474 replies to this topic

[RamsoPanzer]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Suggest you read my linked post above, where I reason why LRMs require skill to use well. This argument is a "yes, but no" one. Yes, it requires little to no skill to target, lock, shoot LRMs. However, it requires quite a bit of skill to know what targets to shoot at, where to shoot, and when/where not to shoot. It takes skill to land LRM hits regularly, and to not just get closed in on and die. It's even harder than any other weapon system in the game to blind fire those LRMs (at the moment at least) and actually hit your target! (When in ECM land, sometimes it is best to take the ECM "I'm protected from LRMs" and blind fire a few rounds into them for standing still. No warnings either.)

Every other build and mech in this game also have those same problems. Situation awareness, positioning, target selection, Ecm. Thinking that those points are exclusively related to Lrm builds or that they are much important for Lrm builds is just wrong.

[Tesunie]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Every other build and mech in this game also have those same problems. Situation awareness, positioning, target selection, Ecm. Thinking that those points are exclusively related to Lrm builds or that they are much important for Lrm builds is just wrong.

All other weapons don't come with an "Incoming" warning. They don't depend so heavily on locks. ECM doesn't shut down their ability to be "aimed". No other weapon system has a damage reduction system (AMS). No other weapon system is as easily dodged. No other weapon system moves as slowly.

So yeah. All weapon systems have the same limitations as LRMs...

LRMs are, though, the only weapon system that can deal damage outside of line of sight. This alone does make them different as well.

(PS: ECM really doesn't effect other weapon systems all that much. Maybe you don't notice them from afar as easily, but you can still reliably hit them with direct fire weapons. LRMs have to bring a TAG to lock on and still get slower lock on speed, or have to blind fire at the target and hope they stand still for 30 seconds or more. Oh, and besides the PPCs, no other weapon has a hard cut off damage minimum range either providing a large weakness for up close fighting.)

[RamsoPanzer]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

All other weapons don't come with an "Incoming" warning. They don't depend so heavily on locks. ECM doesn't shut down their ability to be "aimed". No other weapon system has a damage reduction system (AMS). No other weapon system is as easily dodged. No other weapon system moves as slowly.

So yeah. All weapon systems have the same limitations as LRMs...

LRMs are, though, the only weapon system that can deal damage outside of line of sight. This alone does make them different as well.

(PS: ECM really doesn't effect other weapon systems all that much. Maybe you don't notice them from afar as easily, but you can still reliably hit them with direct fire weapons. LRMs have to bring a TAG to lock on and still get slower lock on speed, or have to blind fire at the target and hope they stand still for 30 seconds or more. Oh, and besides the PPCs, no other weapon has a hard cut off damage minimum range either providing a large weakness for up close fighting.)

U guys keep living your own lie.
Every weapon has its own problems. Range-heat-damage etc. If you are going to tell me all the problems of the Lrms, then should always tell me all the problems of the rest of weapons.
Lasers - you have to keep it aimed on target to deal full damage
Pulse lasers - very short range and huge heat
PPCs/ErPPCs - minimum range & huge heat. Pinpoint damage, requires good aim.
SRMs - Spread, short Range and hit Reg.
Ballistics - Pinpoint damage, requires good aim to put enough DPS to be effective.

Do u really consider that using a tag and waiting for a lock requires better skills than those weapons? blup

[Tesunie]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

U guys keep living your own lie.
Every weapon has its own problems. Range-heat-damage etc. If you are going to tell me all the problems of the Lrms, then should always tell me all the problems of the rest of weapons.
Lasers - you have to keep it aimed on target to deal full damage
Pulse lasers - very short range and huge heat
PPCs/ErPPCs - minimum range & huge heat. Pinpoint damage, requires good aim.
SRMs - Spread, short Range and hit Reg.
Ballistics - Pinpoint damage, requires good aim to put enough DPS to be effective.

Do u really consider that using a tag and waiting for a lock requires better skills than those weapons? blup

Have you played LRMs? How bout an LRM boat? Make it a slow one...

I'll take your comparisons and line them up for LRMs then:
LRMs: Must keep a lock on for the whole flight. If the LRM mech is spotting for themselves, that is even worse than a laser, as you have to face nose into your target FOR THE ENTIRE LRM FLIGHT. When you have wave after wave of LRMs going into the target, that is a zero glance away for cover, and making it more difficult for spreading damage by twisting.

LRMs: Is very vulnerable to close range, and fast mechs who can close into that close range. Oh, and they can run hot depending upon how many you have, what sized tubes, etc.

LRMs: Have an even larger minimum range than PPCs. LRMs also have no direction on where their damage will hit. They hit when and where and if they hit.

LRMs: Share the same spread and hit reg problems as SRMs (and SSRMs) to some extent. (SRMs are in a bad spot right now.)

LRMs: Spreads damage, compared to one "high pin point alpha" of Ballistics. Has higher heat generation over ballistics. Needs more tons of ammo over ballistics.

LRMs also have the need for locks, doesn't work very well without locks, are slow to damage targets (target/terrain/situation dependent) , deal their damage wherever they hit (can't aim and try to hit an already damaged component), spreads their damage most times across a lot of the mech, is blocked from cover (and more than just what is in front, but what is above, behind, and around the target).

I can recall many times that I had a target in my sights, under the docks in Crimson, locked on and in range, and I couldn't deal a single point of damage with my LRMs as my missiles would flight up and into the ceiling before connecting to the target, where as they could shoot me the whole time with their direct fire weapons.

The thing is, LRMs require DIFFERENT skills over direct fired weapons. They are not skill-less to use, but need different skills to use. A good LRM user will conserve their fire till they know their shot has a good chance to hit. This can often mean having to get their own locks, looking above as well as what's in front of them, and even paying attention to where a target is before shooting any indirect shots. After all, it's a real shame to waste you LRMs on the ceiling of a tunnel when you shoot at someone else's lock and the target is INSIDE that said tunnel... (Or has a slanted rock crystal formation above their heads, or is jumping up and down (bobbling) to have your missiles hit a rock face in front of them instead of them. OR even have a really cleaver foe who runs behind one of your own allies, and your LRMs end up hitting them instead even with a solid lock.)

[RamsoPanzer]

So, as i can see, Lrms have lots of problems, so the conclusion after reading your post is: Lrms Suck.

[Victor Morson]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

So, as i can see, Lrms have lots of problems, so the conclusion after reading your post is: Lrms Suck.

General competitive opinion, yes.

The whole reason I wrote this guide in the first place is that there is a very specific way they can be effective, and it has to be pretty much dead-on to work well.

That said, they are also the single most difficult weapon to utilize properly. Indirect damage is poorly focused at best.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 February 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 14 February 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

The whole reason I wrote this guide in the first place is that there is a very specific way they can be effective, and it has to be pretty much dead-on to work well.

There are other ways, but yes. You have to kinda know what you are doing for them to be effective and/or have a good team and teamwork.

General LRM opinions are "They suck", but are currently "SRMs suck more". This is, of course, the average person's perspective on the subject. (I find I do well with LRMs, and any build I put them onto, even a few, I see better results with overall. This is just me, as I think that they work very well with me.)

[Zeede]

I was an excellent arty player in World of Tanks, and the comparisons to LRM boats are many. Lots of ignorant players who had never gotten past Tier 4 arties assumed that Tier 8 arties were just easy mode.

[Buckminster]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

So, as i can see, Lrms have lots of problems, so the conclusion after reading your post is: Lrms Suck.

Actually, the conclusion you are looking for is "they are not easy mode". They are you quintessential "easy to learn, difficult to master" weapon - everyone can use them, but it actually takes skill to use them effectively.

[1453 R]

Give it up Buck, Tes. Obvious troll is obvious. Ramso's idiocy doesn't lessen our effectiveness in our chosen machines, eh? Anyone worth educating will know better by the end of the thread here anyways, hm?

[Buckminster]

Point noted. I just hate seeing the spread of misinformation.

[RamsoPanzer]

1453 R, on 14 February 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

Give it up Buck, Tes. Obvious troll is obvious. Ramso's idiocy doesn't lessen our effectiveness in our chosen machines, eh? Anyone worth educating will know better by the end of the thread here anyways, hm?

You are the only idiot here man.

[Tesunie]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

You are the only idiot here man.

Actually, in this thread at least, he's been rather informative... But it appears you two might have some sort of history together and are dragging that into the thread with you...

[1453 R]

So do I, Buck. Heh, sometimes though, ye just run across a certain kind of individual you just can't talk to. About as much use as trying to hold a conversation with a bucket of fresh-caught fish - you get a lot of wild gesticulating and flapping mouths, but nothing actually ever gets said, eh?

Tes: Never met the man before in my life. Met his type plenty though.

Edited by 1453 R, 14 February 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[Galenit]

RamsoPanzer, on 14 February 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Do u really consider that using a tag and waiting for a lock requires better skills than those weapons? blup

Lets do an experiment:

We have three apes and we want to train them.
They sit in front of an monitor and have a joystick and 2 buttons.

Ape A has to catch a moving yellow point on the monitor with a red joystick controlled circle and then has to push the first button to release a banana.

Ape B has to catch a moving yellow point on the monitor with the same red cycle, but he has to push the first button when the circle turns green after a few moment and then has to still hold the now green circle over the yellow point for another 2 to 8 seconds to release the banana.
If he loses the dot with the circle it turns red and there is no banana this try for the ape.

Now lets make it a bit harder for Ape C:
First he has to push and hold the second button witch lights a blue box on the monitor, then he has to catch the moving yellow point with the box, this will bring up the red circle. He has still to hold the second button and has to hold the box and the circle over the moving point, wait until the circle turns green and then has to push the first button. Then he has still to hold the second button and still has to hold the box and and the circle over the moving dot for another 2-8 seconds to release the banana.
If he releases the second button or loses the dot with the box and the circle the circle turns red and our poor ape will get no banana this try.

What do you think,
witch ape needs the longest to be trained
and witch ape will get the most bananas over 1000 trys?

Edited by Galenit, 15 February 2014 - 05:15 AM.