81 replies to this topic

[Iqfish]

How about we just group up and go to PGIs HQ?

No riot, no violence, just to show PGI that there are PEOPLE behind the player names, people that feel fooled. We would just stand there and watch them.

I would fly all the way from germany to vancouer for that.

[Kaemon]

a few options here (which may or may not be feasible, depending on the depth of pocket and ability of legal team):

1, Ask Microsoft to release the IP for another game (make it strickly solaris or another niche of MW at least for the initial stages).
2. kickstarter to purchase the IP rights directly from IGP (the timing of this will be tricky, too early and you're drop 15 mil, too late and it'll be worthless).
3. talk to one of the other teams working on mech games (stompy robots) and try to get people to defect to their game (not really much of an option, or at least not much to do with this one).

I'd say get the Goons, Kong and everyone else that has any poke left in this dead horse and fly the kickstarter (after doing some serious lawyer paid legwork).

At the very least, you get some very serious attention (and if you fail in acquiring the IP, give the money back, then people have no fear of a scam/cash grab).

It shoots up a flare to the IGP/PGI, to microsoft (who probably could care less, but maybe...) and anyone else using this type of business model that the fleecing era of online games is over, you produce or you die.

Just some thoughts.

[hoverstorm]

How about an alternate BT.

Something like how ProEvolutionSoccer built their game to avoid EA Fifa legal issues.

[Pezzer]

Eirikr Sim, on 15 December 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

How about an alternate BT.

Something like how ProEvolutionSoccer built their game to avoid EA Fifa legal issues.

I don't know much about the legal systems involved, but I believe the issue of IP is much greater here.

With ProEvolutionSoccer, they are making a non-FIFA soccer game. Okay, that's fine. Soccer is as widespread, non-fictional thing that people play.
MechWarrior on the other hand is a fictional IP that some dudes created, much like how an author creates a novel. If someone tried to copy a non-fictional book on lions, it wouldn't be very tough. Is someone tried to copy the Harry Potter series, they would be sued for stealing Rowling's "idea"/original IP. MechWarrior is Harry Potter and ProEvoSoccer is the book about lions in this case.

That's my assumption on how things like this work. Because how else could like 5 different train simulators featuring the same...everything exist on the market? And, once again, why are there only like 3 completely different robot games out there?

EDIT: Long story short an IP closely mirroring BT would get its pants sued off, since the IP would supposedly profit off of the original BT idea.

Pretty sure a video game based off of a widespread universe that is completely different from BT would be possible, though. *Cough* Chromehounds *Cough*.
Speaking of Chromehounds. That game was amazing. Why not try to buy the rights for it, then make a sequel set like 80 years in the future after humanity starts to colonize other planets? You could make a totally unique story loosely based off of this idea just by adding some decent writers to the mix.

Edited by Pezzer, 16 December 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Alex Warden]

actually i was thinking about arma 3 for a MW mod myself... unfortunately i am not very familiar with stuff like this, other than some script copypasting and setting assets in the arma 3 editor

but that engine is absolutely great for modding, bohemia aims for the modding community as no other company around

Edited by Alex Warden, 16 December 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[McTough]

My input: you guys are big babies who seem to think that you have the right to someone else's property.

PGI runs a business, and the devs are people with lives.

[Aim64C]

McTough, on 16 December 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

My input: you guys are big babies who seem to think that you have the right to someone else's property.

PGI runs a business, and the devs are people with lives.

I understand where you are coming from - but you are deceived if you think PGI is running a legitimate business.

We know for a fact that the Founders Package rolled in over $5M dollars. The acquisition of the MechWarrior IP was of unknown cost - but it was absorbed by the purchasing parties on investor capital. Even if we take into account all of the expenses incurred up through 2012 before Smith&Tinker went under - the Founders Package easily put them back within an arm's reach of having recovered their costs.

Phoenix out-sold their expectations and we had a considerably higher user participation. I would hazard to guess that they likely doubled the revenue from the Founder's package - but will error on the side of 7M. Figure that they've probably made a few million on microtransactions (the average cost of a hero mech is something like $15 - and look at how many of those are running around).

There is absolutely zero excuse for the lack of progress on this game. There is zero excuse for Community Warfare to still be "on the drawing board" (if improvised-brainstorming during interviews is passable as 'on the drawing board'). There is absolutely no indication that the developer actually intends to use any of the funds given "to kick-start the development of the next MechWarrior."

If they want to have a robo-zynga game - that's their prerogative, but they are soiling the name of a good franchise with a deep lore and incredible potential to entertain twenty times the number of people it currently reaches.

PGI does not run a business. PGI runs a scam. People who knowingly, willingly devise and/or participate in scams shall receive no quarter.

It is 'businesses' like PGI that give the concept of free enterprise a bad name.

None of the arguments in their defense hold water. While I may be a bit harsh in my analysis of their situation - the fact remains that they have had a year to address substantial and minor issues with their game - and the overwhelming majority of those (that do not involve tweaking some art file somewhere) have not been addressed despite a never-ending marketing campaign.

The issues faced are not due to "money problems" - even if you accept that, on paper, PGI is somehow in the hole for the IP acquisition of MechWarrior - they have been given substantial injections of capital that would allow them to hire the staff and/or services (re-investing in their business) to begin addressing these issues. There weren't investors beating down their door and demanding money the last six months. Their lack of progress is entirely self-induced and betrays a failure to invest in this game beyond marketing gimmicks.

If PGI were running a restaurant - you'd go in to order food and the waitress would keep asking you to buy various franchise-labeled mugs, glasses, plates, tablecloths... lightbulbs - promising that your dinner would be "right out."

Six hours later, the waitress has disappeared, you have a table full of **** that tries to advertise the restaurant, there's still no damned food, and you're wondering when the manager is going to shut the lights off on you.

[McTough]

Aim64C, on 16 December 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

I understand where you are coming from - but you are deceived if you think PGI is running a legitimate business.

You're totally free to design and build your own game. Or is that too hard for you and you'd like others to do it for you and give it to you because you're entitled?

Oh and the thing is, you've made up a lot of things. I happen to feel like I've had my meal.

Edited by McTough, 16 December 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[Kaemon]

Ignore the troll.

The original IP lease length was only until 2015 (they extended it, that's disheartening news to say the least). At their size and with a new game engine (which they had zero xp with), and lack of any credible experience with publishing a full F2P game, this was obviously a cash grab from the very beginning.

No way that's enough time to put in the features they wanted, in the early days of CB we were warning the timeline was absurdly aggressive, especially for a small, no experience shop.

The course of action is to petition Microsoft to cancel the extension, and then work on getting the IP into more capable hands.

As sad as I am to say this, because I'm sure there are good people working at PGI/IGP (who should update their resume and leave immediately), this was a failed experiment, and it will end very badly.

[McTough]

Kaemon, on 16 December 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Ignore the troll.

The original IP lease length was only until 2015 (they extended it, that's disheartening news to say the least). At their size and with a new game engine (which they had zero xp with), and lack of any credible experience with publishing a full F2P game, this was obviously a cash grab from the very beginning.

No way that's enough time to put in the features they wanted, in the early days of CB we were warning the timeline was absurdly aggressive, especially for a small, no experience shop.

The course of action is to petition Microsoft to cancel the extension, and then work on getting the IP into more capable hands.

As sad as I am to say this, because I'm sure there are good people working at PGI/IGP (who should update their resume and leave immediately), this was a failed experiment, and it will end very badly.

Ah, I see this thread was meant to be a circlejerk.

[Aim64C]

I've put together a... horrible... slide flow-chart-mabob that kind of breaks the ice on what the community needs to start thinking about regarding this project (or any other project, really).

Keep in mind that this is not meant to be complete or all-encompassing.



Admittedly, that's as much me ******* around in powerpoint (because I haven't touched it in a long time) as it is anything else. I've always been a white-board and marker kind of person, and my time in the Military has made me detest the abuses of PowerPoint (which I have probably just committed).

So - a little explanation:

The core of all successful games hinges around several cornerstones that work together to create the experience. Gameplay, Story, Art, and Community are the ones we most often think about - but even a freeware project needs to consider the Business at hand.

Business is the big "WTF" on the agenda. While any fool should realize that there is money that can be made off of a well-built game in the MechWarrior/Battletech universe - it is unusual for a community (or 'grass roots' organization) to gain direct ownership of the IP they have embraced. It is usually smaller groups of developers or start-up developers who take ownership with the hopes of satisfying the gaming community and monetizing their endeavors in some way, shape, or form.

A community has the relatively unique opportunity to develop and release an 'official' game free of licensing restrictions as freeware.

While that sounds all well and good - I'm not so sure that would actually be the best thing that could be done for the game. While the generosity of people and the power of charitable acts should not be underestimated - there are inherent dangers in the philosophy of "from each according to his ability to each according to his need." Notably regarding product quality.

In either case - if the community wishes to own the IP - or back a group vying for the IP - it is a key question that must be answered.

On a similar note - we move into where production of the game is going to come from. If it is community-sourced - IE - those within the community who have talents related to the development of the game are allowed to put those talents to use; do we do so with the intention of paying individuals for their contributions (either upon delivery or at a later date pending game revenues)? Or will we only allow people to donate their efforts? Or... should the community simply 'kick-start' a different group to find its own full-time artists and drop the idea of community-sourcing beyond that of funds?

Moving along - is our art-work going to be a re-hash of old MechWarrior paradigms, or what new ground is there to explore? What is kept around simply out of convention of old and what is there as a functional or iconic necessity? I recall a few people were somewhat disappointed that the Clan mechs of this release did not have more distinction from the Inner Sphere mechs. If you think about it - it is quite logical... the clans have been isolated for two centuries and have done nothing but hone their machines for combat. It is logical, given their culture, that they would gravitate toward very 'modern, lean' designs that are artfully crafted out of what could only be described as a religion of eugenics.

What can be done to better capture -life- amidst the Inner Sphere? Not just during game-play, but from the moment you hit the launch button on your computer to the moment you see your desktop again - what levels of immersion can be added or re-discovered?

Which brings us more to the lore.... what time-frame are we doing this in? I think it would be particularly interesting to capture the -depression- of living in the shadow of the Star League... to know your great grandparents lived like gods over your current existence - and not even be able to reproduce some of the most basic of their technology. Then, the uplifting sensation of the Helm Memory Core - the explosion of knowledge and enlightenment that came up through the 3050 time-frame...

While that might be somewhat difficult to do without a single-player campaign - it is something to think about - it is something that has been difficult for all of the MechWarrior games to capture - to really give you the -human- aspect of the Battletech universe.

Or - perhaps leading into gameplay - we want to make our own MechWarrior revolve around a single-player campaign, leaving the multi-player to its own devices. While this would be harder to implement in a "free to play" model - there are some interesting ideas and strategies out there that can be explored.

How can we make the gameplay capture the lore of the battletech universe - to allow someone to almost hear the narration of their game as if it were in one of the novels - that harrowing bit of cunning that allows you to narrowly avoid sucking the vacuum while on a lunar raid. Yet, it still all has to be somewhat open to player style.

This leads into the balancing process for weapons - and I clearly outlined this procedure for a reason:

IMPLEMENTATION:

This is how each and every weapon in the game -works-. This is everything from how the player actually interacts with the controls to fire the weapon to how the weapon applies its damage (at the coding level). Your weapons -must- work the way you want them to before you can do anything else to them.

If the PPC is just an "energy autocannon" - and we think something else needs to be done - discussion of all other weapon properties are useless as there is no game mechanic on which to base them.

Example: In many previous MechWarrior games - the Laser was an instant "apply all damage" - it was an autocannon with more heat and no flight time.

PGI actually did something right (or, quite possibly, that was Smith&Tinker... who knows at this point) - they re-thought how the laser should work with regards to the other weapons in the game, giving it a damage-over-time effect. This completely changed how lasers are effectively used in combat.

I would argue that the solution doesn't go far enough. Lasers should be purely damage-over-time weapons (like the flamer). Pulse lasers should be something like an AC2 that generate considerably more heat but compress the time over which damage is applied to very short durations.

A charge-and-release mechanic for the PPC with virtually no 'recycle' to the weapon would also be interesting to explore. Which leads us to:

HEAT:

Heat is, for the most part, how you control the flow of combat in MechWarrior. Once you have established -how- your weapons work, you then need to adjust the heat system and the heat of weapons so that the natural pace of battle is closer to where it should be (as determined by lore and/or player feedback).

Along with this, some weapons will have to receive "hard" controls on their DPS - such as reload times for missiles, the cycling of an autocannon, and some energy weapons will require even a momentary recharge/reset period of time. Most ballistics have the advantage of being unchained from classical heat restrictions - but run into endurance, recoil/accuracy, and jamming problems. Their 'flow' of battle is not necessarily managed between shots - but between engagements.

Missiles are a little odd in the mix - but their practical firing rates are largely dictated by the time and ability invested in obtaining a lock on the target, as well as the travel time of the missiles compounded with ammunition considerations - though, again, heat plays a role (particularly in addressing direct fire from energy weapons when combined with missiles - such as the Timberwolf...)

RANGE

Once you have the pace of battle going in the right direction - you then adjust for ranges. I would caution that the 'range' in TT is not necessarily an indication that the weapon 'only' goes that far - but that the weapon becomes increasingly more difficult to use at increasing range increments.

Thus - a small laser and a large laser could, plausibly, have similar ranges - the difference being in how much heat they build up (and damage applied - but that's later).

I would argue that a lot of weapons in the game should have their ranges extended, to a degree - and many weapons would be merely very difficult to use at range if not inaccurate (things such as ballistic drop, wind, etc).

Regardless - you are now able to influence the ranges players are engaging at.

DAMAGE:

Damage is the absolute last stat to tinker with. Pacing, ranging, and implementation are all vastly more important concepts to the utility of a weapon. Adjusting for damage is where you fine-tune just how effective a weapon is. If, at this point, you are still unable to balance the weapon - you must return to the first step (implementation) and verify at each step that the weapon's problems cannot be resolved, there.

...............

So - You've gone through all of that, and you still have a few weapons and mechs that just seem to pwn or suck. Now what?

This is where no balancing ever occurs within a vacuum. You're never going to balance a locust against a Jenner - the Jenner has an overwhelming advantage, there. But the locust is damned cheap and can **** with LRM carriers, air bases, artillery positions, etc.

Sometimes, what is missing is not some mystical combination of heat, tonnage, damage, and range - but the role the weapon (or chassis) was intended to play.

This is why I envision a MechWarrior that is larger than Living Legends was - that takes the idea that you are a warrior in a war rather than a gladiator in an arena of robo-jocks. There is so much more to the Battletech universe.

Which moves us back around to the business end of things. Players need to be rewarded for their contributions - big and small. There have to be systems in place for rewarding teamwork (though not necessarily in the sense that you need some kind of super-sleuth AI to figure out if people are working together or not... let's say, following a large battle near your base, an automated salvage team is launched... someone has to escort it, and a successful RTB by that salvage convoy nets everyone on the team (or at least who participated) a bonus - and maybe players who 'lost' a 'mech during that battle can now pay a few C-bills to get it back up and running earlier than waiting for the next drop-ship).

Along with this comes how much time the average player can devote to the game? If the battlefield is -too- large and everything separated to much - people could wander around in the game for an hour before actually seeing combat - and that's no good for the people who have half an hour to an hour to kill.

On the other hand - people want more than isolated battles in the middle of box canyons for no reason other than catapults have ears.

While no game can make everyone happy - if there is a way to include another group of player without harming the experiences of a different group of player - it would be a wise move.

There are also community warfare aspects, here - there does have to be a centralized and organized way for people to make friends and groups - as well as to set up games and matches. While I know some people worry about "premades" only fighting each other all day and dividing the community - that's kind of what has been done here, already, simply because of the radical difference in cohesion between random Pugs and pre-made teams who go into the battle with a plan. Plus - that's kind of what community warfare is - getting to know the names and faces of your victims.

There is also the question of servers (a concept I don't think I mentioned on the slide).

I tend to support the idea of openly hosted servers that check-in with a centralized server (assuming a monetized business model). Borrowing the crypto-currency concept from bitcoin - it would be possible to reward those who host dedicated servers with a 'hard' currency (as if they had bought MC or something). Those server operators could even script in a rewards system for players that allows the players of the server a portion of that earned amount. Being a crypto-currency - no one would be able to "make" more coins spare for the successful completion of a game (with the reward being based upon the server capacity, the number of people active, etc).

By opening the game up to server-side scripting - the game could grow largely on its own with new game modes being added on by the community and those who best serve the needs/demands of the players get the most hard currency to work with (though I suppose that assumes they will actually be spending that currency on something... potential flaw in the reasoning, there).

That allows the development group/team to largely focus on expanding engine capabilities (or server script capabilities) and content - while the server situation largely takes care of itself.

It's just a rough concept idea - there are issues to be resolved with it and there are sure to be some oversights on my part - I just like coming up with completely off-the-wall ideas (I haven't actually looked to see if anyone else has come up with a similar business model for handling their servers - though I hardly suspect I'm the first to ponder the possibility).

With that - I've rambled long enough.

Hey - it may be a cheesy power-point slide ... but ... I accomplished it without a founders package.

[Aim64C]

McTough, on 16 December 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

You're totally free to design and build your own game. Or is that too hard for you and you'd like others to do it for you and give it to you because you're entitled?

Oh and the thing is, you've made up a lot of things. I happen to feel like I've had my meal.

You seem to be quite confused, there, buddy.

I don't want MechWarrior Online. The first thing I'd do with it is throw it out the window. The source code for it is junk - and it would be better to start all over.

Now - what would be worth-while is the artwork that has already been done - and i would be more than happy to pay a fair market price for a considerable portion of that artwork (they can keep their $250,000 maps, though) so that it may be put to use in a decent game rather than squandered away on this dying title.

If a deal cannot be made - it would be unfortunate - but nothing that cannot be recovered from. It would just reduce the amount of time necessary to be able to release an alpha build with the stars of the Battletech universe in it.

As for the lore of Battletech - that goes back decades. No single person or single corporate entity is responsible for the work of Battletech. It's similar in nature to Dungeons and Dragons - no single company can claim to have created all of it (or even most of it). The author of the standard accepted rule-books has changed over the years, as have the people who sell all kinds of art, figures, etc (and the nature of that artwork has changed).

Most of what has been done regarding MechWarrior has been a homage to the lore of Battletech - which has been written by hundreds of different authors and commissioned by several different companies over the decades.

It's not quite like Star Wars - where you can clearly identify Lucas as being -the- guy and his company being -the- entity behind it.

[McTough]

Aim64C, on 16 December 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

I've put together a... horrible... slide flow-chart-mabob that kind of breaks the ice on what the community needs to start thinking about regarding this project (or any other project, really).

So what you're saying is that you're using PGI's property (their servers and their forums service) to plan out how to, as you stated specifically, use their IP in a project?

You are truly clueless. Your project will never see the light of day and your methods highlight that you have no creative ability of your own and are just plain spiteful because you didn't get to see your precious (uh actually, not yours, but Topps) tabletop come to life.

[Aim64C]

McTough, on 16 December 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

So what you're saying is that you're using PGI's property (their servers and their forums service) to plan out how to, as you stated specifically, use their IP in a project?

You are truly clueless. Your project will never see the light of day and your methods highlight that you have no creative ability of your own and are just plain spiteful because you didn't get to see your precious (uh actually, not yours, but Topps) tabletop come to life.

I am clueless?

'My' project?

These forums are only temporary.

It is, also, not their IP. They licensed it from Microsoft - and Microsoft purchased it from FASA when they absorbed FASA 'back in the day.' I would have to look even deeper to see where FASA got their rights from - as MechWarrior is based off of Battletech - which itself has ties in with Robotech (which later became Macross).

So whose creativity is it, anyway?

As far as my own personal creativity? I'm an engineer. I make a living solving other people's problems they were so masterful to create. However, when I talk about my ideas of government (and turning the military into a contracted defense service that funds itself), when I propose some business models, and when I write stories illustrating the challenges coming with the advances in technology (such as how 'operating systems' will generate 'imprints' of our behavior, interests, knowledge, etc as neural interfaces come online) - people tend to say I can be fairly creative.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm procrastinating from other duties.

[Shade4x]

It's a fun idea to think of creating a game and getting the rights to essentially make our own mech warrior game. This however is realisticly not going to happen until PGI turns off the servers, or the contract through microsoft is completed. While i do not believe russ at his word that they sucessfully renewed the lisence, given the forbes article on how bad MWO has become, i do believe that your looking at an uphill battle fighting entrenched companies with million dollar IP's. Having several lawyers in my family, specificly an IP lawyer, i can tell you that the only people that will win will be the lawyers. This is why mech warrior games stopped after MW4. That being said...

I have a viable solution to this. In fact i am sure viable solutions are all around. The question is "can you field 40+ guy's to create a real game in a year or two". That's the real task. Funding is step 1, and always seems like the hard thing to do, but managing and keeping a large team together, on target, and doing what they need to get done is another. At this point however, i really don't see how you could fail harder then PGI.

I have a bit of expierence in this. To be honest, your best bet is to find an engine that is user friendly and a way for people that have little to no expierence programing or modeling to contribute in some way. This however will never work if the goal is to beat PGI, it will only work if the goal is to produce a very good product your proud of, because you simply can not have a long term projects fate tied to any external variable like feelings. The moment a new game takes over or the new turn based mech strategy game comes out, your game dies. Heck, if PGI releases a decent patch, your game dies.

The other portion is to look at chrome hounds and Hawken. Chromehounds had the servers shut down on them because it was no longer profitable, which did upset me greatly, where hawken is essentially modern warfare in robot skins. The Mech Warrior IP is not something that will last indefently. Most of us who play are 30+. We enjoy the nastalga of our child hood. Ironicly that is also the perfect age to bleed people with disposable incomes dry with $250 "mech packs". The only thing PGI says that makes sense, is that the IP need to be relatable to a new market.

If people are interested in this, i would suggest you grab contact info and skill sets, and see what you have at the end of the day. It may not even be viable. However their is always the chance that you end up with enough of what you need to make it work. I'll PM you contact info, so this doesn't have to stay on this forum. Feel free to email any time.

[Vieric]

I like the idea of this, however I would like to advise you find a different place to talk about this as swiftly as you can, As I am genuinely surprised this has not been locked yet. I am hoping that does not happen, but It would not surprise me.

[FreeZe]

You'd have my support in whatever way I could help whether that be money, time, effort, or all three combined. Mechs were my first true love to PC gaming, and I hate seeing something like the Mechwarrior IP having its name dragged through the mud by PGI/IGP.

Though I think wrestling away any rights to use the Mechwarrior IP from PGI/IGP would be nothing short of miracle within the next couple of years, unless of course PGI sinks faster than expected. Quite frankly I'd like to see a massive community funded effort to buy a large portion of IGP. If we're "stakeholders" then Russ will actually have to at least pretend to listen to us.

[Ryvucz]

Cool?

First, you have to talk with Microsoft about the rights.

Second, Good luck with that.

[Mycrus]

If this leads to a kickstarter...

$500 from me, the price of a golden mech

[ShadowedR]

Bump / +1 / Like / Favorite

I'm up for it.
Kick start away