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How Do You Build Your Mechs?


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#21 zudukai

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostBuckminster, on 13 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I don't necessarily agree with this.

Granted, on most builds, DHS is a must. But at 1.5 million it's also expensive, and there may be other things you can do that will have an impact for less cost.

And then there are mechs (my Shadow Hawks, for example) which do just fine with SHS. Sure, DHS will free up some weight, but it's minimal gain for a lot of money.

i respectfully disagree. DHS are a critical upgrade giving your heat cap twice as much headroom regardless of dissapation.

#22 Kai Harper

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:20 PM

The only mech I don't have DHS on is my Commando...on every other mech I have, it's a must, I agree. There are precious few viable builds where DHS isn't a cornerstone upgrade.

#23 Buckminster

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:31 PM

Maybe I should have worded myself more clearly. It's not that DHS isn't a useful upgrade, but it is not the first thing I do.

Look at my Hawk-2H: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...203eb8cd23ddd2c

I know, kind of a goofy build, I wanted to keep it super stock - same weapon systems but upgraded. But with the 13 SHS I have on there, heat is not an issue. I may have a higher cap with DHS, but if I'm not overheating the SHS I have, increased cap room is an unnecessary upgrade.

Now, I will eventually put DHS on it, but that's primarily so that I can free up 3 tons of space for stuff like ammo.

Edited by Buckminster, 13 December 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#24 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostBuckminster, on 13 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I don't necessarily agree with this.


Then you should start!

View PostBuckminster, on 13 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Granted, on most builds, DHS is a must. But at 1.5 million it's also expensive, and there may be other things you can do that will have an impact for less cost.

And then there are mechs (my Shadow Hawks, for example) which do just fine with SHS. Sure, DHS will free up some weight, but it's minimal gain for a lot of money.


DHS impacts your free engine HS and that is why it is worthwhile. Always pick it up. Every time.

So far the only build that benefits from SHS over DHS is hilariously the 3x Gauss Ilya Muromets, but that is literally a joke build.

View PostLauLiao, on 13 December 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Not so sure about this.


You should be.

You CANNOT show me a build that cannot be improved vastly by adding Endo. I challenge you to try.

#25 Void Angel

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:


Never ever ever, ever, EVER true.

Adding Ferro is optional on top of Endo, but Endo should be on EVERY 'mech. If a 'mech is lacking Endo it's a very bad design.

There are literally no good non-endo designs, at all.

Sorry, but that's not correct. Endo-Steel is usually a superior option, but exceptions most certainly exist.

#26 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:


Never ever ever, ever, EVER true.

Adding Ferro is optional on top of Endo, but Endo should be on EVERY 'mech. If a 'mech is lacking Endo it's a very bad design.

There are literally no good non-endo designs, at all.


Rofl.

Either you don't run with many guns, or you run super hot. DHS take up mad space at 3 crits each, and the number one reason not to use Endo is to make room for more DHS. Sure, most builds will benefit, and in some cases an otherwise-full build can take it to bump up engine rating (and gain crit-free DHS as a bonus), but any real energy boat is gonna be running into space issues long before it encounters weight problems.

Edit: Just went through my mechbays. I have 41 mechs currently, and fully 6 have standard internals. They don't have the space for Endo, and would be sacrificing a lot to add it. They're mostly assaults, and they're mostly energy-heavy. That means they have plenty of payload weight already and need a bunch of space for DHS - exactly the scenario where Endo might not be worth taking.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 13 December 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#27 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 13 December 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Sorry, but that's not correct. Endo-Steel is usually a superior option, but exceptions most certainly exist.


No they don't. Every one of those is both a Frakenpug Ghost Heat nightmare that aren't worth considering in concept but when I went to fix them one thing jumped out at me:

Taking a massively stupid combination of weapons to generate maximum heat and then STUFFING the 'mech full of DHS and going "Durr, can't fit Endo in here!" isn't proving Endo bad, it's proving that the 'mech design is massively and irreparably flawed.

With a little smarter weapon load outs, you can fit Endo AND keep cool AND do just as much damage.

View PostLevi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 December 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Either you don't run with many guns, or you run super hot. DHS take up mad space at 3 crits each, and the number one reason not to use Endo is to make room for more DHS. Sure, most builds will benefit, and in some cases an otherwise-full build can take it to bump up engine rating (and gain crit-free DHS as a bonus), but any real energy boat is gonna be running into space issues long before it encounters weight problems.


Anyone taking a very hot 'mech will take DHS, because again, it impacts the free engine heatsinks.

If you combine this with a large engine like a 325-350, you gain even more free heatsinks that get the effect.

Thus any energy boat will be running a large engine; it's just that energy boats are horrible with Ghost Heat. Otherwise you'd see 6 Large Laser XL 390/400 Battlemasters dominating the field.

PS:

Better Endo Stalker
Vastly improved Endo Atlas
Vastly Improved Endo Atlas #2

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 December 2013 - 02:19 PM.


#28 Buckminster

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:


Then you should start!

DHS impacts your free engine HS and that is why it is worthwhile. Always pick it up. Every time.

So far the only build that benefits from SHS over DHS is hilariously the 3x Gauss Ilya Muromets, but that is literally a joke build.

Your missing part of my point. Say I have a stock Shadow Hawk 2H. I'd rather spend that 1.5 million on ES, a UAC, Streaks, and extra ammo and extra armor than on DHS. I'm not saying DHS isn't a good upgrade, I'm just saying it shouldn't always be your first upgrade.

Edited by Buckminster, 13 December 2013 - 02:39 PM.


#29 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostBuckminster, on 13 December 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Your missing part of my point. Say I have a stock Shadow Hawk 2H. I'd rather spend that 1.5 million on ES, a UAC, Streaks, and extra ammo and extra armor than on DHS. I'm not saying DHS isn't a good upgrade, I'm just saying it shouldn't always be your first upgrade.


Generally I don't even outfit a 'mech until I have about an extra couple milion cbills, then set it all up in one go before driving it.

But if you plan on taking it on the field half-done then sure, that's not a bad way to look at it. As long as it's on the upgrade list, it doesn't necessarily have to be the first thing you do.

I wasn't even really considering anyone driving a half-done 'mech to make money to finish it, but I should have, it's probably more common than not.

#30 Kai Harper

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:09 PM

Wait, Victor conceding something? This is unheard of! =P I think it's raining bacon outside...

#31 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:21 PM

View PostKai Harper, on 13 December 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Wait, Victor conceding something? This is unheard of! =P I think it's raining bacon outside...


Because I generally setup my 'mechs before I drive them (this is just a preference, nothing wrong with doing it the other way)?

Or because I said there's no reason to ever drive a non-endo 'mech? 'cause that's pretty much fact.

#32 zudukai

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

those loadouts have vastly different range profiles as well as intended roles, you cannot say that they are upgrades because they are not able to stand side by side and fight like the other.

try again.

#33 Kai Harper

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:43 PM

I always set up mine before I pilot them as well, don't worry. XD I'm just used to you being very much 'My way or the highway', so it was refreshing to see you basically say 'well fair enough'.

#34 Dawnstealer

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:51 PM

First, I go on Smurfy's, as mentioned by others.

Then I bump the armor up to max. Then I usually try to design around a concept and heat, while stuffing as big an engine as possible in there. I've discovered that Alphas matter a lot less than maneuverability and not shutting down at really inopportune times. I might get fewer kills that way, but I live a lot longer.

#35 Rasc4l

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostBuckminster, on 13 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I don't necessarily agree with this.

Granted, on most builds, DHS is a must. But at 1.5 million it's also expensive, and there may be other things you can do that will have an impact for less cost.

And then there are mechs (my Shadow Hawks, for example) which do just fine with SHS. Sure, DHS will free up some weight, but it's minimal gain for a lot of money.


I used to think so as well until I overheated my ML+4MG spider in terra therma. If you wanna save money and simultaneously gimp your build, then SHS is the way to go.

#36 Turist0AT

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:57 PM

Building a mech has a couple of procces it goes thru.

1: First and foremost: Decide on DHS(only one or two of my mechs run on SHS), Endo maybe Armis..armyst... missile thing.

2: Tweek the armor, no need head, ajust rear and front torso numbers, no need arms, no need legs and get it to a nice round number(Some mechs need arm or leg armour, but it depends)

3: Packing in a light "standard" loadout, MPL,AC5, SRM6,Legs full of Ammo, usually filling all the hardpoints.

4: Then putting in the heaviest engine and see, how am i doing on, heat, speed, tonnage, firepower.

5: From there is all about tweeking. No need that speed, put a bigger gun instead, that mech can handle XL, put more heavy guns. OOh if i put LPL instead of PPC i can squeez in another heat sink. oh wow heat efficency 0.9.... thats not good... meh i chainfire. :)

Or you put 4PPCs in the quickdraws torso becus it looks badass and find the engine that is light enough,

Edited by Turist0AT, 13 December 2013 - 04:00 PM.


#37 zagibu

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:12 PM

I always start with empty mech in smurfy's, then add max armor, reduce leg armor to tolerable levels so that free tonnage is divisible by 0.5 without rest, then add weapons I like, necessary ammunition, then the engine.

From there on I play around until I have satisfactory speed, armor, firepower and heat efficiency.

#38 Victor Morson

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:38 PM

View Postzudukai, on 13 December 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

those loadouts have vastly different range profiles as well as intended roles, you cannot say that they are upgrades because they are not able to stand side by side and fight like the other.

try again.


The other 'mechs range profiles were "All over the place." They were Ghost Heat violating and overloaded with DHS to make up for that fact. Absolutely terrible designs at all range profiles.

They were literally designed to not be good at anything, to run really hot, and then stuffed full of DHS so someone can say "See I can't fit Endo!!!" A good 'mech does not need every single critical jammed with DHS.

PS: They fit pretty much the same range profile even with the PPC minimum range, anyway, after the refit. Far, far better 'mechs that would absolutely decimate the original counterparts, no question.

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 December 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#39 Void Angel

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:


No they don't. Every one of those is both a Frakenpug Ghost Heat nightmare that aren't worth considering in concept but when I went to fix them one thing jumped out at me:

Taking a massively stupid combination of weapons to generate maximum heat and then STUFFING the 'mech full of DHS and going "Durr, can't fit Endo in here!" isn't proving Endo bad, it's proving that the 'mech design is massively and irreparably flawed.

With a little smarter weapon load outs, you can fit Endo AND keep cool AND do just as much damage.



Anyone taking a very hot 'mech will take DHS, because again, it impacts the free engine heatsinks.

If you combine this with a large engine like a 325-350, you gain even more free heatsinks that get the effect.

Thus any energy boat will be running a large engine; it's just that energy boats are horrible with Ghost Heat. Otherwise you'd see 6 Large Laser XL 390/400 Battlemasters dominating the field.

PS:

Better Endo Stalker
Vastly improved Endo Atlas
Vastly Improved Endo Atlas #2


View Postzudukai, on 13 December 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

those loadouts have vastly different range profiles as well as intended roles, you cannot say that they are upgrades because they are not able to stand side by side and fight like the other.

try again.

Plus usually lower damage and crappier heat efficiency in every case. You also added PPCs to Atlases, particularly to brawling Atlases, which tells me you have no idea how to drive that chassis. Feel free to message me for remedial instruction, but that's really outside the scope of this thread.

So, not only are your builds inferior in combat, they're actually repurposed to do things that the chassis is bad at.

Aside from that, you're not even understanding objections you quote yourself! Witness your complete misrepresentation of Levi's point about DHS and space.

Edited by Void Angel, 13 December 2013 - 04:45 PM.


#40 Mercer Skye

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:56 PM

Random thoughts on the topic (TLDR Stuff, read at your own peril; you have been warned)

I'm going to disagree on the previously aforemetioned 'better' Atlas builds, simply for the fact that regular PPCs on a brawler is bad, and you should feel bad, and the sustainable dps plummets swapping the extra DHS for Endo. This is an argument though that I don't think will help the OP out at all. It's been going on since the break of the BT universe.

As far as DHS > SHS. This is true. The ONLY exception to the 'Always upgrade DHS, always' rule, in my most humble opinion, is in the very rare situations where you are running practically or quite literally heat neutral. Locusts aren't exactly considered awesome, but if you go with just an 'improved' 1V (Quad Mguns, MPlas), it sits at roughly a 1.9 heat rating with SHS. I really, really am not going to suggest someone drop 1.5mil to eke out an extra tenth of a heat rating. But that's it, anything that can run 1.8 or better with SHS, that's it, if you can't even see 1.5 with SHS, upgrade to DHS.

As far as building a 'mech goes; First and foremost, a little research. While grinding c-bills to make that 'mech purchase, check the stat charts on Smurfy's. Some 'mechs have better ranges of motion (Great to consider if you want to brawl with something), others (but not many), will have differing engine caps, affecting how fast you can go, how well you can maneuver.

Forums. Filllllled with suggestions and concept, and arguing. But take it all with a grain of salt. But this is more or less the best place you're going to find to figure out if the rig you're wanting to buy is going to fit the role you envision. Thinking a Locust 3S could make a good missile boat? (Don't, don't ever do that), maybe a rig with only two energy points would be viable as an energy sniper? (Might be it has low hanging arms and now jumpjets. i.e-not a good energy sniper).



All the blah blah stuff aside;

You've picked the role you want to fill.

Are you going to be backline, mid-range, or frontline? This determines if you should be 'lightly','moderately', or 'heavily' armored. This is just a heuristic, if you don't feel you have enough armor, you don't have enough armor. Now, if you consistently leave matches with parts that never get touched, or never go down to the internals....there might be too much armor there. (What? that's contradictory to what you just....ohhhhh)

Endo

...I'm in the 'not always the best option' camp. But I'm also in the 'experience will tell you when not to use it' camp. Some rigs it's darn expensive to upgrade to Endo. Personally, Assaults are a 'hand-waggle' situation. I see all that tonnage, I'm trying to cram firepower in it. Endo is going to get in the way of items that need a lot of crit space. To compound the issue, the big engines they need usually have an adequate number of heatsink/slots to keep the rig decently cool. But maybe not cool enough for your liking or skill level. Victor and Void already both posted some builds up that show the sacrifices you make for Endo over Efficiency. You get more bang, but don't get to use it as much (i.e- less sustained dps, less heat efficient). BUT, that doesn't mean don't Endo. If you're good at using cover, and engaging in 'bursts,' you can eat that, because you're likely fighting in alphas, not standing toe to toe. NOW, on the other hand, if you're keen on getting into toe to toes, those Victor builds are going to see you shutdown before your foe (or you should assume).

Enough about Endo (Can seriously right essays on it). Weapons.

There are two ways to go, in my opinion. One range, or all range. Now, don't think this means that you shouldn't have anything to cover your butt if something gets close. But don't hamper your intended main-role either trying to cover all bases. But really, when was the last time the Mguns on a missile boat scared you away from staying in that 179and Under LRM free zone? Some MLas's? Right. You just need something that's going to help those helping you scrape the Lights off. OR, you build evenly across all ranges. So in that Catapult A1 (Please don't ever buy an A1), you ONLY have missile options. So, a 'good' A1 is not going to go all 6 hardpoints as LRMs, 4 will be LRMs (2x 15s, 2x 5s, imo), and 2 will be something short range (SSRM would be the most efficient fit, likely)

Now, if they were to ever implement Med. Range Missiles (MRMs), you could build the rig to have a constant feed of max efficiency missile raining down on targets (Wouldn't THAT be fun?)

Fine tune. Since we've been given this awesome drop system where we don't know where our jackass flight crews are going to be dropping us off, you need to make sure your rig can handle the roughest situations. If you're overheating after two shots in the Caldera on Caustic.....you need to rethink your battleplan. (Testing Grounds, ftw). Better yet, if you've built something that can overheat in Frozen City....

Sustained Ballistics vs Boom Ballistics. AC20 weighs less than two Ultra AC5s. So why go heavier and take that chance to jam? Because the UAC5s fire faster, and put out more damage over the course of a fight than the AC20 does. The downside? Other than that they jam? Is that the damage can be spread out. That AC20 is going to knock an arm off first contact, the UAC5 is going to need a steady bead over a couple seconds. So, is your rig going to be relatively 'clumpy' (Atlas), or will it be able to keep that bead (SHD). Are you brawling? or are you attacking at range? Clumpy, brawling Atlas can make really good use of twin UAC5s whereas it might just as well not have ballistics in some matches carrying a AC20.

Pulse Lasers vs Reg Lasers. Same thing applies as above. If your rig is just not quick enough to keep a sustained beam on a target, pulse is a better option. It's hotter, heavier, and shorter range, sure, but if you're not getting even 1pt of damage out of the 'better' laser, who cares?

Missiles. Now this is where it gets funky. One LRM5 might seem a waste, but it's low heat, takes up relatively little space, and can aid your missile boats by eating up AMS ammo. That would also mean don't waste any missile gear on it. So, when is the right time to start placing missile gear on a rig? My rules of thumb here; Never use Narc (it's a tool for teammates to use to help you out). For every 5 missiles over ten, add a piece of missile gear. You go from a 'trollololol' LRM10 up to a 15, use Artemis. If you're rocking a LRM20 (hopefully shot in 'waves') add a Beagle, and if you step up to 'minimum boating salvo' LRM25 (a 15 and 10 or 20 and 5) , add that final piece with TAG. Missiles are a lifestyle, not a hobby, though. To make any real use of them, you're going to be dedicating an awful lot of crit space to them. So, boat or troll, don't try to do both. 30 missiles fired without any assistance might as well be fired into the dirt.

So, that Battlemaster 1G you've got with the LRM20 and no other missile gear to support it?....../headshake.

This has been longwinded enough, and you can talk 'theory of 'mechcrafting' all night (for some), I just hope some of this is helpful to somebody (At least anyone whose eyes are still intact)

edit: Didn't say a thing about engines, in all of that.....this one is quick though. Watch closely to just how much extra speed you get from upgrading an engine. Unless it's getting you an extra heatsink, 3kph extra probably isn't worth however many millions the upgrade is going to run you. You can eyeball about how fast is good enough for you. Drop that engine in on Smurfy's and see what you can fit in. Doesn't even have to be what you want, just get yourself an idea of how much will fit in.

Edited by Mercer Skye, 13 December 2013 - 05:01 PM.






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