675 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

No more than the SRM splash meta.

Although ballistics will still have their 3X range...there will be plenty of sniping still, just as there are ERLL boats currently. Are you imagining a different kind of burst AC? They will have the same stats, just not frontloaded. Shorter bursts than lasers on top of that.

Brawlers Online. Enjoy it. Splat Cats were easily taken out by range.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yes and no. Brawling would become viable again in the metagame, you could actually get within 270M without getting your torso blow open by multiple 40 pinpoint alphas.

Currently, the pinpoint meta is pretty much easy mode, you can fire and twist immediately. Hitting a particular component is not hard on anything heavier than 50 tons, so don't try to say it takes very much skill. It is the most effective way to play, hence the whole meta craze. Sure, you can use SRMs to get high damage, but its all spread over multiple components.

My opinion is that the removal of pinpoint weapons would make the game much more enjoyable, with brawling being practical and torso twisting required and efficient. Gauss is the only thing that bugs me. Perhaps it just gets a higher cooldown, but keeps its frontload?

See? I completely disagree. What you're asking for is the easy button.
I want an easy way to close to 270 meters without having to worry about damage at range

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

See? I completely disagree. What you're asking for is the easy button.
I want an easy way to close to 270 meters without having to worry about damage at range

This.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

See? I completely disagree. What you're asking for is the easy button.
I want an easy way to close to 270 meters without having to worry about damage at range

So you're saying the weapons that have the same stats but are instead DoT will change the game that drasticly? All it will do is increase TTK since you can properly mitigate damage by twisting, emulating the random aiming of TT without any convulted mechanics(IE ghost heat, CoF or the like).

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 December 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So you're saying the weapons that have the same stats but are instead DoT will change the game that drasticly? All it will do is increase TTK since you can properly mitigate damage by twisting, emulating the random aiming of TT without any convulted mechanics(IE ghost heat, CoF or the like).

your trying to make it TT. That's your first fatal flaw. Its not TT. I tend to get in on those weapon users already and kill them I take damage while twisting and im smart. What this would do is make it super easy mode. All I would do is play brawlers while long distance mechs make poor attempts at killing me till I can tear them apart up close. Why play when that's all the game would come down too? Good bye sniping as a whole.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So you're saying the weapons that have the same stats but are instead DoT will change the game that drasticly? All it will do is increase TTK since you can properly mitigate damage by twisting, emulating the random aiming of TT without any convulted mechanics(IE ghost heat, CoF or the like).

No more than changing that stops a player from taking the same amount of damage while closing. Think I can't pick apart your torso with my laser boats while you close just because they're a beam?
You would be very mistaken if so.
Torso twisting doesn’t mean I can't hit your torso, it means I zoom in and shoot your head instead of aiming directly at your torso. It's not hard

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

your trying to make it TT. That's your first fatal flaw. Its not TT. I tend to get in on those weapon users already and kill them I take damage while twisting and im smart. What this would do is make it super easy mode. All I would do is play brawlers while long distance mechs make poor attempts at killing me till I can tear them apart up close. Why play when that's all the game would come down too? Good bye sniping as a whole.

So, the same thing that is happening now, but under 500M. Torso twisting does nothing with frontloaded damage if your opponent is any good, since he'll wait for you to face him to shoot him, then he unloads his alpha targetting whatever he wants.

Do you have any reccomendations for balance or to increase TTK, or are you completely satisfied with NARC, ECM+LRM, the useless flamers along with the frontloaded master race?

My opinion is that the current pinpoint meta is stale. I used some MGs and SRMs last night, and it was considerably funner, and almost viable. Although while the others could shoot me from 4-700M effectively if they positioned themselves corretly, my SRMs are hard capped at 270. Registration was adequate, but improvement could be made.

Also, how is burst weapons easier than the current click and twist game? You actually need to hold it down like lasers for a fraction of a second, rather than the time it takes to press the button and turn. I'm not seeing that logic.

But, I guess our opinions are very different regarding balance.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

So, the same thing that is happening now, but under 500M. Torso twisting does nothing with frontloaded damage if your opponent is any good, since he'll wait for you to face him to shoot him, then he unloads his alpha targetting whatever he wants.

Do you have any reccomendations for balance or to increase TTK, or are you completely satisfied with NARC, ECM+LRM, the useless flamers along with the frontloaded master race?

My opinion is that the current pinpoint meta is stale. I used some MGs and SRMs last night, and it was considerably funner, and almost viable. Although while the others could shoot me from 4-700M effectively if they positioned themselves corretly, my SRMs are hard capped at 270. Registration was adequate, but improvement could be made.

Also, how is burst weapons easier than the current click and twist game? You actually need to hold it down like lasers for a fraction of a second, rather than the time it takes to press the button and turn. I'm not seeing that logic.

But, I guess our opinions are very different regarding balance.

So first off... I do have suggestions. That said the game can be played as is, its plenty balanced and just fine. HOWEVER if I was going o knit pick (Which I discourage). I would say truly make the flamer feel like a flamer, take out almost every bit of damage that it does except minimal, but make It truly effective in overheating a mech and keeping it overheated. Force people to manage there heat correctly. Regarding narc the only thing I don't like about it is its too easy to knock off with damage. Other then that its just hard to use but it can be effective. ECM is fine. people need to stop whining about that. LRM are fine when used correctly. They have there place.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

No more than changing that stops a player from taking the same amount of damage while closing. Think I can't pick apart your torso with my laser boats while you close just because they're a beam?
You would be very mistaken if so.
Torso twisting doesn’t mean I can't hit your torso, it means I zoom in and shoot your head instead of aiming directly at your torso. It's not hard

I think the game would be much funner if it wasn't so similar to all the CoDs and BFs, with point and click and turn and repeat.

I'd be impressed if you can get headshots on something that isn't shut down from lasers, between HSR and the movement it can be difficult. All the power to you if you can manage that.

And the twisting isn't so you can't hit the torso, its to spread the damage across the 2 torso segments plus the arm. 60 armor turns into 120+ if it spreads out like that.

But, PGI isn't about to implement any of this...but I guess its nice to think about a different type of meta.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

I think the game would be much funner if it wasn't so similar to all the CoDs and BFs, with point and click and turn and repeat.

I'd be impressed if you can get headshots on something that isn't shut down from lasers, between HSR and the movement it can be difficult. All the power to you if you can manage that.

And the twisting isn't so you can't hit the torso, its to spread the damage across the 2 torso segments plus the arm. 60 armor turns into 120+ if it spreads out like that.

But, PGI isn't about to implement any of this...but I guess its nice to think about a different type of meta.

Honestly the current meta makes it NOT like call of duty. Make everything a stream weapon and you basically have call of duty with extra armor and less damage.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Honestly the current meta makes it NOT like call of duty. Make everything a stream weapon and you basically have call of duty with extra armor and less damage.

Not sure I follow, TTK is rather similar between CoD and MWO's meta masters, who CT core just about anything within 3 alphas.

The bursts would potentially make the TTK longer agaisnt anyone who could twist properly. Then again, legging might make an appearance. Can't twist against that.

If you've ever player MWLL, their ultra cannons are what I'm thinking for a burst, short in length and very possible to hit a single component against a stationary target. It just removes the obvious advantage of frontloaded damage. Its not game breaking for the most part, but it does have an effect.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Not sure I follow, TTK is rather similar between CoD and MWO's meta masters, who CT core just about anything within 3 alphas.

The bursts would potentially make the TTK longer agaisnt anyone who could twist properly. Then again, legging might make an appearance. Can't twist against that.

If you've ever player MWLL, their ultra cannons are what I'm thinking for a burst, short in length and very possible to hit a single component against a stationary target. It just removes the obvious advantage of frontloaded damage. Its not game breaking for the most part, but it does have an effect.

Answer - Currently there are set groups and things that tend to beat other builds. There is no god build. There is a dominant meta, but its not unbeatable. That said the current 'dominant meta' at least takes skill. I have trouble appreciating a meta that just makes brawlers gods and neuters any other possibility, which that would do. Now that said it would become COD because most people in cod run around like chickens with there heads cut off without any real direction just holding down the trigger. I would rather not play in a game like that anymore. That's why I don't want mwo to become this....

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

I think the game would be much funner if it wasn't so similar to all the CoDs and BFs, with point and click and turn and repeat.

I'd be impressed if you can get headshots on something that isn't shut down from lasers, between HSR and the movement it can be difficult. All the power to you if you can manage that.

And the twisting isn't so you can't hit the torso, its to spread the damage across the 2 torso segments plus the arm. 60 armor turns into 120+ if it spreads out like that.

But, PGI isn't about to implement any of this...but I guess its nice to think about a different type of meta.

And I disagree entirely. What you're suggesting is Cod style play
I head shot mechs all the time with lasers. I even get head shot kills. I already do everything you say can't be done regularly with lasers. That's why I always disagree with the whole "ballistics are better than energy" threads.
If what you said and say about energy weapons were true then I couldn't do what I do with them and that's simply not the case

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Answer - Currently there are set groups and things that tend to beat other builds. There is no god build. There is a dominant meta, but its not unbeatable. That said the current 'dominant meta' at least takes skill. I have trouble appreciating a meta that just makes brawlers gods and neuters any other possibility, which that would do. Now that said it would become COD because most people in cod run around like chickens with there heads cut off without any real direction just holding down the trigger. I would rather not play in a game like that anymore. That's why I don't want mwo to become this....

"Holding down the trigger" The weapons still have the same recycle, so that rings just as true in the current game.

The weapons have the same damage and range, the poptarting will just take a hit, since you need to stay in the air for longer than the fraction of a second, and even then all the AC shots won't hit the same component. An AC2/5 boat still has the same 600M plus range, and they will still hurt. PPCs, I'm not too sure. I've heard part frontloaded, part splash, or just make them a hot and painful laser. I'm partial to the splash myself...but last time PGI tried that it ended horribly.

I just wish we could try different balance options on the PTS so we can find out just how the changes affect gameplay. Any sort of balance change would make me happy, as long as we can try out multiple and they get fixed quickly if something goes horribly wrong.

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

And I disagree entirely. What you're suggesting is Cod style play
I head shot mechs all the time with lasers. I even get head shot kills. I already do everything you say can't be done regularly with lasers. That's why I always disagree with the whole "ballistics are better than energy" threads.
If what you said and say about energy weapons were true then I couldn't do what I do with them and that's simply not the case

I've never stated its impossible, just difficult. 2LL can core out a head in 2 volleys, and I assume you have more than just that equipped, so its perfectly feasible. Although someone standing that still is asking for a headshot from those ranges.

[Sandpit]

Who said anything about standing still?

Again I'm just giving my personal experience. But if I can do it then anyone can. It's not just feasible it's just as practical and viable as anything ballistics can do. Actually it's a bit easier.
If I don't hit the exact location I want at first I am able to walk that beam in and get damage where I want it and then follow that first shot up with 4 more beams continuously putting out damage at a higher rate than ballistics because while they're waiting for their reload my chain fired 5-7 LLs never stop and I can cycle through all of them 4-5 times before heat ever becomes a remote issue
I also understand that ballistics are going to be better at just toe to toe brawling at under about 400 meters

[DrxAbstract]

I've done some tests in the training grounds that indicated, in the case of Medium Lasers that is, Beam weapons do not deal full damage all the time.

I suspected this after several matches of having mixed results in applied damage where some cases took slightly more hits to deal the amount of damage expected... Dropped into the training grounds with my JR7-F (6 Mlas) and alternated between Group(All 6), Half group(3 then 3) and Chainfire on the legs within the optimal damage distance of 270m and noting the armor color variations. The results showed, consistently, that group firing all 6 dealt slightly less overall damage than Half-grouping and Chainfire, despite an equal number total laser shots... Chainfire being the most consistent and in a couple cases the Groupfire limb required 1 extra single laser hit to completely destroy, though the damage difference between the Groupfire test group and the others could have been as little as .5 Damage, I only had Mlas to test with in this instance. In the end, however, it still required 1 more single laser hit than the other two test groups.

Chalk it up to damage registration if you want, it was proof enough to me that Medium Lasers in the very least do not always deal 100% of their damage despite optimal conditions (No spreading, optimal range, immobile target).

[Noesis]

HSR and lag issues not likely in a client run training environment either so the effects have to be as a result of beam mechanics even when trying to hold position in a convenient way against a stationary target. (Optimum conditions).

Whereas in a live situation you will expect much more mobility and spreading effects resulting in greater diminished damage or effectiveness as previously demonstrated and this before considering any residual issues with HSR and lasers.

Interesting to see that even the optimum doesn't even exist however.

[Gaan Cathal]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

If I don't hit the exact location I want at first I am able to walk that beam in and get damage where I want it and then follow that first shot up with 4 more beams continuously putting out damage at a higher rate than ballistics because while they're waiting for their reload my chain fired 5-7 LLs never stop and I can cycle through all of them 4-5 times before heat ever becomes a remote issue

And what's the timeframe to core out a cockpit with your chainfired LLs?

[Sandpit]

Gaan Cathal, on 31 December 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

And what's the timeframe to core out a cockpit with your chainfired LLs?

On average? If I'm having a good game I can do it in one salvo easy with 5 LLs
More usually? About 6-7 shots at 400+ meters

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

So first off... I do have suggestions. That said the game can be played as is, its plenty balanced and just fine. HOWEVER if I was going o knit pick (Which I discourage). I would say truly make the flamer feel like a flamer, take out almost every bit of damage that it does except minimal, but make It truly effective in overheating a mech and keeping it overheated. Force people to manage there heat correctly. Regarding narc the only thing I don't like about it is its too easy to knock off with damage. Other then that its just hard to use but it can be effective. ECM is fine. people need to stop whining about that. LRM are fine when used correctly. They have there place.

I wanted to point this one out because you actually make some good suggestions. The flamer part especially. I would love yo see more constructive posts like this.

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Answer - Currently there are set groups and things that tend to beat other builds. There is no god build. There is a dominant meta, but its not unbeatable. That said the current 'dominant meta' at least takes skill. I have trouble appreciating a meta that just makes brawlers gods and neuters any other possibility, which that would do. Now that said it would become COD because most people in cod run around like chickens with there heads cut off without any real direction just holding down the trigger. I would rather not play in a game like that anymore. That's why I don't want mwo to become this....

And less like this... You start out good, but after the first few sentences, you go right back to saying anyone that disagrees with you lacks any skill and runs around like an id10t. (Can't believe that's a "bad" word...)

Edited by Cimarb, 01 January 2014 - 12:26 AM.