra heatsinks on your left torso and add artemis and an extra medium laser.
If you have leftover tonnage feel free to allocate that to heatsinks/armor if you have space.
number one tip is to remember your arms are expendable and if you brawl properly, through use of defensive torso twisting, you will almost certainly lose those arms first. This is normal.
My other tip is for the love of god do not brawl in a cataphract. It has the profile of a barn! It's far too wide to be a good brawler. It's torso hitboxes are massive from the front and its weapons are low slung and dont shield very well since so much of your torso is above the shoulder.
@roughneck, you have more than enough tonnage to upgrade the srm4 to a 6 with artemis aswell as keep the medium laser and the std 300, so DO NOT downgrade weapons to save tonnage. Also, for the love of god man get that ac20 ammo OUT of your torso!
@mrplanetarian, the CTF is as I said too wide to be an efficient brawler. You are right to say that until srm registration is fixed brawling is kind of on the back burner, but 3 medium lasers and an ac20 on a 3D are not enough, even with jump jets, and you have too much equipment on your arms, which should be considered expendable.
Trust me, I learned to brawl under the tutelage of some of the best competitive brawlers in the Remnant, in my opinion, some of the best this community has to offer.
If you have problems with getting near targets, consider this, brawlers never run alone, make sure you have at the very least sniper support that is focusing down targets to cover YOU and not just providing general suppression. Having another brawler by your side is also best.
Another thing to consider is patience. Brawlers often have to wait under cover until the enemy comes within their optimal range (often damaged from sniper fire).
When approaching targets however, always turn your torso away, dont worry about taking off shots, because generally you are outside of your optimal range. Crank your torso to the side so that incoming fire takes your arms and side torsos out first. If you lose an arm, switch to the other, once you lose that, switch to your torsos. (those have most of your weapons so that is obviously last resort).
Another thing to consider is you will not be topping damage charts. You should be able to disable or destroy quite a few targets if they're fool enough to get close to you, but kills dont equate to damage, and because you'll be spending almost as much time hiding or absorbing damage through your arms, as you will be shooting, you wont have that optimal damage that snipers can get, which is normal. You are a damage sponge AND a heavy hitter. Where mediums rely on speed and maneuverability, and snipers rely on high alpha at long range, brawlers rely on just being able to soak up damage and not die, while simultaneously unleashing hell on every target near by.
One last thing to remember is never to be caught in the open, especially if you are alone. Brawlers have obvious range limitations, and often speed limitations (speed is critical, but you are not a medium mech, so expect values between 60 and 70 for assaults to be optimal and 70 to 80 for heavies) you are a sitting duck if you are caught in the open. Always take covered routes, stick close to your team, and be patient.
I'm a long time brawler, so here are a few tips. In MWO the best real brawlers are DDCs and Stalkers, heavies dont really have the speed/armor mix to stand toe to toe with other brawlers. That being said, they are very fun, and I love my protector, so here's what you've done wrong with that build.
Get the ammo out of the torso. You only need 2 srm ammo and 3 ac20 ammo, 2 of each in each leg and one in the head. If you need to, skimp out on head armor, its not too important, and if you take a 40 point alpha to the head, however unlikely that is, you'll die anyway.
stick with the standard 300, but drop the two extra heatsinks on your left torso and add artemis and an extra medium laser.
If you have leftover tonnage feel free to allocate that to heatsinks/armor if you have space.
number one tip is to remember your arms are expendable and if you brawl properly, through use of defensive torso twisting, you will almost certainly lose those arms first. This is normal.
My other tip is for the love of god do not brawl in a cataphract. It has the profile of a barn! It's far too wide to be a good brawler. It's torso hitboxes are massive from the front and its weapons are low slung and dont shield very well since so much of your torso is above the shoulder.
@roughneck, you have more than enough tonnage to upgrade the srm4 to a 6 with artemis aswell as keep the medium laser and the std 300, so DO NOT downgrade weapons to save tonnage. Also, for the love of god man get that ac20 ammo OUT of your torso!
@mrplanetarian, the CTF is as I said too wide to be an efficient brawler. You are right to say that until srm registration is fixed brawling is kind of on the back burner, but 3 medium lasers and an ac20 on a 3D are not enough, even with jump jets, and you have too much equipment on your arms, which should be considered expendable.
Trust me, I learned to brawl under the tutelage of some of the best competitive brawlers in the Remnant, in my opinion, some of the best this community has to offer.
If you have problems with getting near targets, consider this, brawlers never run alone, make sure you have at the very least sniper support that is focusing down targets to cover YOU and not just providing general suppression. Having another brawler by your side is also best.
Another thing to consider is patience. Brawlers often have to wait under cover until the enemy comes within their optimal range (often damaged from sniper fire).
When approaching targets however, always turn your torso away, dont worry about taking off shots, because generally you are outside of your optimal range. Crank your torso to the side so that incoming fire takes your arms and side torsos out first. If you lose an arm, switch to the other, once you lose that, switch to your torsos. (those have most of your weapons so that is obviously last resort).
Another thing to consider is you will not be topping damage charts. You should be able to disable or destroy quite a few targets if they're fool enough to get close to you, but kills dont equate to damage, and because you'll be spending almost as much time hiding or absorbing damage through your arms, as you will be shooting, you wont have that optimal damage that snipers can get, which is normal. You are a damage sponge AND a heavy hitter. Where mediums rely on speed and maneuverability, and snipers rely on high alpha at long range, brawlers rely on just being able to soak up damage and not die, while simultaneously unleashing hell on every target near by.
One last thing to remember is never to be caught in the open, especially if you are alone. Brawlers have obvious range limitations, and often speed limitations (speed is critical, but you are not a medium mech, so expect values between 60 and 70 for assaults to be optimal and 70 to 80 for heavies) you are a sitting duck if you are caught in the open. Always take covered routes, stick close to your team, and be patient.
Edited by pbiggz, 09 December 2013 - 10:15 AM.
#7
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- Overlord
- 4,729 posts
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- LocationOutreach
Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:27 AM
Samziel, on 09 December 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:
pbiggz said pretty much all you can say. I am not a professional, but I remade your Protector build on smurfy.
PROTECTOR
And like said, artemis is a MUST on higher than SRM-2 or LRM-5.
PROTECTOR
And like said, artemis is a MUST on higher than SRM-2 or LRM-5.
(drop the ac20 ammo in the arm and add a torso heatsink)
#8
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- The Seraph
- 541 posts
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- LocationFinland
Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:35 AM
pbiggz, on 09 December 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:
(drop the ac20 ammo in the arm and add a torso heatsink)
No, I usually need 4 tons of ac20 ammo. I can easily manage that heat.
Edited by Samziel, 09 December 2013 - 10:36 AM.
#10
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- The Handsome Devil
- 4,452 posts
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- LocationOutreach
Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:15 PM
Samziel, on 09 December 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:
No, I usually need 4 tons of ac20 ammo. I can easily manage that heat.
Yup. If you plan on living and carrying your team to victory you need 4 tons. 3 always runs out in close games.
#11
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- FP Veteran - Beta 1
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- Locationmy Tier is bigger than yours.
Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:55 PM
Have to support that opinion. I haul 4 tons of ammo on all of my AC/20 builds. (Victors, HGN-733C, BJ-1, two Atlas that I never play with), and rarely bring any home with me... which is going to hurt when Repair and Rearm comes back.
#12
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- Elite Founder
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- LocationAnder's Moon
Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:03 PM
You can't go wrong with PPCs, AC/5s, AC/20s and UAC/5s in any combination for brawling. Yes, even PPCs, despite the minimum range pair great; ER PPC + AC/20 is an awesome, awesome config for a medium, but this is a Heavy thread.
#13
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- Bridesmaid
- 397 posts
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- LocationOakland, California Republic, North America, Terra
Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:17 PM
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...adddc0229f781af
OP, my CTF is very similar to yours. I actually purchased a 2nd one for the express purpose of leaving ferro on there to squeeze a bit more speed out of it.
OP, my CTF is very similar to yours. I actually purchased a 2nd one for the express purpose of leaving ferro on there to squeeze a bit more speed out of it.
#14
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:46 PM
Thank you all for your replies.
I ended up making the changes to the Orion build as suggested here, dropping some heatsinks to put Artemis on the SRM's. Had some moderate success with it, but nothing to write home about.
Torso twisting was something I picked up playing lights and in particular the Centurion/Shadowhawk. They all taught me quite a lot, but it's one thing to be able to do it correctly in a responsive mech. It's a whole different story in the Orion, it's very sluggish.
After a while of frustration, I decided to try a PPC in the torso energy slot. It's the only thing that makes the Protector different from the others, anyway. What a change that made! It's an absolute behemoth now, as much as I hate to admit that the AC/PPC meta is as effective as it is...
As for brawling in the Cataphract? I just cant do it. Perhaps it is just too wide, as was mentioned. It's gone back to its role as a flanker with two AC10's and a big-ol XL.
Thanks once again, all.
I ended up making the changes to the Orion build as suggested here, dropping some heatsinks to put Artemis on the SRM's. Had some moderate success with it, but nothing to write home about.
Torso twisting was something I picked up playing lights and in particular the Centurion/Shadowhawk. They all taught me quite a lot, but it's one thing to be able to do it correctly in a responsive mech. It's a whole different story in the Orion, it's very sluggish.
After a while of frustration, I decided to try a PPC in the torso energy slot. It's the only thing that makes the Protector different from the others, anyway. What a change that made! It's an absolute behemoth now, as much as I hate to admit that the AC/PPC meta is as effective as it is...
As for brawling in the Cataphract? I just cant do it. Perhaps it is just too wide, as was mentioned. It's gone back to its role as a flanker with two AC10's and a big-ol XL.
Thanks once again, all.
#15
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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:48 PM
Yeah, the Phract has a bad brawling frame, it really does. There's yet to be a super good brawling heavy, I had hopes for the Orion but they were dashed.
Honestly I think brawlers are best off in Shadow Hawks now.
Honestly I think brawlers are best off in Shadow Hawks now.
Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 10:48 PM.
#16
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- 17 posts
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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:46 PM
Taking to piloting Ilya recently, and I'll say this for it - it's not a brawler, but nobody wants to brawl with it. Rolling with the 3AC/5 3MLas build and the sustained fire output is insanity. It's not a long-ranger fighter, it's not a front-line slugger, but if you get a 'phract behind your front liners? That's the sweet spot.
#17
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:49 AM
Yup, the Ilya is an absolute horror of a fire support mech. I'm not the best pilot of them, and still do fairly well. I once saw a lone Ilya solo a completely fresh Atlas with minimal help from me in a Spider (I was jamming ECM), then go on to take out a Stalker shortly after. It's simply nuts how quickly they tear through armour.
Victor, the Orion can work okay. But I agree with you here, of the few heavies I've played, all are better suited to other roles.
Nor can I disagree with you about the Shadowhawk, although something should still be said for the CN9-A. It's still a beast.
Victor, the Orion can work okay. But I agree with you here, of the few heavies I've played, all are better suited to other roles.
Nor can I disagree with you about the Shadowhawk, although something should still be said for the CN9-A. It's still a beast.
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