675 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

The issue is, you can't aim SRMs, they will hit all the torsos. By the same argument, I did 1298 damage with AC2s, did I use them effectively? No, they hit arms, side torsos and legs.

Srms are frontloaded, and do more damage ton for ton than ballistics, they cannot be aimed. Ballistics still have both the frontloaded and aimable alpha. Lasers are also a better choice in comparison.

I beg to disagree. That said I always use artemis on my SRM.

AAAALLLLWWWAAAAYYYSSSSS

I regularly get all of mine into a torso section I want to hit.

[Cimarb]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

The issue is, you can't aim SRMs, they will hit all the torsos. By the same argument, I did 1298 damage with AC2s, did I use them effectively? No, they hit arms, side torsos and legs.

Srms are frontloaded, and do more damage ton for ton than ballistics, they cannot be aimed. Ballistics still have both the frontloaded and aimable alpha. Lasers are also a better choice in comparison.

SRMs aren't front loaded - they are spread. Otherwise I agree with what you said, but since we have a lot of terms being used I didn't want to confuse them for those reading (though it's probably just the 4-5 of us, lol).

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or you can accept the fact that other weapons are working just fine but there is a higher skill cap for using them effectively.

But its quite clear at this point that you will disagree with everything I say or show you regardless. Im jsut going to start posting every game I can with these weapon groups over and over and over again. Its said a picture speaks for a thousand words. Wonder how many of my posts showing the weapons are fine will be needed. I have alot in my archines :3

I have a good amount in my archives too, but posting them doesn't prove the effectiveness of any individual weapon system. Even if you only equip a single weapon type, such as a Jenner with only MLs or an AC40 jäger, posting the screenshot of your end of match scores doesn't show that loadout in the screenshot, so we just take your/my word for it. An end game screenshot is great to show the total damage and how many kills it got you, but that is about it. We can't see anything else that happened or what your loadout actually was for that match.

It would be great if we could break the weapon stats down by match. I think that would be amazingly more accurate than the current data, because we could then see the effectiveness of the groups of weapons in that specific mech at that specific time.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 02 January 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

SRMs aren't front loaded - they are spread. Otherwise I agree with what you said, but since we have a lot of terms being used I didn't want to confuse them for those reading (though it's probably just the 4-5 of us, lol).


I have a good amount in my archives too, but posting them doesn't prove the effectiveness of any individual weapon system. Even if you only equip a single weapon type, such as a Jenner with only MLs or an AC40 jäger, posting the screenshot of your end of match scores doesn't show that loadout in the screenshot, so we just take your/my word for it. An end game screenshot is great to show the total damage and how many kills it got you, but that is about it. We can't see anything else that happened or what your loadout actually was for that match.

It would be great if we could break the weapon stats down by match. I think that would be amazingly more accurate than the current data, because we could then see the effectiveness of the groups of weapons in that specific mech at that specific time.

although I could I suppose use different weapons on a mech. I again say you will do anything to disagree or discredit me, which is again, fine. Ill just keep posting more and more detailed screenshots of those mechs doing well. I play enough and kill enough people that im pretty sure people will see it and know im not lieing.

Hell I already have had many people ask for that particular build and given it out so im sure it will be floating around out there for others to play and kill with.

That said... your trying to still break a weapon down by damage, in which case you will fail, quite miserably since my argument continues to be that all weapons are different and balanced based on the situation they are used in. I will say one thing the screen cap does fail to capture is this mech needs to be played 'a certain way'

Most players fail to realize that you cant expect to run into combat face down any mech and expect results. Every mech plays differently and everyone weapon is meant to be used differently.

[The Flying Gecko]

Oh wow, ANOTHER one of these threads?

[Joseph Mallan]

The Flying Gecko, on 02 January 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Oh wow, ANOTHER one of these threads?

No it's not. It's different. It has been started by someone new!

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

although I could I suppose use different weapons on a mech. I again say you will do anything to disagree or discredit me, which is again, fine. Ill just keep posting more and more detailed screenshots of those mechs doing well. I play enough and kill enough people that im pretty sure people will see it and know im not lieing.

Hell I already have had many people ask for that particular build and given it out so im sure it will be floating around out there for others to play and kill with.

That said... your trying to still break a weapon down by damage, in which case you will fail, quite miserably since my argument continues to be that all weapons are different and balanced based on the situation they are used in. I will say one thing the screen cap does fail to capture is this mech needs to be played 'a certain way'

Most players fail to realize that you cant expect to run into combat face down any mech and expect results. Every mech plays differently and everyone weapon is meant to be used differently.

I have at least two screenshots of getting 4 kills (plus 4-6 assists) with a locust, so pretty much anything is possible under the right circumstances, lol.

I definitely agree that you have to play different mechs/builds different ways, and I have no doubt that you are quite skilled and have no reason to try to discredit you or say you are lying - we just disagree, so I am trying to "show you the light" just like I'm sure you feel you are doing with me. It may never work, but hopefully we can eventually still toss the Emperor over the ledge together and save the universe.

Having said that, you can't discredit everything by saying "no stats matter because they are situational - see, I did good with lasers, so they must be balanced". The vast majority of people feel the locust is horrible and a free kill, yet as I said earlier I can show you screenshots of me doing quite well with one. I have also been killed within seconds of entering combat many, many times, so luck has a lot to do with it either way. Just because you and sandpit do ok with lasers does not mean ballistics don't need adjusted, because you probably do even better with ballistics. Or, they may just not fit your playstyles, so you don't do well with them and that is why you think they don't need nerfed.

Regardless of the reason you feel the way you do, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate, though.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 02 January 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

I have at least two screenshots of getting 4 kills (plus 4-6 assists) with a locust, so pretty much anything is possible under the right circumstances, lol.

I definitely agree that you have to play different mechs/builds different ways, and I have no doubt that you are quite skilled and have no reason to try to discredit you or say you are lying - we just disagree, so I am trying to "show you the light" just like I'm sure you feel you are doing with me. It may never work, but hopefully we can eventually still toss the Emperor over the ledge together and save the universe.

Having said that, you can't discredit everything by saying "no stats matter because they are situational - see, I did good with lasers, so they must be balanced". The vast majority of people feel the locust is horrible and a free kill, yet as I said earlier I can show you screenshots of me doing quite well with one. I have also been killed within seconds of entering combat many, many times, so luck has a lot to do with it either way. Just because you and sandpit do ok with lasers does not mean ballistics don't need adjusted, because you probably do even better with ballistics. Or, they may just not fit your playstyles, so you don't do well with them and that is why you think they don't need nerfed.

Regardless of the reason you feel the way you do, there is nothing wrong with healthy debate, though.

Well said. This i agree with. Though I will say depends on the emperor.... that can have so many conotations in the gaming world...

I will not say that dps value is not a good tool for getting an idea of where weapons are but its a horrible tool to base all thoughts off of. Purely because it can mean little to nothing in alot of situations as well.

Frankly I dont think either of us have a perfect solution. Perhaps one will be found in the middle. But I will say in a nod of respect your way and to just let you know its nothing personal that as I said, I am mainly here to offer a counter point to make it so changes are not so drastic (if they come) that they make the game unplayable for all game types or in advertently create even more problems and unbalance issues.

Honestly (and I was going to suggest this to noesis but I but heads with him to hard). I would love to conduct testing games in which different play styles are utilized and differrent weapons in as controled of an environment as possible. Analyze games.. study how people use weapons and then look into maps and specific situations to do a more all encompassing study that makes good sense for a playing mans standpoint.

[KinsonRavenlock]

Varent, on 01 January 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Felt the need to post this as an example.

4 medium lasers, 2 srm 6 with artemis and 2 machine gun.

So apparently medium lasers and srm are broken or bad and balistic is the only feasible thing huh?

and yet lasers and srm are the primary weapons on this mech.

I beg to differ with many people assertions.

After looking closely at your screen shot its pretty easy to ascertain that was obviously not a high elo match in any way shape or form.... Surprised you posted it actually given the types of mechs involved as something to support your argument...

That being said, while turning ballistics into 'Laser like' weapons very well may make the game easier to balance. It will have the negative impact of killing diversity.
Over time I suspect we're going to see srm hit detection get better and probably a beam duration shortening buff to lasers which will allow for greater viable builds.

[Varent]

KinsonRavenlock, on 02 January 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

After looking closely at your screen shot its pretty easy to ascertain that was obviously not a high elo match in any way shape or form.... Surprised you posted it actually given the types of mechs involved as something to support your argument...

That being said, while turning ballistics into 'Laser like' weapons very well may make the game easier to balance. It will have the negative impact of killing diversity.
Over time I suspect we're going to see srm hit detection get better and probably a beam duration shortening buff to lasers which will allow for greater viable builds.

And really knitpicking that? I swear these guys....

[KinsonRavenlock]

Well you posit on the one hand you're a high elo player. Then post a screen shot with one or two actual meta mechs in it and trial mechs to support your position, which undermines it from my viewpoint.
If you're going to put forth an inconsistent argument expect to be called on it..
Unless of course you have a screen shot of doing 1k damage with that thunderbolt, in a match full of highlanders,victors,cataphracts, and jenners with names people actually recognize...

[johnyboy420]

them white KNIGHTS bro them white KnIgHtS

[DrxAbstract]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

And really knitpicking that? I swear these guys....

Well he has a point... Admittedly I have to agree that's not a high ELO match.

You argue the situational use of SRMs and post screenshot evidence supporting this, however the screenshot shows SRMs are situational weapons to a flaw:

Low ELO match, River City (Best map for short-range/brawler builds) and nearly 5 Minutes of combat. I posit the question: Why didnt you do more?

That's the basis you're arguing against really - comparatively, Ballistics and Beams are more effective over a wider range of situations, be it opponents, combat style, maps or skill level while allowing you to concentrate damage without being nose-to-skidplate with your target. That's the problem with SRMs - It's not a 'higher skillcap' weapon system, it's just plain ineffective by a large margin in the majority of game play situations... Even if it didnt suffer from hit detection issues, the firing spread from most Mech chassis, even with Artemis, is horrid and requires you to place yourself in dangerous positions if you want to use them effectively. On top of that, they dont have crit modifiers like Machine Guns or LBXs, which, for a weapon that is supposed to be a crit-seeker, leaves SRMs in an overall state of wanting.

I'm assuming you have 4 tons of ammo and a near-max STD engine on that Thunderbolt; If i'm correct, you have 12 tons tied up in just your SRMs - Something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de3f4adaa2a78b6

Opening up armor and using the Mguns to disable weapons... great in theory and probably the best choice for brawler setup for that specific variant, but as with many builds it's great on paper and against mediocre opponents, but impractical otherwise.

1. How much outgoing damage potential are you sacrificing just getting into position?
2. How much cover fire can you support your team with?
3. How effective is this build against 100+ KPH targets?
4. How effective is this build in open areas?
5. How much of your teammates' armor are you sacrificing just to get within range to attack?

Situational... Extremely situational... Too situational.

I'd take my 2 Llas, 7 Slas HBK-4P over your build for brawling any day. 98 Kph, useful at moderate range and the alpha potential of an AC40 Jager while being 15 tons lighter than a Thunderbolt... I'll remember you like SRMs as i sheer off that torso in a couple shots =p.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 02 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[johnyboy420]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'd take my 2 Llas, 7 Slas HBK-4P over your build for brawling any day. 98 Kph, useful at moderate range and the alpha potential of an AC40 Jager while being 15 tons lighter than a Thunderbolt... I'll remember you like SRMs as i sheer off that torso in a couple shots =p.

that swayback sucks

[DrxAbstract]

johnyboy420, on 02 January 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

that swayback sucks

Pish posh!

[Varent]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Well he has a point... Admittedly I have to agree that's not a high ELO match.

You argue the situational use of SRMs and post screenshot evidence supporting this, however the screenshot shows SRMs are situational weapons to a flaw:

Low ELO match, River City (Best map for short-range/brawler builds) and nearly 5 Minutes of combat. I posit the question: Why didnt you do more?

That's the basis you're arguing against really - comparatively, Ballistics and Beams are more effective over a wider range of situations, be it opponents, combat style, maps or skill level while allowing you to concentrate damage without being nose-to-skidplate with your target. That's the problem with SRMs - It's not a 'higher skillcap' weapon system, it's just plain ineffective by a large margin in the majority of game play situations... Even if it didnt suffer from hit detection issues, the firing spread from most Mech chassis, even with Artemis, is horrid and requires you to place yourself in dangerous positions if you want to use them effectively. On top of that, they dont have crit modifiers like Machine Guns or LBXs, which, for a weapon that is supposed to be a crit-seeker, leaves SRMs in an overall state of wanting.

I'm assuming you have 4 tons of ammo and a near-max STD engine on that Thunderbolt; If i'm correct, you have 12 tons tied up in just your SRMs - Something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de3f4adaa2a78b6

Opening up armor and using the Mguns to disable weapons... great in theory and probably the best choice for brawler setup for that specific variant, but as with many builds it's great on paper and against mediocre opponents, but impractical otherwise.

1. How much outgoing damage potential are you sacrificing just getting into position?
2. How much cover fire can you support your team with?
3. How effective is this build against 100+ KPH targets?
4. How effective is this build in open areas?
5. How much of your teammates' armor are you sacrificing just to get within range to attack?

Situational... Extremely situational... Too situational.

I'd take my 2 Llas, 7 Slas HBK-4P over your build for brawling any day. 98 Kph, useful at moderate range and the alpha potential of an AC40 Jager while being 15 tons lighter than a Thunderbolt... I'll remember you like SRMs as i sheer off that torso in a couple shots =p.

because... I was literally playing that game and felt the need to show from a basic position what the difference is in weapons and what that type of mech can do?

As I said before. Ill just start posting all my matches here. More then enough are played with lasers and srm and go quite well at multiple elo.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Well said. This i agree with. Though I will say depends on the emperor.... that can have so many conotations in the gaming world...

I will not say that dps value is not a good tool for getting an idea of where weapons are but its a horrible tool to base all thoughts off of. Purely because it can mean little to nothing in alot of situations as well.

Frankly I dont think either of us have a perfect solution. Perhaps one will be found in the middle. But I will say in a nod of respect your way and to just let you know its nothing personal that as I said, I am mainly here to offer a counter point to make it so changes are not so drastic (if they come) that they make the game unplayable for all game types or in advertently create even more problems and unbalance issues.

Honestly (and I was going to suggest this to noesis but I but heads with him to hard). I would love to conduct testing games in which different play styles are utilized and differrent weapons in as controled of an environment as possible. Analyze games.. study how people use weapons and then look into maps and specific situations to do a more all encompassing study that makes good sense for a playing mans standpoint.

I agree with all this. I act as (for lack of a better term) devils advocate in most discussions, so I totally understand. I am not wanting drastic changes at all, as that is almost always bad for a game.

I would love to have it tested several ways over a week or two on the public test server, and it really irks me that PGI refuses to use the test servers as anything more than a stress test. Start with a 0.6 sec burst duration (most drastic I would recommend, as this is what a PL has) for a day or so, then slowly move it down to 0.2 or so over the next week to see how it feels. Gather feedback on it, like they did UI2.0, and actually ACT upon that feedback for once to fine tune it.

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

And really knitpicking that? I swear these guys....

I agree, again (I may be coming down with the flu or something...).

I don't care what ELO Varent is in, nor who/what he is playing. Any person in here that talks about their ELO (or anyone else's) can't be taken seriously in those type of comments, simply because ELO isn't even visible on our end - it may not even exist for all we know. All that matters to me is looking at the data and trying to work together to make a solution.

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

because... I was literally playing that game and felt the need to show from a basic position what the difference is in weapons and what that type of mech can do?

As I said before. Ill just start posting all my matches here. More then enough are played with lasers and srm and go quite well at multiple elo.

Don't feed the trolls. They just want to derail the conversation. Let's stay on topic, and that means talking about the data and possible compromises to solve it.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 02 January 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

I agree with all this. I act as (for lack of a better term) devils advocate in most discussions, so I totally understand. I am not wanting drastic changes at all, as that is almost always bad for a game.

I would love to have it tested several ways over a week or two on the public test server, and it really irks me that PGI refuses to use the test servers as anything more than a stress test. Start with a 0.6 sec burst duration (most drastic I would recommend, as this is what a PL has) for a day or so, then slowly move it down to 0.2 or so over the next week to see how it feels. Gather feedback on it, like they did UI2.0, and actually ACT upon that feedback for once to fine tune it.


I agree, again (I may be coming down with the flu or something...).

I don't care what ELO Varent is in, nor who/what he is playing. Any person in here that talks about their ELO (or anyone else's) can't be taken seriously in those type of comments, simply because ELO isn't even visible on our end - it may not even exist for all we know. All that matters to me is looking at the data and trying to work together to make a solution.


Don't feed the trolls. They just want to derail the conversation. Let's stay on topic, and that means talking about the data and possible compromises to solve it.

Seconded on the last note. That said.. im calling forums quits for the day. Ill hit ya up tomorrow Cim.

[Wildstreak]

OK, have not seen this or other topics like it but I still agree with him, there should only be one topic. Time to PM a Staff Member again.

[mongrel]

Howdy, I don't post much but I do have a couple questions in regard to AC & realistic ballistic profiles. I don't play them all tht much so bare with me.

• Do ac rounds have any "drop" at long range? (the don't seen to suffer much in my experience)
  
• Do AC rounds do less damage at long range?? (again don't seem to have any power drop at long range) I have had my face tore off at extreme range by ac 5 ultras more times than I can count.

[Myomes]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

The issue is, you can't aim SRMs, they will hit all the torsos. By the same argument, I did 1298 damage with AC2s, did I use them effectively? No, they hit arms, side torsos and legs.

Srms are frontloaded, and do more damage ton for ton than ballistics, they cannot be aimed. Ballistics still have both the frontloaded and aimable alpha. Lasers are also a better choice in comparison.

If you cant aim your SRMs... I'll take leading a target for twitch based front loaded damage over having to track a target with absolute 100% accuracy to achieve any appreciable damage any day.