41 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

Mr 144, on 13 December 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Shadey99 is wrong. There's no polite way of saying it.

No you are wrong. I test Artemis, TAG, BAP, and LRMs for more than a month across multiple mech platforms.

You know what, I don't care. So sure your right and I'm on crack? Then don't change what you do and waste your time. I did the math, I know my results as well as I can without running the servers. I'll continue to out play you.

[Charons Little Helper]

The only thing I disagree with you on Mr 144 is BAP. If you are running an LRM boat (almost entirely LRMs) then BAP should be a must. However - if you're running a hybrid (Atlas can run this - few others have the tonnage for both enough LRMs to be worth it, plus other weapons) you don't need BAP, because you're likely busy shooting at the offending ECM light anyway.

[Mr 144]

Charons Little Helper, on 13 December 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

The only thing I disagree with you on Mr 144 is BAP. If you are running an LRM boat (almost entirely LRMs) then BAP should be a must. However - if you're running a hybrid (Atlas can run this - few others have the tonnage for both enough LRMs to be worth it, plus other weapons) you don't need BAP, because you're likely busy shooting at the offending ECM light anyway.

Huh? If you're running a D-DC...than of course you don't need BAP...you have ECM and they don't interact very well...If any other Atlas, than your LRMs are very paltry supplemental damage of convinience and not something to be all that concerend about maxemizing...so I guess I don't understand your point?

Shadey99, on 13 December 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

No you are wrong. I test Artemis, TAG, BAP, and LRMs for more than a month across multiple mech platforms.

You know what, I don't care. So sure your right and I'm on crack? Then don't change what you do and waste your time. I did the math, I know my results as well as I can without running the servers. I'll continue to out play you.

lulz....good luck with that

Edited by Mr 144, 13 December 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Wow I was about to say this thread was a great discussion that lacked the usual "I'm right, Your wrong Jerk" posts where there was good discussion and point counter point..........how quickly it can turn.......

[Charons Little Helper]

Mr 144, on 13 December 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Huh? If you're running a D-DC...than of course you don't need BAP...you have ECM and they don't interact very well...If any other Atlas, than your LRMs are very paltry supplemental damage of convinience and not something to be all that concerend about maxemizing...so I guess I don't understand your point?

That was my point exactly. When the LRMs aren't the entire focus of the mech - BAP isn't needed. Though I would never take LRMs at all unless I could cut through AMS with at least LRM 25 - limiting the # of mechs which can take LRMs without them being the whole focus.

Though even as a secondary system on the Atlas - LRM 30 or so can certainly add up.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 13 December 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Mr 144]

well sure....everyone can say they did math, yo...that dosen't mean they have a clue

Artemis = +1
TAG = +1

Direct Fire Artemis + Self TAG = +2
Direct Fire Artemis Only = +1
Direct Fire self TAG Only = +1
Indirect Fire Artemis Only = 0
Indirect Self-TAG only = 0
Indirect Artemis + Spotter TAG = +1
Direct Fire Self-TAG + Spotter TAG = redundant +1
Direct Artemis + Spotter TAG = +2

Put that math in your pipe and smoke it

given a choice, for the Lurmer...Artemis is always > Self-TAG

Not taking BAP on a Lurmer should not even be a question...I can't believe there's people who seriously "don't believe in it"....lol...as if it's a question of faith...Bwaa Haa Haa Ha

Charons Little Helper, on 13 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

That was my point exactly. When the LRMs aren't the entire focus of the mech - BAP isn't needed. Though I would never take LRMs at all unless I could cut through AMS with at least LRM 25 - limiting the # of mechs which can take LRMs without them being the whole focus.

Though even as a secondary system on the Atlas - LRM 30 or so can certainly add up.

maybe....but my Orion sports 2xALRM15s (full-tube volleys) along with 2xAC5s and 2xMLs, and I wouldn't dream of sacrificing Artemis on the Lurms and taking TAG in lieu of one of the (only 2 energy points) self-defense MLs.....a perfect example of a hybrid build...nor would I consider dropping BAP for any reason...

Edited by Mr 144, 13 December 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Roadkill]

Tlords, on 11 December 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I've been thinking and for the love of it, I can't think why you would ever take an LRM10, when you could take 2 LRM5s.

In addition to limited hardpoints, the number of missile tubes also comes into play. Loading an LRM-15 onto a Mech that has 10 tubes effectively gives you a -10 and a -5 at the same time. On some Mechs you can effectively simulate lots of 10s and 5s by loading 15s or 20s into hardpoints that don't have that many tubes.

[Roadkill]

Mr 144, on 13 December 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

given a choice, for the Lurmer...Artemis is always > Self-TAG

For the most part I agree with you.

The only wrench in that is that on a big boat Artemis might be too heavy, while TAG might still fit. I have that problem on my BLR-1S (because at the moment I'm too cheap to buy it an XL), so I'm running 4 x LRM-15 with TAG. Once I feel like paying for another XL I'll have the tonnage to add Artemis, but I won't be dropping the TAG to do it.

Also, I get into a LOT of matches where there's no other TAG on my side. So at least for my Elo rating, self-TAG on an LRM boat is pretty much mandatory in order to get that bonus.

[Tombstoner]

one thing people forget to account for is hit detection may be causing damage loss for larger missile systems.
so yes 4 lrm5's may well be more effective due to better damage outputs if 12 out of 20 missiles registered as hits: a significant loss in damage potential.

[Prezimonto]

OneEyed Jack, on 12 December 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

You are correct that the benefits of Artemis on LRM5 is small, but that is not the question at hand. The question is why use larger launchers. Artemis is on of the reasons to use larger launchers, because it is so inefficient on 5-packs, that by taking 5-packs and saving that ton/crit, you also lose the benefit of the Artemis.

(Not directly related)
Shadey: The lock-on speed increase is significant.
Bob: 5-packs have a lower heat per launcher, but a higher heat per tube (4xLRM5=8 Heat, 1xLRM20=6 Heat)

because 5packs are so tight in spread without artemis, I don't have a problem CT killing things without it. Because LRM20's spread so much even with Artemis it's much harder to point damage on a single hard point.

LRM's need bone targeting followed by a complete rework of ECM mechanics to help balance them.

[Lykaon]

Tlords, on 11 December 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I've been thinking and for the love of it, I can't think why you would ever take an LRM10, when you could take 2 LRM5s. Two LRM5s fire faster and cooler than one LRM10, plus do not suffer from any ghost heat penalties.

In testing in matches and in game, 4 LRM5s core a mech faster than a single LRM20. So you have faster fire rate, easier time killing a mech, and weigh less in tonnage. This doesn't seem right. And to me, there needs to be a reason why you should always take an LRM20 over 4 LRM5s, an LRM15 over 3 LRM5s, and an LRM10 over 2 LRM5s.

The reason for one LRM 10 instead of 2 LRM 5s is only having one missile hardpoint. Otherwise you are absolutley correct.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Mr 144, on 13 December 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Not taking BAP on a Lurmer should not even be a question...I can't believe there's people who seriously "don't believe in it"....lol...as if it's a question of faith...Bwaa Haa Haa Ha

I've discussed not carrying a BAP in my own thread. (and received quite the response, with more than a few insults thrown in)

I don't find it adds that much, personally. if i have plenty of room, sure, i'll take it.

I also fully admit to having a skewed view as i always run with at least a friend, and stay near the main pack not out alone. but just because you feel like it is a must have does not mean we all do, nor does it make us stupid or bad.

i don't feel like listing out all my reasons again, so just take this a the grain of salt for the thread.

[Rhent]

Using Artemis with LRM 5's develops rapidly decreasing returning value. So, 4 LRM 5's cost 5 more tons and 4 more crit slots to use Artemis while 1 LRM 20 costs 1 ton and 1 crit slot. Artemis helps you rapidly gain lock.

I would only use LRM 5's when I could afford the artemis tonnage and if I could fire 4 of them at once to get a 20 pack on the target because 1 AMS eats 1 LRM 5.

[Khobai]

The real question is why would you ever use LRM10s? Theyre so bad. LRM10s have needed a buff for a very long time.

Even spamming LRM5s is bad IMO. For example, if youre playing an A1 and had to choose: six LRM5s or two LRM15s and four streak2s. Youre obviously better off with the streaks so you can defend yourself. Its also only two tons for artemis instead of six tons.

IMO the best launchers are LRM15s/LRM20s. Because all your other missile hardpoints can be used for streaks. And one thing all LRM boats need is to be able to defend themselves vs lights.

Quote

I've discussed not carrying a BAP in my own thread

Should always have BAP for your streaks. And LRM boats should always have streaks because the natural predator of LRM boats is light mechs and streaks counter light mechs. For example, my battlemaster 1S runs two LRM20s+Artemis, two streak2s+BAP, four medium lasers, and TAG. It also goes almost 80kph.

Not having streaks is just asking to get harassed by a Jenner that has more firepower than you do.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[Bobdolemite]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

The real question is why would you ever use LRM10s? Theyre so bad. LRM10s have needed a buff for a very long time.

Even spamming LRM5s is bad IMO. For example, if youre playing an A1 and had to choose: six LRM5s or two LRM15s and four streak2s. Youre obviously better off with the streaks so you can defend yourself. Its also only two tons for artemis instead of six tons.

IMO the best launchers are LRM15s/LRM20s. Because all your other missile hardpoints can be used for streaks. And one thing all LRM boats need is to be able to defend themselves vs lights.

My BLR-1S runs 4 x ALRM 10 and it does nicely, I usually fire them in groups of 2 with a small delay to kill GH, but have also used them chain fired on occasion. Against fast lights / mediums chainfire seems to increase leg damage as the missiles are constantly hitting behind the mech causing bits of damage until it lops off a leg and the big salvos come in.

Back before LRM's were buffed/nerfed into the floor I used to run 15's and 20's , very rarely would I run 10's and never 5's. Its only more recently that in order to satiate my LRM desire I have had to dial down the salvo size to 30-40. Its one of those issues thats hard to quantify because the problem can be part design philosophy and part HSR.

Perhaps if I ran in groups I would feel differently but in a PUG match I cant count on there to be a spotter, or even someone to hold locks for that matter. I cant rely on lights / fast mediums to watch my back while I launch "come get me" flares at the enemy. For me the mech has to be:

Not too slow (I like to stick to 64+ kph minimum if I can)
Heat Efficient (as much as possible)
Ammo heavy or efficient (either 1, cant usually have both)
Standard Engine (If possible)

In other words self sufficient.

Things with GH being as they are IMO 20's are out since anything 10+ coupled with this becomes a 20 itself, so either 2 x 20 2 x lrm 5 or just 2 x 20's (my old favorite of 2x20 2x15 is out due to penalties)

Things like missiles not registering, terrain clipping, losing locks / poor quality locks are 10 x more frustrating on larger salvos. The bigger the launcher the more you pay in terms of wasted ammo. Thats why ive opted to switch to LRM 10 for my boats, with not being able to count on the reliability of the missiles themselves I have to rely on expending less per salvo and carrying more ammo / support weapons.

Tried a true LRM boat a week or two ago and found it to be a real liability to myself and the team due to speed, heat, ammo etc. IMO the bigger launchers just tend to run so damn hot for me, even when I try to factor in things like GH. The 5 and the 10 dont seem to give me this issue, allowing me to actually play support and fight off lights at the same time. Honestly tho to each his own, ive seen people do well in todays meta with lrm 20 and lrm 15, its just that in my experience they look better on paper than in practice.

*Just to be clear, im using LRM 5 - 10 in lieu of 15-20 due to factors mentioned above, if there were some changes id love to go back to 15-20, I tend to agree they need a buff as well)

Edited by Bobdolemite, 19 December 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

My BLR-1S runs 4 x ALRM 10 and it does nicely,

Yeah id rather have x2 lrm20s and x2 streak2s instead. Same number of lrms, better anti-light capability, and you can still beat most heavies 1v1 in a brawl. All you lose is some ability to rock the target, but being able to adequately defend yourself in a brawl is more important. The LRM20s are also more efficient for tonnage and heat.

Quote

IMO the bigger launchers just tend to run so damn hot for me, even when I try to factor in things like GH. The 5 and the 10 dont seem to give me this issue

They shouldnt. The bigger launchers actually generate less heat for the same number of missiles.

LRM20 = 6 heat every 4.25 seconds
LRM10 = 4 heat every 3.25 seconds

Quote

The bigger the launcher the more you pay in terms of wasted ammo.

Well thats where positioning comes in. I typically dont launch missiles at targets over 600m away. And Ill almost always have direct LoS on them. Obviously some maps are better for LRMs than others, but on a map like alpine or caustic I can often rack up over 1000 damage with dual LRM20s.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[Mr 144]

FerrolupisXIII, on 19 December 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I've discussed not carrying a BAP in my own thread. (and received quite the response, with more than a few insults thrown in)

I don't find it adds that much, personally. if i have plenty of room, sure, i'll take it.

I also fully admit to having a skewed view as i always run with at least a friend, and stay near the main pack not out alone. but just because you feel like it is a must have does not mean we all do, nor does it make us stupid or bad.

i don't feel like listing out all my reasons again, so just take this a the grain of salt for the thread.

No really...I'm very open to discussion...link you're thread 'cause I musta missed it if you don't wanna cross. I just don't understand why you would leave yourself sucepitble to a single ECM light shut-down without BAP if you want any legitimate LRM contribution. Notice, I did not say primary contribution....just serious contribution.

The post I quoted was in response to "targeting" mechs inside of the ECM bubble....and for THAT reason, I agree it's dumb. The point still remains that BAP is a "defensive" measure against being shut-down by a light while targeting in a distance.

[Lyoto Machida]

Can anyone here logically explain why 2x20 and 2x5 doesn't trigger ghost heat while 2x15 and 2x10 does, even though the total number of tubes are the same?

[Bobdolemite]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 December 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Can anyone here logically explain why 2x20 and 2x5 doesn't trigger ghost heat while 2x15 and 2x10 does, even though the total number of tubes are the same?

not to be a {Richard Cameron} (since you asked for a real answer) but Ghost Heat is simply a poorly thought out concept.

The real reason why is because they decided to make weapons (heat jump) to the largest weapon (of the same type) fired within .5 seconds of one another. In the case of 2 x LRM 10 and 2 x LRM 15, if you fire all four you will get the same heat penalty you would if you had fired 4 x LRM 15. The LRM 10's {heat jump) into LRM 15's since they were fired together.

LRM 5 however does not have the same GH functionality of 10/15/20, they do not count toward the GH penalty thus can be fired at normal heat along with LRM 20's.

But again you asked for a logical answer.... and there simply isnt one available.

Edited by Bobdolemite, 21 December 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I did extensive testing on tube count/launcher size a month or two ago.

I was thinking about doing the same thing, but never got around to it. So let me ask you this, maybe you (or anyone else who reads this) know. If a 5 missile salvo is not improved by Artemis, how much of an improvement in grouping does an LRM10 get?