74 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

I love my locusts. Why people hate it?

Edited by Nightshade24, 02 January 2014 - 04:40 AM.

[CMetz]

1st Somerset Strikers Sourcebook... an attempt to canonize as much as they could from the cartoon. Don't get me wrong... I enjoy the fact that there was a cartoon, and it was mildly entertaining. (Apparently all clanners look like guys from Scandinavian metal bands) Also, max tech contains a lot of optional rules that, while they can add some fun to the game, for the most part they aren't needed or played often. For my money, level 1 tech is the best true measurement of a battletech player. The reason? Everything is balanced and there are no weapons that can headcap you from outside 9 hexes. (AC20 is the only one in the game that can fully headcap you)

That being said... mechs that make me scream... I hate to say it, but its generally the spider/assassin cheese lance. Yes, spiders are just as annoying in tabletop as they are in this game. The only thing about tabletop is that you can generally kick a leg off a spider within 3 attempts.

[Escef]

CMetz, on 02 January 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

For my money, level 1 tech is the best true measurement of a battletech player. The reason? Everything is balanced and...

No, stop it, you're killin' me!

Everything is balanced in the old Level 1 (now called Introductory) Level tech? The AC2 and AC5 are JUNK.

[Fusea]

I see you haven't played much table top. Or at least haven't tried using anything armed with an AC/2. So lets look at some numbers, the AC/2, weighs in at 7 tons with ammo, produces 1 heat an generates 2 damage. But It has the longest range in the game using level 1 rules, and 45 shots per ton of ammo. So you have absolutely no reason to not spray it like a hose every round. And you will have plenty of time to do that as well, you out range LRMs by 90 meters, PPCs by 180 meters, and large lasers by 270 meters. Large lasers start where your medium range ends, so you could count on getting off lots of shots with no danger of retribution by simply strolling backward. And with the huge range you could count on those shots being fairly accurate. So it was strike first... through Sixth, and if your opponent had anything other than a PPC or LRMs, it worked out a lot worse for them, cause they had to Back in TT there was this lovely little VTOL called the Warrior H-7 (http://www.sarna.net...(Combat_Vehicle) if you're curios). It had an ac/2, and no one cared about the rest. Cause it was fast, completely ignored terrain, and it was cheeeaaaaap. You could buy 3 for the cost of one urbie, and if you are using BV, you could buy 3 for every 2 cans. They make the Spider look like a wretched old man cause they could cruise almost as fast as it runs and you can never ever kick them (unless the pilot is a complete *****). And just in case we forgot, you can't shoot them either. On a 2 map table with any kind of support, you can't ever get close enough, they just fly away.

As for the ac/5, those are mostly confined to the medium tonnage rides. And for good reason. They are long range and low heat. It gives me a weapon with the range of a PPC, but less heat than any other long range weapon in the game. It's hugely consistent too, all 5 pts of damage to one location, unlike missiles which have spread and missile hits table to contend with. And 20 shots is plenty for most games. Again, hose it around like it's going out of style, you don't have a reason not to. In the medium weight class it is a king, since it allows for more weapons to be fired with less heat, and rolling more times gives you a better chance to hit. For the sake of comparison, lets look at 2 mechs close in size, one with a ppc and one with an ac/5. It just so happens they are one page apart. We have the griffin and the shadowhawk, both are the same weight, with the same amount of armor and similar movement characteristics. And in anything other than a broad flat plain with infinite site lines, the Shadowhawk will typically win. The Shad is always heat neutral, until it starts taking damage it cannot overheat, and even then what heat there is tends to be easy to manage. The Griffin is nowhere close if he fires both his weapons he's already starting with heat debt and he hasn't even moved. And since mechs with similar speed are always faster on offense than withdrawl, the Griffin can't stop the Shad from bringing the secondary weapons to bear. Once you get in close, the ac again benefits from reduced heat, cause your never not going to fire it range penalties be damned. And again, that ppc comes with a difficult choice, lrms are useless at short range, that penalty is huge, but firing the ppc leaves you very little heat to maneuver.

TLDR; Light autocannons give you the ability to use volume of fire instead of quality of fire, and that is good for the guys in the medium weight range.

[Escef]

Fusea, on 05 January 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

TLDR; Light autocannons give you the ability to use volume of fire instead of quality of fire, and that is good for the guys in the medium weight range.

Maybe if you use some kind of optional/house rule that lets you fire them more than once a round. The AC2, for example, has a mere 3 hexes better range than LRMs, An LRM5 and enough ammo to fire as long as an AC2 with a ton of ammo is 4 tons. 4 vs 7. Did I mention the LRM will do better damage? And I can't think of a single medium mech with an AC5 that would not be better off with a PPC or Large Laser. Additionally, PPCs and Large Lasers are not ammo dependent.

[DevlinCognito]

I played a LOT of battletech, and as much as I appreciated the AC2, a Large Laser or PPC is virtually always better (Warrior being the only real exception as pointed out). All these theoretical scenarios about 1 vs 1 reversing and keeping distance always fall down unless fighting on a completely flat limitless map with no map edges. Used as a second line support weapon though, I liked it.

[Fusea]

Its actually on the flat limitless map that the ppc and large laser have their biggest advantage. As pointed out above, most mediums don't carry the heat sinks to fight and maneuver high heat weapons. So an ac5 gives you some ranged punch and doesn't stop you from using the back up weapons at he same time, or maneuvering. Btech is all about position and maneuver so a long range low heat weapon can really be beneficial.

[Escef]

Fusea, on 05 January 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Its actually on the flat limitless map that the ppc and large laser have their biggest advantage. As pointed out above, most mediums don't carry the heat sinks to fight and maneuver high heat weapons. So an ac5 gives you some ranged punch and doesn't stop you from using the back up weapons at he same time, or maneuvering. Btech is all about position and maneuver so a long range low heat weapon can really be beneficial.

What you are overlooking is that the PPC also hits twice as hard as an AC5. Twin AC5 is 16 tons, not counting ammo. 16 tons for the same amount of firepower you get for 7 tons from a PPC. With no ammo liabilities.

At Introtech levels there are 4 mechs under 60 tons that carry an AC5. The Sentinel and Clint, at 40 tons with good movement capabilities, would both be better off dropping the AC5 for either a Large Laser or PPC and extra heat sinks, The Shadowhawk is infamous for under-performing (if it hits with everything, including all of its missiles, it still is not capable of triggering a piloting check). And the Wolverine, which unsurprisingly is known for being a great mech provided you use the 6M version, which trades the AC for a Large Laser, Medium Laser, and extra heat sinks. There is no mech sporting an AC5 that cannot be made better by removing the AC5 and replacing it with a LL or PPC. Hell, even the 3D Marauder is significantly better than the 3R, and that's despite the fact that it can be overheated with almost no effort.

Were it up to me to relaunch the game I'd seriously rework the ACs to make them usable. Drop the Light AC to 4 tons and 12 hexes range for 5 damage, Medium AC to 6 tons and 15 hexes range for 8 damage, the Heavy AC would just be the AC10 with range expanded to 18 hexes, and the Assault cannon would be an AC20 with range extended to 21 hexes. (I'd probably also tinker with the heat and shots/ton of the 2 bigger cannons to balance out the range boost).

[dal10]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Pike

i use the lighter ac/s on support vehicles like the pike.

you can't beat things like that for CHEAP fire support. a lance of those in a garrison for the cost of a 50 ton mech. that gives you 12 ac/2s backing up another lance of light/medium vehicles and a mech lance. they won't kill a mech on their own but it is enough to tip the balance in a fight.

[Escef]

dal10, on 05 January 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

they won't kill a mech on their own but it is enough to tip the balance in a fight.

They will also annoy people to no end.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Damn. Some of you guys are hating on some decent mechs... I never cared for the Spider or the Assassin. Too much speed not enough bang IMO.

[Fusea]

Somehow, I can never seem to get quote to work. Anyway Escef, Taking the 2 Wolverines you mentioned, the stock 6r and the 6m you prefer. Lets compare, all of this makes some assumptions btw, namely that all your weapons hit for alpha an that you were at least walking to get into range.

Alpha Strike.....6r.....6m
Damage........... 22.....30
Heat output......9.....19
Heat sinks.......12.....14
Heat phase.....-3.....+5

So yes, the 6m has a decided advantage in alpha strike. But remember, unless you're absurdly lucky, you're not going to breach anything. And look at the difference in heat, the 6m is at the point where he's already having issues with reduced maneuverability (+5 heat points). The 6r at this point can still walk 5, giving a+2 against your shooting, at the cost of +1 for him, this is very important. Effectively, his accuracy improved,and yours just got worse. If you assume both mechs were running from the word go and not walking, it gets worse. the 6m is now at +7 heat. One more point of build up and he is suffering a +1 to hit and a -1 to walking speed. As the battle goes on, it will only get worse. The AC variant that 'under preforms' is going to be incapable of running his heat into the red without a lot of jump jet use.

Now I hear what your saying, no one is that stupid, he would manage his weapons to control his heat better. And I agree. So to manage his heat and maintain a neutral profile, he can fire the large laser, the srm 6, and one medium laser for a total of 25 pts of damage per turn. And of course, if he truly wants to remain heat neutral, he's firing the laser only one out of 3 rounds. At this point the much maligned 6r actually has a slight edge in fire power. 66pts over 3 turns for the 6r, vs the 6m's 65 pts in the same time frame.

And this is why Btech in the table top is a balance of risk vs reward. You can certainly risk the penalties for he higher heat, but any attempt to mange that heat once it's there are going to drop your damage per shooting phase. And from a stand point of heat to damage, the large laser is actually the worst offender, it's heat matches its damage, while the smaller lasers and the srm launcher have damage values that exceed their heat production. So while the large laser or PPC (also a high heat offender) seem like better weapons, attempts to manage their massive heat just make them... ok.

Again, this is only for intro rules. Once double heatsinks are available it changes the numbers, but the autocannon is still a workable solution (though I admit to ditching it pretty much like clockwork if I'm playing level 2 rules and I can get the heat sorted out so a large or ER large doesn't ******* in my own rear end).

The real worst weapon in level 1 rules? SRM 2. Double the weight and space of a med laser for... slightly less damage alot less consistency and one less heat? Really?

Edit cause I can't spell or format.

Edited by Fusea, 07 January 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Escef]

Fusea, on 07 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Somehow, I can never seem to get quote to work.

You click on the "Quote" button at the bottom of the post, is that difficult?

Fusea, on 07 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Anyway Escef, Taking the 2 Wolverines you mentioned, the stock 6r and the 6m you prefer. Lets compare, all of this makes some assumptions btw, namely that all your weapons hit for alpha an that you were at least walking to get into range.

Alpha Strike.....6r.....6m
Damage........... 22.....30
Heat output......9.....19
Heat sinks.......12.....14
Heat phase.....-3.....+5

So yes, the 6m has a decided advantage in alpha strike.

And from here on out your entire argument revolves around the Alpha strike, which is, well...

Fusea, on 07 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Now I hear what your saying, no one is that stupid, he would manage his weapons to control his heat better.

And I would say just that.

Fusea, on 07 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

And I agree. So to manage his heat and maintain a neutral profile...

You put forward a very questionable procedure. You assume that every weapon is going to be in range or a valid option. I'm not going to fire the Mediums and SRMs outside of 9 hexes, which puts the 9M heat neutral even if it goes for a full jump, and provided we are within 15 hexes doing more damage than the 6R. Up close, the 6M pilot can drop the Large Laser completely, dealing the same damage as the 6R, and only overheating on a full jump. And still, it maintains the option of that extra 8 points of firepower.

Your argument in favor of the AC is a horrible contrivance of bad firing patterns focusing on the wrong things.

Just as an example of how silly this is, one could replace an AC5 with 2 LRM5, a ton of ammo, a Medium Laser, and 3 heat sinks. At this point one has even better range, more damage, largely equal heat efficiency, and the option to overheat for yet more damage still.

As much as there is no real reason to mount an AC2 or 5 on a mech in favor of a LL or PPC, there is even less reason to mount those cannons over a mixture of LRMs and MLs. Just none.

Seriously, at IntroTech levels, try running Mad-3Ds instead of 3Rs, and Wolverine 6Ms instead of 6Rs.

There is really no point in being an apologist for the AC2 and AC5. They're just plain bad.

[Bront]

Escef, on 05 January 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

What you are overlooking is that the PPC also hits twice as hard as an AC5. Twin AC5 is 16 tons, not counting ammo. 16 tons for the same amount of firepower you get for 7 tons from a PPC. With no ammo liabilities.

That's a great argument for why you should avoid dual AC5s (AC10 or PPC with HS would be better use of the weight, or even an AC20), but for a mech that can only use 16 tons total of weapons/ammo/HS, you could instead mount an AC5, an LRM5, and a few medium lasers. (My personal variant of the Shadowhawk drops the SRM2 for 2 MLs) which gives you some reasonable long range punch where only the LRM isn't useable at short range.

AC2s are pretty bad in almost every case. AC5? There's a niche where they're effective with mixed weaponry due to heat issues, particularly in 3025 tech.

Now, in the DHS era? Yes, AC5 isn't that exciting (The UAC5 is nice though), because you start with 20 HS, so energy weapons got some extended love. (On a side note, the clan UAC2 for 5 tons is interesting, or would be if clan LRMs weren't sick)

[Escef]

Bront, on 07 January 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

... for a mech that can only use 16 tons total of weapons/ammo/HS, you could instead mount an AC5, an LRM5, and a few medium lasers. (My personal variant of the Shadowhawk drops the SRM2 for 2 MLs) which gives you some reasonable long range punch where only the LRM isn't useable at short range.

Or you could junk the AC5 for a PPC, another Medium Laser, and an extra heat sink.As much or more punch up close and hits harder at range. Or you could junk the AC5 for more LRMs, an ML or two, and some heat sinks. At introTech level there is nothing the AC5 does that cannot be better accomplished by other weapon systems.

Bront, on 07 January 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

(On a side note, the clan UAC2 for 5 tons is interesting, or would be if clan LRMs weren't sick)

Yeah, Clan LRMs, ERPPCs, LPLs, and Gauss rather obsoleted other Clan weapons, and even preemptively obsoleted the newer ones as well.

Edited by Escef, 08 January 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[wanderer]

Thom Frankfurt, on 05 January 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

Damn. Some of you guys are hating on some decent mechs... I never cared for the Spider or the Assassin. Too much speed not enough bang IMO.

The Assassin is a prime example of trying to do too much on a small chassis. 7/11/7 with an SRM 6 would have been peachy. You could even strap two LRM 5's on it (with one ton of ammo) and have a nimbler, lighter-armored Valkyrie.

Instead, it tries to do both, which limits it to specialty missile ammo to really get the most out of it's launchers. That being said, a Star League-era Assassin armed with Thunder and Inferno rounds was a minefield-laying, soft-target torching pain in the rear, and underhanded tricks like that are what earned it the name in the first place- along with hunting scouts, it's other decent role. It's a 'Mech that doesn't deal well with most other 'Mechs, and that puts it on the bench for most players who only throw giant robots around.

[Arahantius]

Marack Drock, on 12 December 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I'd just get a Twolf and a Battlemaster and boom I win.

Very presumptuous, but then he is a very presumptuous person.

[Nathan Foxbane]

A 'Mech that makes me want to scream? Wolf Trap. We already had the Centurion CN9-D. Why Draconis Combine? WHY?! What possible reason could there be to make a CN9-D that had less armor and weighed 5 tons less?

[Thom Frankfurt]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

The Assassin is a prime example of trying to do too much on a small chassis. 7/11/7 with an SRM 6 would have been peachy. You could even strap two LRM 5's on it (with one ton of ammo) and have a nimbler, lighter-armored Valkyrie.

Instead, it tries to do both, which limits it to specialty missile ammo to really get the most out of it's launchers. That being said, a Star League-era Assassin armed with Thunder and Inferno rounds was a minefield-laying, soft-target torching pain in the rear, and underhanded tricks like that are what earned it the name in the first place- along with hunting scouts, it's other decent role. It's a 'Mech that doesn't deal well with most other 'Mechs, and that puts it on the bench for most players who only throw giant robots around.

Very nice insight to that blight on the Battletech Universe. I think that the true root of my dislike for that mech is it's weight. I've never been able to write up a decent 40 tonner. I'm not sure if it's the math involved in the customizing/creation process or whatnot, or even the way I design mechs.

40 tons is just a weight I try to avoid at all cost. Now if you give or take 5 tons, I can come up with something nasty.

[Spokes]

The Assassin is one of those 'Mechs that makes more sense if you step away from Battle Values and tonnage limits and start looking more at the universe and the original intent of the design.

Though it was never produced in significant numbers, the Assassin was intended to replace Wasps and Stingers in SLDF recon lances. It is faster than those two 'Mechs, better armed and armored and has a greater jump capacity. Battle Value and tonnage limits are artificial constraints-- no garrison commander is going to say, "Gee, I'd really love to swap one of these Wasps for an Assassin, but that would put us over our tonnage limits!"

The 'Mech is twice as expensive as the Wasp and Stinger, but while you can make the argument that you can buy two Wasps for the price of one Assassin, that doesn't include payroll costs for the pilot(s) and maintenance crews. And for offensive operations, Dropships can only carry so many 'Mechs-- if you can lay your hands on an Assassin, trading a Wasp or Stinger for it makes perfect sense.