46 replies to this topic

[Warchild Corsair]

If Victor is right I am seriously considering quitting because I find playing in that kind of boring environmet simply dull. If the pplayers ruin this game by just running the same five Mechs with identical builds again and again just for the sake of winning then I am off playing something with more variety.

For the sake of the game I really do hope Koniving is right but the daily battlefield routine tells another story

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Warchild Corsair, on 12 December 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

If Victor is right I am seriously considering quitting because I find playing in that kind of boring environmet simply dull. If the pplayers ruin this game by just running the same five Mechs with identical builds again and again just for the sake of winning then I am off playing something with more variety.

For the sake of the game I really do hope Koniving is right but the daily battlefield routine tells another story

Don't you dare. I expect to see you on the battlefield! With or against; I promise I won't be running meta

[sneeking]

the jedi will pull us out of the clone wars

learn to construct your own light Sabre young padawan. ...

[Buckminster]

HeliosRX, on 11 December 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'm relatively new to the game, but I have a decent head for maths and a pretty good knowledge of old BT rules. In CBT, it was almost a given that one did not run 60-tonner jump-capable mechs for any reason, because a 55-tonner or a 65/70-tonner could do the job better (weapons and tonnage capacity) at either 4/6 (64.8 KPH) or 5/8 (87.6 KPH) and in any region in between. Similarly, one simply did not run an 80 KPH Awesome because the Dragon actually has similar if not better performance at the 80-90 KPH region, while packing a similar weapon and armor configuration. So it confounds me that I keep seeing Quickdraws with max JJs and XL 400 Pretty Babies, given that each is very much suboptimal at its given role. I understand that there are considerations to be made for weapon hardpoints and actual in-game capabilities, but is there any underlying reason the game isn't full of Dragons/non-jumping Quickdraws (which are optimal 80 KPH mechs), Shadow Hawks/Wolverines (55 tonner jumpers, the holy grail of manoeuvrability and firepower) and Orion/Victors?

Some of this is also a matter of some major rules changes/differences.

I grew up on CBT, the 3025 book was our bible. And based on the construction rules available at the time, there were a lot of constraints based on rules and available items that meant some builds were just bad ideas.

A lot of the differences have to do with weight. Now that we have XL, ES, FF and DHS (all things that were missing from my BT days), it's easier to jam stuff on. But there are also changes that have to do with building a first-person sim based on a table top sim.

• The jump jets for that 55 ton mech were lighter then the jump jest for a 60 tonner, as well as the engine to get the same speed. So by dropping the 5 tons, you actually gained weight. But since it's so easy to add weight saving measures, the ton or two that you saved isn't as crucial.
  
• Engine speeds were set based on multiples of your weight, so gaining slight speed increase would add a lot of weight. Getting that Warhammer from 4/6 to 5/8 required an extra 14.5 tons. Now we can make slight bumps in speed - I can put a 300 engine in my Shadow Hawk (so it runs 5.45/8.18?) no problem. This also goes back to weight - an XL engine allows for significantly faster mechs.
  
• The hit boxes are a big difference. In TT, the percent chance to hit a given part of a mech was the same, no matter what the mech was. But now that we are shooting at 3D representation, it isn't always like that. I think we can point at the side hitboxes of the Catapult as a prime example - it's side hit boxes are notoriously small from the front, which means an XL engine is a lot less risky to take.
  
• And actual 3D model has other effects as well - the low slung arms of a Cataphract mean that terrain is more of an issue. That big hump on the hunchback is a giant target. The high ballistic point on the Shadow Hawk makes it an excellent jump shooter.
  
• And then there's personal preference. One man's junk is another man's fun.

So there's a lot to it. One of the first (and hardest) lessons I had to learn was to forget all of the old BT rules and concepts.

Edited by Buckminster, 12 December 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[sneeking]

the big fat snout on catapult is the biggest target in the whole game, makes qusimodos hump look like a pimple

[Victor Morson]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

...as opposed to natural or generic restrictions? Yo do know that MWO is a game made out of loads of zeros and ones dont you? there is absoutley nothing "natural" about the whole game so therefore anything and everything is by definition already artificial.

"Natural" restrictions are those imposed because balance is in a good spot, generally, because it benefits you and you WANT it. i.e. someone might fit a Jagermech into a 650 ton config because it works with the strategy.

"Artificial" restrictions are when it forces you diversify as part of the league. i.e. Marik allows a cap on the # of chassis, meaning you are forced to branch into sub-top 'mechs to qualify.

These are just terms and you look pretty silly attacking someone over ignorance of them.

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

Just about every serious league has some sort of restrictions in it (starting on simple things as limiting the number of Assault mechs per team) so that it doesnt end up in a boring 12 Atlas vs. 12 Atlas cavemenfights.

The biggest leagues like Run Hot or Die are entirely tonnage. No other restrictions apply.

Buckminster, on 12 December 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

So there's a lot to it. One of the first (and hardest) lessons I had to learn was to forget all of the old BT rules and concepts.

The hardest is when people want to relieve those days by having similar designs on their 'mechs. What they fail to realize is the reason half the 'mechs have twin MGs (with a whole ton of ammo) isn't for practical reasons, but as a nerf so the 'mech has a way to explode.

Same reason the Warhawk is carrying a missile launcher instead of more DHS. It's there as a weakness, on purpose.

People think that's how 'mechs "should be" as a result and try to emulate purposely neutered 'mechs in an environment they are even worse.

[Rushin Roulette]

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

These are just terms and you look pretty silly attacking someone over ignorance of them.

I wasnt attacking your ignorance of the notion... more like the redicoulous notion itself taht there is anythign that can be extra artificial within an artificial product.. its like saying you dont like Chrysler because they build artificial cars.

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

The biggest leagues like Run Hot or Die are entirely tonnage. No other restrictions apply.

now im even more confused about what you consider an "artificial" restriction... isnt a league based tonage restriction in itself already an artificialrestriction... or is this considered a natural restriction? How does this compare with any other restriction such as no ECM or only 3 mechs of any weight class for example?

[Victor Morson]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

now im even more confused about what you consider an "artificial" restriction... isnt a league based tonage restriction in itself already an artificialrestriction... or is this considered a natural restriction? How does this compare with any other restriction such as no ECM or only 3 mechs of any weight class for example?

It's a term that gets brought up discussing gameplay balance quite a bit.

Like Ghost Heat for example is "not natural." It forces you to diversify your weapons through punishment / rigid guideline, rather than encouraging you to diversify because it's positive (i.e. "natural.")

Basically the only reason bad mechs get run in leagues is some leagues force it.

[Rushin Roulette]

Again.. you didnt answer my question. What is the difference between Weight limit per team to other limitations such as no ECM or only 1 mech type per team?

And as for what you think leagues force you to run... I know of no single league wich forces a player to run Awsomes or Locusts... no idea where you are dreaming this up?

EDIT: Ghost heat does not force you to diversify the weapons, it only forces you to be intelligent while shooting said weapons. You can still run a 6PPC stalker, you just have to wait 0,5 seconds between shooting a PPC pair and you will notice absolutely no difference heat wise than firing 6 ppcs in single fire.

The only reason why players are diversifying is because other builds are easier to handle in a fight and they dont haev to worry about timing. That is all.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 12 December 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[Buckminster]

But it could be fair to say that weight limits encourage the use of mechs that might not otherwise be used. If I have a 300 ton lance limit, and three guys want to bring assaults, that forces the fourth to look at a Locust when he might not otherwise.

[Rushin Roulette]

Buckminster, on 12 December 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

But it could be fair to say that weight limits encourage the use of mechs that might not otherwise be used. If I have a 300 ton lance limit, and three guys want to bring assaults, that forces the fourth to look at a Locust when he might not otherwise.

Deffinitely, but the league isnt forcing that lance to field that Locust, it is the players own choice in fielding 3 Assaults which is in turn forcing themselves to run that Locust to stay within the weight limit imposed by the league.
They could have easily stayed within the 300 ton limit without running a single Locust if they wanted to... all they would need to do is select 4 lighter mechs such as 4 Catapults for example.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 12 December 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Buckminster]

Well yeah. But it's an artificial limit being forced on the lance that *may* push someone to use a Locust.

I think what Victor is trying to say is that there are mechs out there that people only use (in a competitive environment) because there are artificial restrictions that make a mech that is otherwise undesirable desirable.

I also think he's using a fuzzier definition of an "artificial" restriction. I think any imposed restriction is artificial - weight limits, chassis limits, ECM limits, etc. His definition of "artificial" seems to focus more on chassis limits and equipment limits, but that weight limits are a "natural" part of BT.

[Victor Morson]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Again.. you didnt answer my question. What is the difference between Weight limit per team to other limitations such as no ECM or only 1 mech type per team?

There's a large difference.

For example, RHOD is tonnage only. Typical things you see there: 8x Shadow Hawk, 4x Jenner; 8x Highlander, 4x Jenner, etc, 4x Highlander 4x Victor 4x Jenner, etc. People take only the best equipment, because there's very rarely any advantage to not taking exclusively the best equipment on a per-ton basis.

Marik has a maximum limit on most drops of 3 repeat chassis, and requires 5 chassis overall. Thus you end up taking things like Centurions, Trebuchets, etc. that you would otherwise have no reason to field.

If everything is balanced well, you'd have a reason to run, say, 2x Treb 2x Cent 2x Shadow Hawk 2x Blackjack as a force, and thus players would chose to do that. As it stands they're forced to do that through "artificial" rules.

Again, it's a game play term, not actually suggesting it's something "real." It's like "practicing" medicine or scientific theory. It doesn't mean what you think it does. It's all about the player making organic choices instead of forcing a limit because otherwise they would not.

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

And as for what you think leagues force you to run... I know of no single league wich forces a player to run Awsomes or Locusts... no idea where you are dreaming this up?

There are several leagues where you need to purchase 'mechs to utilize them, and other restrictions does in fact leave you needing to run other gear.

We haven't played in Proxis yet, but it's one such league I believe.

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

EDIT: Ghost heat does not force you to diversify the weapons, it only forces you to be intelligent while shooting said weapons. You can still run a 6PPC stalker, you just have to wait 0,5 seconds between shooting a PPC pair and you will notice absolutely no difference heat wise than firing 6 ppcs in single fire.

Not really. The reason nobody loads up on tons of Ghost Heat guns and then fires them two at a times has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.

The problem is this: When a 'mech is in a brawl and they expose their weak armor to you, you have less than a quarter second to capitalize on it. If you are firing 2 guns at a time every half second, that means you're going to get three salvos spread over a 'mech, instead of one into a single location to obliterate it.

While that might sound positive to you, all it's really done is forced us to swap to configs that still allow you to do that; with even more damage than just PPC boating.

PS: The 6 PPC Stalker was always free-kill level garbage, and is remembered as quite the boogeyman. The 4 PPC Stalkers is where you had to look out.

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

The only reason why players are diversifying is because other builds are easier to handle in a fight and they dont haev to worry about timing. That is all.

And again, that faster shot window. AC/20 + ER PPC for example is a great, ghost-heat free medium config.

[Victor Morson]

Buckminster, on 12 December 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

I also think he's using a fuzzier definition of an "artificial" restriction. I think any imposed restriction is artificial - weight limits, chassis limits, ECM limits, etc. His definition of "artificial" seems to focus more on chassis limits and equipment limits, but that weight limits are a "natural" part of BT.

It's pretty close.

This same terminology gets used a lot in RTS games. Basically, think of weight limits as money in this scenario:

If you hand an RTS player, say, 500,000 credits to buy units and then they buy 500 of the same unit, you have a balance problem as the player "naturally" steers towards just a small handful of units every single time.

If you cap specific units to set numbers to prevent that, forcing the player to make other choices with their money (or in our case, tonnage), when you have what's called an "artificial" limit opposed to making the other choices more attractive, and encouraging a blending through gameplay.

I hope this clears it up.

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Deffinitely, but the league isnt forcing that lance to field that Locust, it is the players own choice in fielding 3 Assaults which is in turn forcing themselves to run that Locust to stay within the weight limit imposed by the league.
They could have easily stayed within the 300 ton limit without running a single Locust if they wanted to... all they would need to do is select 4 lighter mechs such as 4 Catapults for example.

Pretty much nobody fields a Locust as a weight sink, and yes, using a Locust as a weight sink is an option in weight-only leagues. There are some leagues with outright equipment restrictions, however, that make bad 'mechs important.

For example, before the Shadow Hawk, the Trebuchet almost never appeared in any leagues. Ever. It was regarded as an inferior Centurion and the Black Jack was getting super popular.

But in Marik? We'd take Trebuchets on half our drops, because we were capped at 3 Centurions and needed a diverse 50 tonner.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[aniviron]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 December 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

You forgot about the invisible corner extensions on every object in the game... you can see long before you are actually able to shoot around a corner or over an object (Blackjacks, Battlemasters and Jagermechs profit from this as well).

You're also forgetting that invisible corner extensions still count as solid objects, and so if you don't walk your center line past them anyway, then your shots just hit the invisible wall 1m in front of you. I am an expert in this subject, as a long-time Awesome pilot.

[Victor Morson]

One of the big things that's nice about all-one-side 'mechs is you can BARELY peak your side out and fire.

[Jonathan Paine]

Perhaps a better guide for new players would be something along the lines of 'mechs to avoid, and a short reason why you should avoid said 'mechs.
For example:
Do not use the Spider 5V. The mech has only 2 hardpoints, energy, and they are restricted to the center torso which has only 2 critical slots. The Spider 5K has the same speed as a 5V, but adds 2 ballistics hardpoints to each arm. The only thing the 5V has got going for it is 12 jump jets, 12 jump jets are in no shape manner or form twice as good as having 6 jump jets. In fact, you are probably best off with 2 jump jets, which gives you great mobility with little tonnage cost.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Warchild Corsair, on 12 December 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

If Victor is right I am seriously considering quitting because I find playing in that kind of boring environmet simply dull. If the pplayers ruin this game by just running the same five Mechs with identical builds again and again just for the sake of winning then I am off playing something with more variety.

For the sake of the game I really do hope Koniving is right but the daily battlefield routine tells another story

However, that won't always be the case. The meta will change over time as weapons are buffed or nerfed. No one is forced to play according to the meta.

[Victor Morson]

TheCaptainJZ, on 12 December 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

However, that won't always be the case. The meta will change over time as weapons are buffed or nerfed. No one is forced to play according to the meta.

To be fair it is far more forgiving now than it was for the eight months we had the Gauss+PPC apocalypse.

Almost a full year of just two weapons will drive you mad.

[Konril]

Wow! This topic got incendiary quite fast. I don't think Helios was asking what he should be piloting but why people are piloting what they are piloting. Anyway...

HeliosRX, on 11 December 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

... I understand that there are considerations to be made for weapon hardpoints and actual in-game capabilities, but is there any underlying reason the game isn't full of Dragons/non-jumping Quickdraws (which are optimal 80 KPH mechs), Shadow Hawks/Wolverines (55 tonner jumpers, the holy grail of manoeuvrability and firepower) and Orion/Victors?

Buckminister seems to have hit the nail on the head here. PGI has changed the rules enough so that the ideal builds from tabletop are nowhere near ideal in MWO.

Engine sizes are not locked into weight*hex-speed increments. So a 5/8 is now a 5/7.5, and doing a 4.5/6.75 is perfectly valid. This actually kills any sense of an ideal weight for a given speed, but not the opposite of ideal speed for a given weight. So is a pretty significant game changer.

The hard-point system PGI uses does have some precedent, but is ultimately one of PGI's "house rules," and also a big game changer. The hard points do restrict what a mech is able to mount. So even if the mechs are not quite one of the ideal weights, people do choose certain mechs for their hard-point advantage.

Going in to some specific examples, the Dragon is something that on paper should be a spectacular mech. However in practice, it has a center torso "nose" that sticks out in front of the mech a lot. This makes it practically impossible to proctect the center torso from accurate fire no matter how you twist. Therefore, even though the Centurion is 10 tons lighter than the Dragon, it is much better at the same job. The flat and narrow torso and big arms allows the Centurion pilot to use the arms as a shield, so the center torso can be protected from incoming fire. This makes the Centurion much tougher to kill than the Dragon.

Jump jets on the Quickdraw are kind of silly, since dropping to 55 tons would save enough weight and space between the jets themselves and lighter engine to actually gain available weight. The Shadow Hawk is ideal for this. However until recently, the next lightest jump-capable mech from the Quickdraw was the 50 ton Trebuchet. So I suspect the Quickdraws are on their way out, but quite a few people may not have enough available money to replace their Quickdraws with Shadow Hawks just yet.

On paper the Jagermech, Catapult, and Cataphract are at an odd weight. At a similar speed, the Orion, Victor, or even Battlemaster would have more avaiable weight and armor. However these three mechs are special in that they are the only mechs in the heavy and assault categories that have ballistics hard points in more than one location. Try to fit two AC/10s or Gauss Rifles on an Orion or any assault mech and you find you just can't. There isn't enough space available. But you can do that easily on a Cataphract or Jagermech. For any ballistics fan, these mechs are the best you can get, as the only mechs with both the weight and space to fit more than one of the bigger cannons or more than two of the AC/5 or Ultra AC/5 cannons.

An important point to make about cannons currently. PGI chose to speed up the fire rate of all weapons significantly while still keeping heat sinks at the 1 heat per 10 second standard. Double Heat Sinks were even nerfed, being only 1.4 heat per 10 seconds after the first 10. So even though they are heavy and bulky, the fast fire rate combined with the low heat output makes all the cannons significantly better than lasers or even missiles for raw DPS. I know of nothing that can match the focused DPS of four AC/5s on a CTF-4X or Jagermech, while the ammo lasts. So obviously those mechs are going to be popular.

Actually, I know of nothing particularly wrong with the Orion. It does give you the most weight to work with and enough hard-point variety to make it a very versatile chassis. It's been described as a mini-Atlas by others. Unfortunately, it doesn't really do anything better than the Victor or Cataphract, so it's become unpopular. The jump jets and focus on arm mounted weapons on the Victor makes it more popular, even though it crosses the line into the assault mech category.

Does this help give some insight as to what's really going on?