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#21 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:34 AM

View PostDaZur, on 09 December 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Didn't wind up with what you expected?

Clearly you've never been married... :P

Don't all you MW:Women get all irate! If you you asked my wife this question she'd respond the same way about me.

Clearly one of us is delusional... :)


:)
I got more than I could have ever asked for... took 20 years for us to realize it, but man these last 5 years :D

What I got right now in game... well that's the F2P, What I paid for, has not arrived yet... :rolleyes:

#22 Lostdragon

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostSandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Now that sounds a lot more reasonable all the way around. It just seems that lately we've devolved into 3 groups
12 mans
premades
pugs

All 3 seem to be at odds with the others especially when it comes to balancing issues. Then there's also this mentality that 12 mans are the "competitive" side of things. I don't understand that one. CW isn't going to care whether you're a pug or 12 man. It will have the same amount of impact on the metaverse


Most people that play 12 mans do all three of those things though. I think you have to do all three in order to see the big picture when it comes to balance. People view 12s as the competitive scene because it is different from pug games in the same way that joining a bowling league is different from going to the alley with a few friends for fun. You may want to beat your buddies, but you were not serious enough about bowling to organize a group and practice together then compete together.

There is competition in pugs and a lot of people in the matches I play are very good, but a pug group is not capable of the level of coordination and cooperation a team of 12 can have. With a predefined leader who sets up the drop deck, defines a strategy, and leads the team you can do things a oug never could. But probably the most important difference is that in 12s you get to play more than one game together. If something is not working you get the chance to change it up and try something new. Another thing is you may play 10 games in a row against the same team. That really spurs competition because if you are losing to them then you really want to beat them and if you are winning you want to dominate. That is why 12s are competitive.

Also, to me a competitive team is one where your spot is not guaranteed, you have to earn it and you can lose it.

Edited by Lostdragon, 10 December 2013 - 06:44 AM.


#23 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:56 AM

The second scenario sounds already utopic - how did you get so much written out in chat?
Real chat looks like this:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-fubar-report/
Spoiler


#24 Diego Angelus

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostSandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

I get that. I asked why anyone implies the game is only "competitive" while playing in a 12 man and suggesting that a player should use that method to drop into the game as being the only "competitive" way to play the game?

Somewhere along the way it seems a schism developed for 12 mans. The players that drop in 12 mans seem to think it's the only way to have a "competitive" game and that this small niche of the player base should be what's used to determine balance in the game. I'm pointing at you individually but you can see it all throughout the forums. The majority of "op" threads are originating from 12 man groups while the rest of the player base disagrees for the most part. Naybe the 12 mans should realize they are a top tier level of play but also a very small portion of the population. I'd suggest dropping into PUGs once in a while to get a real perspective on how the game is balanced.
PGI cannot, and should not in my opinion, balance the game based on the opinions of a very small portion of the player population. It doesn't work like that.

One of the latest bandwagons was arty strikes.
"They're op"
"No they aren't. They're rarely even used"
"Well they're op in 12 mans because they're coordinated."
"So that means because they're being used in unison and great coordination they're op?"
"Yea"
"So the other 95% of players that don't play in the environment should have them nerfed because they're "op" when used with great teamwork and coordination?"
"Yea"
"......"

and that is almost verbatim how that conversation played out in that particular thread. Can you see how that isn't op?


So you assume that those players never pug If it is devastating in 12s Imagine what it can do in pugs. Balancing according to pugs is just not good enough and doesn't make any sense.

#25 Almond Brown

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:34 AM

View PostSneakyBastd, on 09 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:


Lol. Because 12 assault poptarts per side spamming airstrikes is what everyone hoped this game would be.


So your solution would be to remove Assault Mechs, Jump Jets and Arty and Air strikes? Sounds like a fun game you got there. .<|:lol:

View PostSandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Again, I ask why do you propose that someone have to play in a 12 man? There's plenty of smaller groups to play with and get much better teamwork usually


The choice is 4 or 12. Folks can try to Sync drop to get an 8 or a fluke 12 but the odds are not good. Yes 4 can be a nice Team, but if the other 8 are not on-board, best you can hope for is that they do some damage before your 4 needs to try and finish off what is left of the other 12. :P

#26 giganova

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:37 AM

Awesome post. What I wouldn't give for proper integrated voice communications...

#27 Sandpit

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostDiego Angelus, on 10 December 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:


So you assume that those players never pug If it is devastating in 12s Imagine what it can do in pugs. Balancing according to pugs is just not good enough and doesn't make any sense.

Uhm, it's not a big thing in PUGs. Never has been. That's my point. It only affects 12 mans

Yes, balancing according to PUGs is the exact way it should begin. That's your largest portion of the player population. You balance to that, not the small niches.

Weapon A does 15 points of damage.
In PUGs (the majority, remember that it's important) it works well, plays out balanced, and is a nice feature that serves some useful purposes of knocking players off of cap points, nailing campers, and making grouped up stationary targets rethink that kind of strategy.
In 12mans (a small niche of the player population) it gets used by 10-12 mechs in extreme coordination and conditions. It is because of the coordination inherent in 12mans that causes it to become a real pain. It does no more damage than in the firs scenario. It does, however, get spammed more in 12mans which causes an accumulative effect and causes more damage to be done due to coordination effectiveness.

Now lets say PUG numbers are 10,000
And lets say 12man numbers are 5% of that at 500

So because 500 players out of 10,000 have an issue with the weapon, not because of its damage or effectiveness, but because of what happens when it gets used in a coordinated manner in 12mans, they should nerf it?
If they do then it becomes "effective" and "balanced" to use but only in 12man drops. For the other 95% of the player population it's not useless because it simply isn't effective enough.
You CANNOT balance a game according to small niche portions of the player population.

If you want to play 12mans that's awesome. Go for it. There are perks and there are downsides to this though. One of those downsides is your own creation. Extremely well-coordinated teams that are min/maxed for the absolute best performance that can come out of said coordination.

Here's an idea, if you're dropping in 12mans, contact that enemy you're synch dropping with, or get together with all the 12mans and make a gentleman's agreement not to use it. Or join a league that has rules like this. Or don't drop in 12mans. Or ask at the beginning of your match not to use it. But don't ask for the rest of the game to completely cater to a small niche. It just can't be done.

#28 Davers

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:19 AM

View Postasdbnmrty, on 09 December 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

What I wanted:
Lance Leader: Alright all, Company Leader has marked E4 for attack. Lance 1 scout ahead, all others form up on me.
Lance 1: Spotted enemy mechs at E4. Catapult and Atlas have stacked LRMs and providing indirect fire on main battle line. Jaeger has Light ACs providing direct fire support on main battle... wait, I also see a Raven spotting with a TAG up on the ridgeline. If we come in through E5, we'll come in from thier blind spot.
Lance Leader: Great, Lance 1 activate ECM and get it close to those LRM mechs. Lance 2, move past E5 to flank right as marked on battlegrid. Lance 3, your with me. I'll charge in and draw thier attention, I'll need you behind me as fire support.
Lance 1: EMC on, moving into position.
Lance 2: I see it on battlegrid, moving in.
Lance 3: I'm behind you, lead the way.
*Lance makes makes thier approach
Lance Leader: I see them. *fires PPCs* GOT IT! ATLAS side torso out, his LRMs are down.
Lance 3: Catapult is targeting us. Missle lock!
Lance Leader: Tighten up on me, activate AMS. Lance 1 get on that Catapult and jam his targeting!
*AC rounds crash into hull*
Lance Leader: I've lost weapon systems! *explosions* I can't see sh**. Lance 3 lay some fire on the Jaeger, I'm getting to cover!
*Lance 3 unloads a hail of laser fire
Lance 3: I'm overheating!
Lance Leader: Flush it with coolent and keep firing! I'm almost to cover!
*CRITICAL DAMAGE
Lance Leader: AGHHHH UGH.
Lance 2: I'm behind him, lining up an alpha... YES rear hit! He's down, he's down!
Lance 1: Catapult is making a run for it! He jumpjetted over the hill.
Lance Leader: I dont have LOS, target him.
Lance 1: Targeted.
Lance 2: There he is, I got missle lock!
Lance Leader: Me too! Fire, fire, fire!
*Enemy destroyed
Lance Leader: Great job everyone, Company Leader is requestion fire supp....
*INCOMING MISSLES
Lance Leader: What?
Lance 1: The Raven has you TAGed! I don't have a clear shot, Lance Leader get to cover!
Lance Leader: I'm too far! AMS was knocked out in our approach. I can't... I...
Lance 3: EJECT LANCE LEADER EJECT!
Lance Leader: AGRRGHRHRH
*Explosions*

What I got:

*silence* Distant sound of AC/missile fire. Bravo lance dies within 2 minutes without a word or reason.


*Logs out and goes to website
-NEW MC SALE
-Community Warfare will take 6 months to fully be integrated... which we will start sometime next year!
-Clan mechs? We are working on it! Pre-Order now and get early access or wait 3 months to be released for C-Bills.... 1 at a time... every month. Tune in after 4 months... for the announcement of when they will eventually be release!
-New module cool module... 10% movespeed when walking up hills! *cough*
-Balance changes: Small lasers increase 0.000000001 damage. PPCs generate 10 additional heat beyond shooting 0. Flamers now have ghost heat when firing more then 12.
-We are releasing UI 2.0 soon! Do the same thing you did before, but in a different format. 1 year in the making!
-4th person view has been added in with aim assist! This will help new players understand how the movement of thier mech works!

FTFY

#29 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 09 December 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Someone doesn't play 12s :lol:
Mmmm, yeah... I do. He's not far off. Granted my unit doesn't often do random 12 mans, where we get 12 men grouped, drop and we get what we get, but when we do, here's what I've seen, darn near EVERY time:

90-100 ton assaults x6
45 ton or less fast moving scout/harassers x6

And it seems like everyone of them, and I mean EVERY GOD DAMNED ONE OF THEM has air strike AND artillery strike.

The 'competitive' drop 'meta' is EXTREMELY bland...

So... He's not far off...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 10 December 2013 - 09:22 AM.


#30 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:36 AM

My favorite is:

Napoleon Wannabe Pug Company Commander: Hey, you @$#%@%@#$ guys need to go over there and kill that 'mech!!!

I've got a macro that works 99.999% of the time that follows up with:

Question 1: Which guys?
Question 2: Where's "over there"? There's a lot of "there" out there...
Question 3: Which 'mech? There's more than 1 we're fighting...

#31 Trauglodyte

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:49 AM

Welcome to the wide world of PUGs. Fast mechs think that it is a great idea to use that speed to get to the enemy first while everyone else thinks that they're l33t and can carry the team. If you go to help a teammate, they'll use your as a means to draw fire so that they can escape. And, there is always that 1 or 2 people on your team that complains to the other team for <insert reason that they won>. Ironically, if most of those players ever got up to the higher end of the ELO and routinely got obliterated by the PPC/AC combo by players that actually know how to fully utilize them, those people would probably quit and the boards would be a lot more quiet.

#32 PropagandaWar

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:54 AM

View PostSneakyBastd, on 09 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:


Lol. Because 12 assault poptarts per side spamming airstrikes is what everyone hoped this game would be.

I agree. What I saw in RHOD was the most boring pointless easymode drivel one can have. Look Weee Im jumping and shooting into the side of the hill with everyone else. Weeee. Lets take borqued game mechanics weee. Were awesome Weeee. Instead of RHOD they should've called it Jump Turret online.

#33 Diego Angelus

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostSandpit, on 10 December 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Uhm, it's not a big thing in PUGs. Never has been. That's my point. It only affects 12 mans

Yes, balancing according to PUGs is the exact way it should begin. That's your largest portion of the player population. You balance to that, not the small niches.

Weapon A does 15 points of damage.
In PUGs (the majority, remember that it's important) it works well, plays out balanced, and is a nice feature that serves some useful purposes of knocking players off of cap points, nailing campers, and making grouped up stationary targets rethink that kind of strategy.
In 12mans (a small niche of the player population) it gets used by 10-12 mechs in extreme coordination and conditions. It is because of the coordination inherent in 12mans that causes it to become a real pain. It does no more damage than in the firs scenario. It does, however, get spammed more in 12mans which causes an accumulative effect and causes more damage to be done due to coordination effectiveness.

Now lets say PUG numbers are 10,000
And lets say 12man numbers are 5% of that at 500

So because 500 players out of 10,000 have an issue with the weapon, not because of its damage or effectiveness, but because of what happens when it gets used in a coordinated manner in 12mans, they should nerf it?
If they do then it becomes "effective" and "balanced" to use but only in 12man drops. For the other 95% of the player population it's not useless because it simply isn't effective enough.
You CANNOT balance a game according to small niche portions of the player population.

If you want to play 12mans that's awesome. Go for it. There are perks and there are downsides to this though. One of those downsides is your own creation. Extremely well-coordinated teams that are min/maxed for the absolute best performance that can come out of said coordination.

Here's an idea, if you're dropping in 12mans, contact that enemy you're synch dropping with, or get together with all the 12mans and make a gentleman's agreement not to use it. Or join a league that has rules like this. Or don't drop in 12mans. Or ask at the beginning of your match not to use it. But don't ask for the rest of the game to completely cater to a small niche. It just can't be done.


So you are saying that if arty is OP in 12s it shouldn't be rebalanced because pugs are having fun with it ? But that is just not true because pugs rarely use it (me included) because its too expensive to bring it in every drop if it was more accessible then we would face same thing as in 12s. In all games pubs look up to best competitive players and same goes here If its balanced for them pugs are just going to profit from that by having better games overall and when you put it other way around we are going to have problem on both sides.

#34 Sandpit

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostDiego Angelus, on 10 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:


So you are saying that if arty is OP in 12s it shouldn't be rebalanced because pugs are having fun with it ? But that is just not true because pugs rarely use it (me included) because its too expensive to bring it in every drop if it was more accessible then we would face same thing as in 12s. In all games pubs look up to best competitive players and same goes here If its balanced for them pugs are just going to profit from that by having better games overall and when you put it other way around we are going to have problem on both sides.

No, I'm saying arty isn't "op" just because it gets spammed in unison with exceptional coordination. There's a difference in "op" and "those guys use it really well and effectively"".
Being a pug has absolutely no bearing on the cost of a module. You earn the same c-bills as those that play 12mans. There's no difference in the economy. It's not used as effectively in pugs simply because you don't have the same amount of teamwork and coordination in pugs as 12mans. period.

Games do NOT balance to the upper 1%. If you believe that, then I don't know what to tell you. That would be no different than saying ok out of 1000 players 100 niche players find that increasing the cost of a module from 40k to 100k is not an issue because that 1% has more free money in the game because they've played longer and accumulated more of a stockpile. There's absolutely no difference.

You're still working under the premise that something is "op" when it isn't. "OP" is when something just absolutely is a game breaker for the entire community. LRMs targeting nothing but the heads of enemy mechs was OP. Arty strikes being used in unison by a well coordinated team is not "op".

#35 DocBach

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:09 AM

yeah, an actual in game voip would do wonders for pug life

#36 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostSandpit, on 10 December 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

..
Games do NOT balance to the upper 1%. If you believe that, then I don't know what to tell you.
...
Probably the only thing I had issue with in your statement is was this sentence, specifically when applied to PGI.

So many nerfs have occurred, apparently, due PGI's lack of a spine and willingness to capitulate game features to quell the hew and cry of a vocal minority, re: locking grouping down to 4 or less, or 12, or the gauss charge up kludge, or the COMPLETE removal of knock down...

Need I go on?

Anyway, everything else you said I pretty much agree with.

View PostDocBach, on 10 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

yeah, an actual in game voip would do wonders for pug life
I dunno... I'm not sure I want PGI building VOIP into the MWO client.

It makes me... nervous, for some reason...

#37 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostDocBach, on 10 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

yeah, an actual in game voip would do wonders for pug life

Though the game could use it...

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Probably the only thing I had issue with in your statement is was this sentence, specifically when applied to PGI.

So many nerfs have occurred, apparently, due PGI's lack of a spine and willingness to capitulate game features to quell the hew and cry of a vocal minority, re: locking grouping down to 4 or less, or 12, or the gauss charge up kludge, or the COMPLETE removal of knock down...

Need I go on?

Anyway, everything else you said I pretty much agree with.

I dunno... I'm not sure I want PGI building VOIP into the MWO client.

It makes me... nervous, for some reason...

Dememto has a good point... I can see Ghost Mute used to keep good teams from communicating properly! :lol:

#38 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:41 AM

View PostDocBach, on 10 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

yeah, an actual in game voip would do wonders for pug life


You inspired me. Please don't knock my PS skeeeels, I'm still learning :lol:

Posted Image

Edited by Fierostetz, 10 December 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#39 Adiuvo

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Mmmm, yeah... I do. He's not far off. Granted my unit doesn't often do random 12 mans, where we get 12 men grouped, drop and we get what we get, but when we do, here's what I've seen, darn near EVERY time:

90-100 ton assaults x6
45 ton or less fast moving scout/harassers x6

And it seems like everyone of them, and I mean EVERY GOD DAMNED ONE OF THEM has air strike AND artillery strike.

The 'competitive' drop 'meta' is EXTREMELY bland...

So... He's not far off...

Half a team of assault mechs is nowhere near a full team of 12 assault mechs. There are very few teams that do that kind of garbage and the ones that do are pretty bad. I could name names if you want but since their members are active posters here I'd rather not stir the pot. Either way, 12 assault mechs is rare.

Most good teams are running some kind of variation of 3/3/3/3, typically because this is how a tourney drop weight works out at around the 760 ton mark. Lords do that, Steel Jags does that, Swords does that... you're going to see variations sometimes with perhaps 4 assaults and 2 mediums, or 2 assaults and 5 heavies depending on the weight being practiced, but it's never a full 12 of assaults.

And yep, everyone has an arti/air strike. I don't really see a problem with those. They prevent stalemates and require constant movement. Basically they make the fight more dynamic.

If you don't like that 12s are fully 'meta' mechs I'm not sure what to say. I play 12s because I want to fight with the best team, fighting the best pilots, who are trying their best. I don't want to see joke builds or unoptimized mechs in 12s. If I do I know that person isn't trying their hardest to win and if you aren't trying to win, 12s isn't a fun place.

#40 AC

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:



Anyway, everything else you said I pretty much agree with.

I dunno... I'm not sure I want PGI building VOIP into the MWO client.

It makes me... nervous, for some reason...


Why? They will only charge you 100mc an hour to use it! What a deal!

PS> Buy more paint jobs!



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