117 replies to this topic

[Rhinehart]

The thing about the top mounted weapon in my universe was piltoing the Marauder in Mekteks MW4 add ons it made the mech totally distinctive, especially when observing weapons fire from the cockpit. Also I loved the canon stories where Maruader pilots would use terrain to screen all but the topmost portion of the mech and aim their ACs with persicopes, a distinctly low tech but clever approach. Savage the enemy at range and when they get close out from behind that hill/slash barricade steps a mostly intact Maruauder, perhaps minus the the top mounted gun but otherwise very mean and nasty.


Finally it was one of the few mechs that didn't look like a guy in a retro robot costume. With the top mounted gun, ball and socket arms and cyclops like viewport it didn't look like any other mech in existance. That more than any connection with Robotech was what drew me to the mech.

Frankly it seems like Harmony not wanting to share its toys ought to be the biggest feather in Battletech's cap. It's obvious that FASA and its inheritors achieved far more with these designs then Harmony ever came close to.

That being said, can we redesign it somehow with removing the singular features that make it a Marauder? Stay true to established canon and come up with a workable look new enough to pass muster?

I'd personally be happy with the previously shown design if it just had the option for the top mounted cannon. Mektek implementing their designs into MW4 seems to have had no problem with the mechanic of dorsally based gun racks. Shouldn't PGI be able to manage it?

Edited by Rhinehart, 16 December 2011 - 06:23 PM.

[feor]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 14 December 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

i'm a bit lost here guys. is the Jenner IIC considered un-seen/re-seen since it went through a major redesign? love the original Jenner IIC design.

Since people seem to have ignored your question:

The Jenner IIC, along with most of the clan mechs and a few IS mechs in the original TRO3055, were drawn on commission by a group called Victor Musical Industries. (the same people who did the Japanese Battletech illustrations, and at least had a hand in the original Robotech art design, though I don't know their exact relation to that production)

After the debacle with the original Unseen, FASA moved quickly to try and eliminate any artwork that hadn't been produced in-house and for which they could potentially be sued over. These mechs became a kind of "soft unseen" They weren't outright banned from being shown like the Robotech sourced ones were, but FASA (and later Fanpro/CGL) wouldn't be using the artwork in any new publications.

Once Project Pheonix happened and had an overall positive reception Fanpro/CGL wet ahead and started getting redraws of other mechs that had become unseen, including most of the TRO3055 VMI artwork. Then in 2009 CGL un-unseened most of the non in-house artwork it had used in the past when it got licenses from the original companies. (The only one it couldn't get was the original Macross artwork, because someone was holding a grudge, probably) While I can't say for sure, I'm sure going from a sub-licencer under Wizkids to a direct licencer with Topps with the greater access to Topps' financial and legal backing, played a role in getting that done.

[feor]

Rhinehart, on 16 December 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

The thing about the top mounted weapon in my universe was piltoing the Marauder...

I don't have any problem with the gun being offset, but I agree it should be raised above the main body of the mech. Having it tucked in beside the cockpit like the PP reseen one basically just makes it a birdwalker hunchback. (I really wish they'd used the PP Mad IIC artwork for the standard Marauder)

[Black Sunder]

I want the original Unseen but with Alex's take on it.

[Petroff Northrup]

I honestly do not care as long as we get a Whammy in the game and it is close enough in appearance that at first glance i can look at it and say, 'That's a freaking Warhammer, when can I get one?"

[Artanis Creed]

Oppi, on 15 December 2011 - 06:39 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but they do

The IS name is "Mad Cat" because it looks like a mix of a Marauder and a Catapult (Catapult torso + missile launchers, Marauder legs and arms), so there's not much point arguing about it ...

Timberwolf got it's IS designation cause their computers didnt recognize the design...and kept switching back an forth... Only similarities i can see are RJ legs and an ovoid shaped torso... the legs on all 3 mechs are different as are the Torso sections... course u can say that most RJ mechs look alike cause they have RJ legs and most have ovoid torsos... (Stalker for another example)

But my point originally was that people were saying that the Timberwolf/MAD CAT and the Marauder were the same thing...which they are clearly not.

[Rayah]

Middle ground here, I'd like to see all of the Mechs be rebooted, and rebooting the re-seen will probably get HG to leave them alone.

[Strum Wealh]

feor, on 16 December 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

I don't have any problem with the gun being offset, but I agree it should be raised above the main body of the mech. Having it tucked in beside the cockpit like the PP reseen one basically just makes it a birdwalker hunchback.

This.

-----

Also, as a side note, I finally found the rule about split weapon locations!

Quote

The critical slots for AC/20-type weapons, as well as the Heavy Gauss rifle, and artillery weapons (Arrow IV, Thumper and Sniper) can be split between two adjacent locations.
Triple-strength myomer can be split among any number of locations.
For all other weapons and equipment, all critical slots must be in a single location unless the description of the item specifically states otherwise.

(CBT Master Rules, pg. 120)

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

feor, on 16 December 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

Since people seem to have ignored your question:

The Jenner IIC, along with most of the clan mechs and a few IS mechs in the original TRO3055, were drawn on commission by a group called Victor Musical Industries. (the same people who did the Japanese Battletech illustrations, and at least had a hand in the original Robotech art design, though I don't know their exact relation to that production)

After the debacle with the original Unseen, FASA moved quickly to try and eliminate any artwork that hadn't been produced in-house and for which they could potentially be sued over. These mechs became a kind of "soft unseen" They weren't outright banned from being shown like the Robotech sourced ones were, but FASA (and later Fanpro/CGL) wouldn't be using the artwork in any new publications.

Once Project Pheonix happened and had an overall positive reception Fanpro/CGL wet ahead and started getting redraws of other mechs that had become unseen, including most of the TRO3055 VMI artwork. Then in 2009 CGL un-unseened most of the non in-house artwork it had used in the past when it got licenses from the original companies. (The only one it couldn't get was the original Macross artwork, because someone was holding a grudge, probably) While I can't say for sure, I'm sure going from a sub-licencer under Wizkids to a direct licencer with Topps with the greater access to Topps' financial and legal backing, played a role in getting that done.

thanks for the info damm shame though, really loved the orignal Jenner IIC

[dh crow]

I couldn't care less if they don't turn up at all - but given some of them are house staples, it makes more sense to just redesign those and scrap the rest.

[verybad]

Rhinehart, on 16 December 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

The thing about the top mounted weapon in my universe was piltoing the Marauder in Mekteks MW4 add ons it made the mech totally distinctive, especially when observing weapons fire from the cockpit. Also I loved the canon stories where Maruader pilots would use terrain to screen all but the topmost portion of the mech and aim their ACs with persicopes, a distinctly low tech but clever approach. Savage the enemy at range and when they get close out from behind that hill/slash barricade steps a mostly intact Maruauder, perhaps minus the the top mounted gun but otherwise very mean and nasty.


Finally it was one of the few mechs that didn't look like a guy in a retro robot costume. With the top mounted gun, ball and socket arms and cyclops like viewport it didn't look like any other mech in existance. That more than any connection with Robotech was what drew me to the mech.

Frankly it seems like Harmony not wanting to share its toys ought to be the biggest feather in Battletech's cap. It's obvious that FASA and its inheritors achieved far more with these designs then Harmony ever came close to.

That being said, can we redesign it somehow with removing the singular features that make it a Marauder? Stay true to established canon and come up with a workable look new enough to pass muster?

I'd personally be happy with the previously shown design if it just had the option for the top mounted cannon. Mektek implementing their designs into MW4 seems to have had no problem with the mechanic of dorsally based gun racks. Shouldn't PGI be able to manage it?

Glad you liked the Marauder(s) in our Mechpacks, I did both of them. As well as the Behemoth (same sort of style)

The reason we didn't have problems with Harmony Gold was because it was for a free release.A mod, not a game that actually made money.

We actually asked them if it would be ok for us to use their designs before we put them in. They responded "We don't sue fans."
Which is one of the coolest responses from a company you can get, and led to me respecting them a lot more than many battletech fans do.

The designs aren't viable for a profitable game unless licenses are bought (I have no idea how much that would cost)

Edited by verybad, 17 December 2011 - 03:13 PM.

[The1WithTheGun]

I voted for a combo between 2&3. Some of the Phoenix designs are improvements over the originals (*cough*OSTMECHS*cough*), some are equally as good as the originals on their own merits (Battlemaster, Thunderbolt), but some kinda made me go *whuh?* (Locust; don't like the look of the nose gun, Shadowhawk/Phoenix Hawk - don't like the Cobra Comander heads, Rifleman - is WAY too boxy and looks like it would topple over as soon as it lifts a foot).

In any case, even the ones I do like more could benefit from some FlyingDebris.

Edited by The1WithTheGun, 18 December 2011 - 09:31 AM.

[Larry Headrick]

I would love to see the warhammer. I love the way it looks, except for the shoulder mounted srm6.

Edited by Larry Headrick, 18 December 2011 - 09:11 PM.

[Marxman]

When it comes to the Unseens its not much of a problem to redesign them. The Problem is to design them in a way people can live with. For some only the originals do, for some the project phoenix designs are good enough , some dont care and some would like to redesign them again. I did so many redesigns of the warhammer and marauder over the years and i always posted them on forums and i alweays got good AND bad reactions. You cant make everyone happy.
I personaly like some unseen designs alot, especialy the Warhammer, Rifleman and the Marauder. However i like some PP designs better than tthe originals. I really like the Ostmechs in PP alot better than the unseen versions, same goes with the Marauder II. And my favorite design of all time is the PP Warhammer IIC.
It looks mean and powerfull imho and when it comes to specs its extremly good. Standart fusion engine, endo structure, enough heatsinks to fire most weapons all the time, Increasing damage output the closer the enemy is because of the different ammonitions for the atm launchers wich are equiped with artemis so most of the damage actually arrives at the target. ERPPCs with long range but without minimum range. Its just an extremly good mech. Well armored, case, speed is good for an assault. Once ammo is running out you still have the PPCs...its evil.

When it comes to mwo i could live with the Designs from Project Phoenix or completly new Designs by Flying Debris. I just hope those iconic
Mechs are in the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

I actually wanted both option 4 and 1 in that order.The Reseen are specifically for Jihad redesigns but will work. I would love to have the original but I understand the headache that comes with it, so a redesign of the Unseen that is at least giving a nod to the original art is the best of both worlds in my mind.

[Cyttorak]

Apparently the Ostscout, Ostroc and Ostsol have recently been declared as re-seen. This was an announcement from Catalyst's BT line developer (um...or someone equally "official"). Of the original unseen (from both TRO 3025 and 3055), I believe those are the only ones whose images are able to be used without Harmony Gold's permisson.
So if the devs wanted to use any of those, they could do so without (much) worry...not that it matters, since they've already said anything used would go thru Alex's treatment.

[feor]

Artanis Creed, on 16 December 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

Timberwolf got it's IS designation cause their computers didnt recognize the design...and kept switching back an forth... Only similarities i can see are RJ legs and an ovoid shaped torso... the legs on all 3 mechs are different as are the Torso sections... course u can say that most RJ mechs look alike cause they have RJ legs and most have ovoid torsos... (Stalker for another example)

But my point originally was that people were saying that the Timberwolf/MAD CAT and the Marauder were the same thing...which they are clearly not.

Fluff wise almost every birdwalker mech is actually based on either the Marauder, Catapult, or Locust, IIRC. The Locust was the first in 2499, then the Catapult in 2561, then the Marauder "perfected it" in the early 2600s.

And if you look at the Succession Wars and Star League era mechs you can see it.

Out of 3025 we have the Locust, Catapult and Marauder. The oldest and most common. Of Star League era mechs we have the Hussar (which looks like a Locust with arms and a Marauder gun (Large Laser in its case), The Crab (built 2719 with obvious Marauder inspiration), the King Crab (again, obviously based on the Marauder, and likely lead to the concept of the Marauder II), and the Thug, which is the odd man out, built in 2572 its obviously a stutter step along the road from Catapult to Marauder, where they tried to mate the Catapult's movement system with the Warhammer's torso.

Also worth Noting that the Stalker is NOT a birdwalker mech It's just very front heavy, so it's been designed to be permanently "leaning backwards". Here's a picture of the mini from Camospecs that illustrates that:

Quote

Apparently the Ostscout, Ostroc and Ostsol have recently been declared as re-seen. This was an announcement from Catalyst's BT line developer (um...or someone equally "official"). Of the original unseen (from both TRO 3025 and 3055), I believe those are the only ones whose images are able to be used without Harmony Gold's permisson.
So if the devs wanted to use any of those, they could do so without (much) worry...not that it matters, since they've already said anything used would go thru Alex's treatment.

So, they finally realized that there isn't a court in the land that would agree this:

looks anything at all like this:

Edited by feor, 19 December 2011 - 09:58 AM.

[God of War]

I would be total satisfied with the Projekt Phoenix Deisgns. If the are not used i´m also totaly down
with Alex Iglesias´Versions as long as they are at least a lkittle resembling to the Orignals/projekt Phoenix-Designs.
I dont want to see classic mechs ingame and have to wonder and ask myslef *** this pilar of steel could be...

[Atlas3060]

I trust in Flyingdebris' direction, continue with your glorious work.

[Tannhauser Gate]

PGI and Flying Debris clearly have an idea of how the mechs should look. A lot of designs are questionable like some of the proto mechs, mechs heavily inspired from other anime genres , or simply ill-conceived mechs. There will be quite a few that even FlyDebris cant make look like cool military hardware so they wont make the cut. I ok with that.

Edited by lakedaemon, 19 December 2011 - 11:10 AM.