304 replies to this topic

[Dustmuffins]

Ertur, on 09 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

This list is exactly why we have plague, and smallpox, and violins on TV.
Shame on you.
Shame.

Mav is actually responsible for genital ******, babies crying, and the cancellation of Firefly.

[MavRCK]

Dustmuffins, on 09 February 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Mav is actually responsible for genital ******, babies crying, and the cancellation of Firefly.

I got my Jane's Hat -- everyone else can go to hell.

My Dragonslayer's name is Reavers.

Edited by MavRCK, 09 February 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Victor Morson, on 09 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Did you just compare telling new players which pieces of equipment are best to the plague and smallpox? lol

I know some people want to live in a bubble where bad chassis are fine, but I'm happy someone's bursting it.

I think you missed Sarcasm there.

MavRCK, on 09 February 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

I got my Jane's Hat -- everyone else can go to hell.

My Dragonslayer's name is Reavers.

Lol, god I miss that show.


On a more serious note, what do you think PGI will need to do to make sure that ERMLs aren't going to generate more heat than LLs? I understand many of these weapons will be coming in soon (relatively), and I'm trying to figure out with the new heat rates how they might function, and it seems as if the range return for heat is not worth it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 09 February 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Ertur]

Victor Morson, on 09 February 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Did you just compare telling new players which pieces of equipment are best to the plague and smallpox? lol

I know some people want to live in a bubble where bad chassis are fine, but I'm happy someone's bursting it.

This isn't my fault, I included the sarcasm tag and everything!!!! Wasn't "violins on TV" a big enough clue just on its own??!?!?!eleven!!1!

The internets are broken.

[MavRCK]

Ertur, on 09 February 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

This isn't my fault, I included the sarcasm tag and everything!!!! Wasn't "violins on TV" a big enough clue just on its own??!?!?!eleven!!1!

The internets are broken.

It happens.. It's really easy to mistake tone over the internet.

You have someone-in-game ride you and trash-talk you and it sounds horrible.. but if we were playing basketball, one on one live and face-to-face, those momma jokes would be funny...

It's all good

Hence why I say.. watch the videos -- there's more there than I can type / explain / etc. And you can hear my tone and expressions which better represent what I write in this thread.

Here are my weekend stats for the Ember, Dragonslayer and Muromets -- a mix of solo dropping and grouping in 2-3-4 man groups:

EMBER 27 18 9 2.00 27 14 1.93 7,699 21,614 02:27:35

DRAGON SLAYER 28 22 6 3.67 37 10 3.70 15,038 23,422
02:16:34

ILYA MUROMETS 51 34 17 2.00 69 30 2.30 24,983 40,385 04:23:03

All great mechs.

[Ertur]

Ember is a very solid mech, and since the rest of the variants for that chassis look to be roughly similar it will be good to see the cbill variants hit the field. I'd expect several of them to be top tier lights. Ember looks to be one already, once we can get x2 Basics and speed tweak on it.

[IraqiWalker]

Ertur, on 10 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Ember is a very solid mech, and since the rest of the variants for that chassis look to be roughly similar it will be good to see the cbill variants hit the field. I'd expect several of them to be top tier lights. Ember looks to be one already, once we can get x2 Basics and speed tweak on it.

It's already a beast, with that upgrade I don't think I'll play anything other than it and my Commando.

[Victor Morson]

Ertur, on 10 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Ember is a very solid mech, and since the rest of the variants for that chassis look to be roughly similar it will be good to see the cbill variants hit the field. I'd expect several of them to be top tier lights. Ember looks to be one already, once we can get x2 Basics and speed tweak on it.

The Ember will be nothing but a bad memory when the model with 7 energy hardpoints and 2 AMS hardpoints is introduced. A pack of those will laugh in the face of Streaks, spit in the face of LRM 'mechs, and carry more raw firepower than the Jenner doing it.

The Ember will ultimately be the worst variant of the best light chassis in the game, most likely, making it "decent enough for a gimmicky pug 'mech" ultimately.

In other words expect the Ember to fall into obscurity but the Firestarter to dominate the field.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 February 2014 - 10:50 PM.

[Ertur]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

The Ember will be nothing but a bad memory when the model with 7 energy hardpoints and 2 AMS hardpoints is introduced. A pack of those will laugh in the face of Streaks, spit in the face of LRM 'mechs, and carry more raw firepower than the Jenner doing it.

The Ember will ultimately be the worst variant of the best light chassis in the game, most likely, making it "decent enough for a gimmicky pug 'mech" ultimately.

In other words expect the Ember to fall into obscurity but the Firestarter to dominate the field.

With small lasers only, perhaps. The firepower for the FS9-S is going to be severely hampered by its weight. The Jenner-F with 6MLas runs hot as it is, with no tonnage available for more than 4 DHS and 2 JJ with a heat level of 1.26 (232 armor, XL300). Since the Firestarters max engine is .5 T lighter, it can start with an extra JJ.
Now, what trade-off do you make to squeeze in extra energy weapons and AMS? Slower engine? XL's are a sword that cuts two ways -- they weigh less in general, which means you have to drop more speed to save weight. Fewer heatsinks? It's hot enough already, trading in heat sinks for more lasers is counterproductive. Also, you probably don't want more MLas, after 6 there's ghost heat. Less armor? And we haven't even started talking about the 2 or 3 tons for a dual AMS yet. Dropping two JJ get's a ton, and is reasonable enough, but that still leaves much more to trade.

With max engine, ES, FF, and nearly max armor (like the Jenner at 232), the Firestarter has 11.5 tons to work with. That's the limitation that will keep it from being overwhelmingly superior to the Jenner F. The advantage for the Firestarter K is that 6E are in the arms, which allows for adjusting fire more quickly. The disadvantage for the Firestarter K is that 6E are in the arms, which get blown off more easily.

edit: I had S as the one with 6E in the arms, and I was wrong it's the K. The S has 4E in the arms, 3E in the torso, and is the only dual AMS FS9. Second edit because I used "it's" where an "its" should go. My English teacher will haunt me.

Edited by Ertur, 11 February 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[SnagaDance]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

The Ember will be nothing but a bad memory when the model with 7 energy hardpoints and 2 AMS hardpoints is introduced. A pack of those will laugh in the face of Streaks, spit in the face of LRM 'mechs, and carry more raw firepower than the Jenner doing it.

Assuming ML and 2 tons of AMS ammo that's 2,5 tons that need to come from somewhere compared to that 6ML Jenner (4 tons in comparison to my own JR7-F build that has no AMS). So what would you choose to sacrifice?

Edit: Huh, Ertur just beat me to it.

Edited by SnagaDance, 11 February 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[RickySpanish]

I'm of the opinion that both ballistic variants of the Firestarter will be quite good, since each and every build on the chassis will be gated by heat generation vs crit slots for heat sinks before weight even becomes a consideration.

[MavRCK]

I think the 2 machine guns won't be enough.. 4 works really well when crit hunting.. I discussed this with Wispsy (one of the best light pilots in MWO) and he's of the same opinion.

http://www.reddit.co...or_mc_purchase/

Next week I'll buy the S and K for cbills -- dual AMS (4 medium or perhaps 7 small and try it) and 5 medium lasers in the arms are excellent builds.

I also want to point out some basic tactics:

If you're playing assault and you push to the enemy's base -- don't stop halfway and group up in a bunch of 10 mechs for repeated artillery and airstrikes.

I know it's obvious.. but holy crap, you'd not believe how many games I had like this..

Also, if someone takes the time to press the Y button -- give you coordinates of where you should go -- at least 1-4 people should consider doing it...

This super-over-powered Y button is the best form of communication we have without voice in-game...

Come on peeps -- communicate!

Edited by MavRCK, 11 February 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Ertur]

Don't flamers also do crit damge to exposed components? Smurfy thinks so, and at over double the rate of MG's. 2xMG 2x flamers using the torso energy spots CT may still fill that role.

Just hotter.

I'll be getting the H next to test that theory out.

Y button is underrated. Ooops wrong thread.

[MavRCK]

Ertur, on 11 February 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Don't flamers also do crit damge to exposed components? Smurfy thinks so, and at over double the rate of MG's. 2xMG 2x flamers using the torso energy spots CT may still fill that role.

Just hotter.

I'll be getting the H next to test that theory out.

Y button is underrated. Ooops wrong thread.

I don't know the overall DPS of the flamer when you include its % chance to crit -- it is greater than machine guns.

However, MGs range are 120-240m (vs flamer's 90m) and they are heat neutral (flamers generate heat) - so you can use them when you're overheating from using your medium lasers.

[Bront]

NRP, on 06 February 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

The one thing that feels weird about the Ember is the nearly non-existant torso pitch. This thing really can't look up or down very much at all. Other than that, it's a crit monster late in the game.

IraqiWalker, on 06 February 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Yeah, even with the Elite bonus kicking in later, it won't have as much as a commando or a jenner, but it's good enough honestly, any more torso twist/pitch on this mech and we'll probably never see anything BUT Firestarters.

It's the lowest in the game. The Atlas is better (by 1 degree). It's a balancing factor, and it's something in favor of the Raven/Jenner.

[Magna Canus]

I have been running a FS9-S with XL295, 6ML, 2AMS+2Ammo (Plus Level 2 AMS range module), max engine, 232 armor, and 3JJ.

I can nearly ignore LRM5 spammers now and have significant protection from SSRM boats with the dual AMS.

The 4 ML in the arms do well and the 2 ML in the CT keep me from being tempted to do a Jenner F 6ML alpha too often (circumstancial bonus) while still being able to when I really want to (behind a Stalker for example).

The 6E hardpoint allocation still leaves me with enough firepower even if 1 or 2 arms are taken off, which I see as an advantage over the Jenner F because the arms can be used as shields for survivability (near impossible on the Jenner F) and still leave me 4 or at worst 2 ML to fight with (survival > #of ML).

The shoulder hit boxes are durable enough that a lost arm usually does not also mean a lost ST and therefore game over.

The FS9 also has more slots than the Jenner F which brings its own advantages.

Right now I would say that the FS9-S is > Than the Jenner F or at least on par.

[Bront]

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

It's guys like Maverik and his *I like* spamming supporters that are ruining this game....

Oooh, fun! May I?

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

Advertising their rotten chease builds where they ( the builds) should just be taken out of game.

It's cheese (Not that I should be lecturing anyone on spelling, just point it out since you got it wrong twice).

But beyond that, the Meta, which yes, is to some extent cheese, is there because it works. That said, the Meta changes between PUGs, 4 Mans, Casual 12 mans, and high end competitive 12 mans, and even Mav addresses that. I also think that no one here supporting this thread doesn't think they could do more to balance the game and make it better.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

All this bloated competitive bull in a game that isn't even near to finish is based on a meta that will change again and again.

This list is updated regularly, but often, even non-cheese builds are better in the mechs listed as Teir 1. The Meta changes when balance changes or new content comes out. There's been little of either since the Phoenix pack outside of hitbox changes, till this month.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

Spamming this braggy advertisements on twitch and youtube at this state of the game will only cause an influx of some CoD style kids and promote this very mindset.

You're right. Clearly we don't want more people playing this game, regardless of where they come from. This game is ours! </sarcasm>

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

Things all real Mechwarrior and BT fans abhore.

So I'm not supposed to like more people in the game? Or apparently I'm not a "real" MW/BT fan. Maybe I should sell my 20 year old Geo-hex set and give up running convention BT games.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

All your *hey ho competition yo bro* postings are sparky and flashy and will only drag this game down the mainstream drain it is tethering to the whole time.

Oh, I get it. Mech-Hipsterism. I liked giant robots before it was cool and all.

Or, maybe he's just trying to help players improve their game, because when you get better and succeed more, you're happy, and when you're happy, you tend to stick around, and the game we love thrives.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

Start to think stop to brag.

Ok, I have no clue what to make of this sentance. I'll be honest here.

The Basilisk, on 08 February 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

Your intentions may be good trying to help new players to get more easy into the game but atm you and other competitive style players are doing more dmg to the game with advertising chease than the Smokejaguars did to the city of Edo.

He's not trying to parade the meta as all that was, is, and shall be, he's simply trying to give new players a chance to find success early, rather than leave in frustration. Some of this wouldn't be nessessary if there was better balance and better documentation, but there's not, and so it falls to players to create it. Beyond that, this has always been a good open discussion thread about how mechs are played and where they can thrive. I know Mav's taken some of my feedback when I haven't agreed with him. This thread is very useful for new players, and vets alike, and I've viewed it as a great place to discuss mechs from a performance standpoint.

Now, you want to be constructive? Rather than throw out insults, group everyone who supports this list into a "not real MW/BT fans" page, dismiss attracting new players, and rage against the Meta, either give constructive balancing feedback to PGI elsewhere, or debate constructively ways to improve the list.

MavRCK, on 08 February 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

You choose that V6, V8 in your pickup... That's a build choice you make. I'll tell ya if the Chevy, the Ford, or the Toyota is the better truck.

I don't care how rickety is is, the fact that I can mount an AC20 on the Nissan makes it a superior choice.

[Bront]

MavRCK, on 09 February 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

I think in my first or second video from a year I ago I discuss all the lights currently viable and how to balance them versus the 'then' favourite - Raven 3L.

I use the meta favourite and buff the other mechs to the standard of the meta. I think this is a more consistent, fair, and ideal approach to balance.

Nerf'ing things, in my experience of high-level gaming and beta-testing, tends to create unexpected results and imbalances the game for a temporary period until a new balance (meta) is reached - inconsistency and unpredictability are two things players generally hate.

Hence: small nerfs, moderate buffs is what I promote for game balance.

There are are a few things in the Nerf/Buff regard.

1) Things that are obviously and clearly superior usually need a slight nerf, because at some point it's easier to nerf one thing than it is to buff everything else.

2) Nerfs are indeed best done slowly, and knowing everything they touch.

3) Buffs should be treated with similar care. You don't want to have to be constantly buffing everything to balance out prior buffs.

4) Have a true "goal". In the MWO case, perhaps it's a combination of match time and survivability, but having a goal will generally give you some idea of not only what you want to buff/nerf, but which direction is best.

[Victor Morson]

While it is still too early to say with certainty, the FS9-S is almost unquestionably going to be the top tier light, replacing the Jenner completely.

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 February 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[MavRCK]

Just pointing out... another week without any weapon balance changes... is that like 6 months? (I don't count Narc.)