1978 replies to this topic

[Allen Ward]

Lygris Targerian, on 22 December 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'm sorry for being off-topic, but I just can't understand how some members of this community use every feedback-thread to rant about everything the developers did, do or plan to do.

I must admit I couldn't bring myself to read more than the first few pages of this thread because it's so tiresome to read and its basically all the same .
Guys, you disrespect the developers' work, call them liars or worse and presume they will F it up anyway. How can you expect them to take you seriously or value your oppinion?
You say they propably can't get your trust back, even if they do everything you want them to. Then why should they even try?
It's not constructive criticism to tell them again and again that they can't, in your oppion, do anything right.
Don't you realize that you won't achieve anything this way except beeing ignored?

The sad thing is, that the posts containing constructive critisism/ideas/oppinions tend to go under in the sea of pointless rambling.

I wonder if someone from communty managment really does read all the way to this point, on page sixty- something, but i couldn't blame them if not.


That beeing said, I would like to add my thoughts to the clan tech.

I think weapons and equip should have the same weight and crit slots as in BT, so we can have the clan mechs the way the are in BT.
I think balancing can be done by rasing recycle time for the clan weapons and dialing down their damage and range advantage over IS counterparts. DPS could be more or less the same as the IS equivalents.

I also liked the idea for ultra ACs I read in this topic. Make them fire short bursts, with each shell doing a fraction of the nominal damage, over half the recycle time. This way it would be harder to concentrate the damage in one zone.

LRMs without min range seem a big problem.

Streak SRMs could make the life for light mechs hell, maybe larger launchers should get longer lock-on times. Also maybe the range at wich you can lock-on streak SRMs should be limited to the weapon range or double weapon range or something like that.

I think the idea to customize the hardpoints of omni mechs is a cool idea, but the armor value should be variable, because some omnis would certainly be to lightly armored.
The opption to switch engines could be more limited and Structure, armor type and HS technology could be fixed.

Contrary to BT, Omnis with XL engine should be destroyed when losing a side torso, taking up less space than IS versions is enough in my oppion.

I don't know how long and much you have been around to follow the evolution of this game, things the devs promised and if you are aware that they are the ones that just don't deliver over and over again. I agree that it doesn't help to call anybody liars or similar and some ranting is way to aggressive. But it is a fact, that essential parts of the metagame are being delayed for a long time now without PGI telling the community why. If they had the balls they would simply admit that they have taken their mouths too full and misjudged the issues, problems and pains of developing the game they planned in such a short time. I am sure the community would allow them another year for proper development if they just stood up and admitted they can't deliver what they promised in time. But PG doesn't communicate like that. Instead they continue to promise stuff boldly and in a way that get's pretty close to misleading people (Clan Invasions ise here!), that the now hurt community is not going to swallow without question. Quite many people who FUNDED the game, are a bit more angry now, as they can clearly say that the game is constantly evolving away from what was promised to them when they spent their money. Sure, PGI is not obliged to fulfill anything, but they should think about their communication politics a bit. It's one think to mess something up, it can happen to anybody, but it's another thing to deny that against better knowledge and stubbornly continue without any self-reflection. You see how many bad reactions their quite ignorant latest news created. They don't seem to whish to signal: yes, we heard you.

[phaloxian]

Actually, they ARE obligated to fulfill something. They literally typed out "we promise" in several messages/updates[or something that gave the illusion of being a promise, AKA a friggin' lie]... I'm surprised no one has tried to sue them for false advertisement. They said they would do something, they didn't.

In other news, I'm playing a different game.

[roflplanes]

Seriously, what's wrong with leaving all Clan tech EXACTLY as "OP" as it's supposed to be and simply implementing the double tonnage arrangement ("forced" honorable combat) that evened the battlefield in canon?

If a 75-ton Timber Wolf came face to face with a 150-ton enemy force (three skillfully piloted mdiums, an Atlas and a medium, two heavies and a light, etc), the fight would be even at BEST. More likely, the newbie in the Timber Wolf would get (insert adult reference here)-ed in the face by a bunch of veterans driving (comparably) garbage equipment.

Now multiply this out to a 12-man team of (worst case scenario) Atli for a total of 1200 tons on the IS team. Now imagine the Clan team decides to take the same all-assault route and drive a bunch of Dire Wolves. How many would they get? Go on, do the math, I'll wait......... 6. 6 SUPER OVERPOWERED OMGBBQ Clanners vs TWICE the number of IS opponents.

Have you ever seen a flock (lance) of Ravens descend upon a lonely Atlas like the wrath of God almighty and gang-(adult reference number two for your reading pleasure) him to death? It's an awesome feeling/sight/thing because it's SEEMINGLY IMPOSSIBLE when you look at it on paper alone. That's where the satisfaction of using IS tech comes from. THAT's why people will want to play IS 'mechs.

Even with mixed-tech teams, if you implement tonnage restrictions instead of straight bodies per team, everything gets REALLY simple and everyone (mostly) is happy with you again.

I just really don't understand why this is so hard to see from a business/technical/customer feedback perspective....

Edited by roflplanes, 23 December 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Allen Ward]

ssm, on 23 December 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Of course, some of us aren't, some of us don't. Thing is - are "us" enough?

You can try to speculate how many'll jump in "easiest win possible" bandwagon - Try to compare number of people who optimise their bulids to people who try run them closer to stock. People who follow the meta to people who don't.

Clans would offer them not only an advantage (as build optimisation or following the meta does), but enirely different playstyle, one that fits them better than team-dependent IS.

Whether we like it or not, role-players (people who really identify with their faction) are a minority, and close to half of them (I'm guessing here) consider themselves clanners regardless.

I must admit, I don't go for the winning build, weapon, faction whatever at first chance....but....what will oyu do if everybody else does? Hell, I even bought a 2xAC20 Jagermech now, after getting pissed off for several dozen games by all those kiddies instakilling with that ****** mech. After a while you get forced out of the game or into the playstyle that the community adapts. And the game allows for pretty rotten playstyles. I still vote for: kick out the entire hardpoint system. Give us stock mechs, dozens of them, hundreds of them, and everything will be fine. You think stock mechs are boring? No flexibilty? The mind boggling number of stock mechs available in BT is much much greater than any number of builds MWO will ever see. How much variety do you have in MWO now? Out of 12 Mechs I can tell you 6 builds fielded before the game starts. All those Spiders, Jagermechs, Stalkers, and so on builds that everybody runs. So what good is the hardpoint system, if it takes about one evening after release of a chassis to find the "best builds"? You out there who belong to the old kind of honest and stout warriors that would never fall for such "cheese" builds...have fun being taken apart by the red side. I know it's not 100% like that, but the trend is like that. And who is to blame? It's natural to go for the optimized build. And the goal is to win after all, not to play stylish or according to canon. I run mechs that are built after their BT stock originals. They are hopelessly underpowered and not fun to play. Don't rely on the players to keep any kind of balance...

[Allen Ward]

phaloxian, on 23 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Actually, they ARE obligated to fulfill something. They literally typed out "we promise" in several messages/updates[or something that gave the illusion of being a promise, AKA a friggin' lie]... I'm surprised no one has tried to sue them for false advertisement. They said they would do something, they didn't.

In other news, I'm playing a different game.

I'm with you from my personal feeling of justice, but I don't see any juridical obligation for them to deliver just because someone made a monetary contribution.I'm not entirely sure, but I guess that kickstarter and founder programs are not pre-orders, it's more like the community acting as creditor in the hopes of funding something they will like in the end....I may be wrong here.

[roflplanes]

And on a side note, you guys should SERIOUSLY invest in a better PR dept. As a dev myself, I REALLY understand that sometimes things just don't work out (at all) how you plan them to and you need to start a few (lot of) steps back and try again... but there's really no reason to keep BS-ing the people who are paying to keep your lights on and your devs fed.

When something gets scrapped or changed or delayed, just say so. And then compensate your paying customers for their patience, just like any other business. Not by offering to upgrade their room IF they pay you another $500 for the presidential suite, but just as a token gesture of "we dropped the ball on this one, and we're going to make it up to you so you come stay with us again."

I really do love that you guys are doing this at all, but I feel like so much of it could be done so much better if you'd listen to your fans more and your pocketbooks less. The MW franchise didn't become what it is today because it catered to the lowest common denominator (no offense, I promise) of the newbie who wasn't really into it but just decided to try it. It became what it is by catering to that core of dedicated fans who were THERE FROM THE BEGINNING and loved it for all it's difficulties and quirks.

Changing core mechanics to bring in new business alienates the business you've already attracted with the product you promised would proudly bear the MECHWARRIOR name. Just a piece of friendly advice, don't forget the people who got you where you are just because you want to try and garner MORE interest (read: money) from new people.

If you build a game the true fans love, new people will come to it BECAUSE of the dedicated fan base doing more work for you than any marketing team ever could. If you build a big, stompy COD remake, someday no one will remember who you ever were.

Edited by roflplanes, 23 December 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[ssm]

Allen Ward, on 23 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

I must admit, I don't go for the winning build, weapon, faction whatever at first chance....but....what will oyu do if everybody else does? Hell, I even bought a 2xAC20 Jagermech now, after getting pissed off for several dozen games by all those kiddies instakilling with that ****** mech. After a while you get forced out of the game or into the playstyle that the community adapts. And the game allows for pretty rotten playstyles. I still vote for: kick out the entire hardpoint system. Give us stock mechs, dozens of them, hundreds of them, and everything will be fine. You think stock mechs are boring? No flexibilty? The mind boggling number of stock mechs available in BT is much much greater than any number of builds MWO will ever see. How much variety do you have in MWO now? Out of 12 Mechs I can tell you 6 builds fielded before the game starts. All those Spiders, Jagermechs, Stalkers, and so on builds that everybody runs. So what good is the hardpoint system, if it takes about one evening after release of a chassis to find the "best builds"? You out there who belong to the old kind of honest and stout warriors that would never fall for such "cheese" builds...have fun being taken apart by the red side. I know it's not 100% like that, but the trend is like that. And who is to blame? It's natural to go for the optimized build. And the goal is to win after all, not to play stylish or according to canon. I run mechs that are built after their BT stock originals. They are hopelessly underpowered and not fun to play. Don't rely on the players to keep any kind of balance...

Yes, that's the point. I, as a rule, stay out of cheese builds (except my AC20/2xPPC/3xSSRMS 'Lander 733C, but it wasn't considered that in Gauss?PPC meta, and I still like my Beast), but the most important thing that PGI must consider about implementing ClanTech is: How will playerbase, as a whole, react to it?

Because if they'll be implemented inproperly (either too OP, as in TT or too bad - so nobody would be interested in playing them) it'll effect how CW will turn out - and judging on recent outrage about (primarly) lack of progress with CW, majority of playerbase consider it most important feature yet to be implemented.

I'm certain of one thing - implementing OP TT Clans and trying to balance them by numbers is out of the question.

[Illusion Tokomi]

Perhaps this:

"What they should do is play with a weight balanced system and force people to play either on the clan side or the inner sphere side for the first year or so. So you won't see a clan mech on the same side as inner sphere mechs. This will allow them to do a constant community warfare system that won't require a special type of game play."

But what I expect they will do is continue to treat it like world of tanks on legs and just throw it all into the same Que. They will then nerf clan tech into the ground because it will be easier to balance it that way. Then, in the end, clan 'Mechs will be nothing more than a different skinned inner sphere 'Mech for normal game play.

Edited by Illusion Tokomi, 23 December 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Russhuster]

this game is l i v i n g on and from the ambiente the mech warrior story line, no matter if from books tabletop or previous games has been built up. We, most of the players know of certain weaknesses and benefits lostech and clan tech included
that makes the ambiente were playing in. call it the feeling of MW

Coping with the challenges in game makes the game interesting, is the spice that keeps us playing
when everything is nerfed and equalized, you have no MW anymore just similarity and same options on just different looking boxes that makes the game faceless more exchangable with others, keep your characteristics, dont nerf em away en contraire!

i for myself definite genereal equalisation as boredom. What challenge has it left then there ?

when the idetity is nerfed out of the Ambiente what does MW then distinguish from other shooters ?

what brings up the motivation for players to continue playing?

so keeping clan clan and omnimechs very flexibkle with omni places, exchangable armor and interior is a part of both player community care and product placement.

there are a lot of good ideas in this game source, and what ive heared the concept and intentions are very much worth striving for. In addition the game scenarios ive seen so far, are, and new maps are promising, all in all a good work, to be completet with public warfare factions and maybe even conquerable planets consisting of a certain number of maps, maybe as lookout for the future building up the inner sphere map that way,

keep up the good work and issues this game holds, bring more and diferent maps onlne, and dont waste workforce on ballancing a good thing and clan concept, not needing ballance, because clan is part of the game and mind of many players superior tech,.. it is a part of imballane yes, buit that is meant to be that way and it is a feature of the game it wouldnt like to miss.
yes it has more damage is more compact and has more range. fine with me, thats the clans

when clans are superior in technique and range, the completet concept with public warfare, factions mercs etc will face it and that will bring great fun in the game, will make it interesting to play over and over again.
there will be no great need of ballance
maybe except a certain numerous or and / dropworth/weigt advantage for the inner sphere
of 10 versus 12 that keeps all options playable but 2 mechs more on one side make a lot of a difference
AND it has a style component that is anchored in the ambiente, Clan 2 stars a 5 mechs IS a company of 3 Lances a 4 mechs

with a grat number of maps maybe a overlook map of the IS what house / Faction ownd what planets atm
and maybe solaris with arena matches where the best players from the IS can show theyr talents against each other
this game could be such a self runner/ sure fire success

what do you think about that?

Edited by Russhuster, 23 December 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Taemien]

Valheru, on 23 December 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Tamien, I understand where you're coming from, and that is a place of specific game balance. But I agree to disagree with you. Why is it so scary to jump in with a bunch of piranhas given that this is a game. Have you ever tried impossible or hardcore mode on any other game? By definition, it's unfair right? This leads me to propose, perhaps separate queues for different player types, allowing for choice. I'm sure different game types would lead to more fun and interesting battles.

In your previous comments, they stem from the fact that all the mechs are already or should be balanced. It would definitely make sense for 1 to 1 match ups. I, however, am coming from the premise that clans have superior technology plain and simple. We are talking bows and arrows vs flintlock revolvers. Not everyone is invincible, and not everyone has 100% success with those technologies, yet clearly one is superior.

Have you played MWLL? MWLL is essentially what PGI is almost copying with their approach, at least from a weapon standpoint. There Clan weapons have longer ranges, higher damage, and usually put out more heat (ER vs Standard). However the IS versions of the weapons tend to have more DPS and more sustainability.

Clan is better in someways, but not superior all round. Try it. Then come back here, see if it changes your mind.

For me, clan weapons feel like clan weapons. They reach out and punch hard.... but try to brawl (not restricted to short range, just trade blows) with an IS mech, and you will NOT win through attrition. They will simply out DPS you, or you will overheat.

[Grey Knight]

Ok guys,,,i think everyone agrees that no one will read all these 70+pages!
I nearly did, and tht is the only reason why i post something again, otherwise this would have been total waste of time!

If you want something to be done right you have to do it by yourself....ok i only know how to turn my Laptop on and off...so....

We wont change nothing as long as we dont act as ONE community. So we need to "force" (not Buying anything) PGI to change things to the way the majority wants.
Therefore we need to present them ONE solution the majority can live with. So we should do kind of vote about several issues.

If you disagree, you should keep in mind that whining and arguing in a thread wont change that much...so we should get more constructive and kind of "lead" them where we want them to go.

To PGI...i know you obey on certain economic rules/pressure, but if you dont satisfy yor customers...no one will buy anything.

So its up to you at the end....


I dont know how to do votes and forum stuff because im a total noob in these things....so i recommend someone else to do it a proper way!


Live is about making desicons...you cant have everthing at the same time.


My Proposal for a "Final Game Version"

-Shift Clan implementation for half a year/year after introducing Community warfare
-There should be several "Modes"
-No "Solaris Mechs" in Community warfare
-Stay with your faction or clan or create a new mechwarrior for a other faction

Solaris Mode
actually somehow the game as it is right now, everyone can config his mech as he wants as long as he got the cbills...
1vs1, 2vs2 etc and implement clan tech later for a lot more cbills (blackmarket)
Kind of Solaris Champion

Community Warfare
Only IS-Mechs for one season and the Mechs should be more restricted (Stock Mechs close to the TT) but therefore more Mechs to chose from.

Depending on your faction (owning certain facilities) there should be some restrictions which mechs you can chose (or again via Blackmarket for a lot of cbills)

There should be posibilitys to modify the mechs....DHS and Armor change shouldnt be a big deal, but to exchange Engine and Internal Structure you should need a high rank in your faction or your faction need access to certain facilities. (Internal Structure are the Bones and Muscels of an 10m tall Mech....you cannot exchange that easy)

Also Weapon changes should be very restricted...especially ballistics such as AC20. Not every mech is design and constructed to fire an AC 20...its like putting a formula 1 engine in an Fiat punto...
lets say...if the mechs has AC2 or 5 its no problem to put in an ac10 (as long as you have the nescessary weight)
Ac10 to AC 20 only if the original mech config has the AC 10 mounted in the torso....Armstructure would be to fragile to mount and fire AC20 if the mech is not designed for it.

There should be some salvage/repair...but i dont have a exact idea


Clan Invasion
Clans should invade IS when there is a stable community warfare. Implement Clan Tech without nerfing (only ac20 Ultra shouldnt be in this game)
Omni Mechs should be Free configurable according to the Pilots Battlestyle (somehow like the IS "omnis" are at the moment)

With the restricted IS Mechs you need to have Teamtactics, strategies etc to fight the Clans.
On the other hand Clans should have some Honor system and should fight with less mechs than IS 5vs8 or even 5vs12....keep in mind that IS Mechs wouldnt be that strong as they are right now and Clan Mechs would have much more Firepower as the mechs right now.

Clan Tech only for Clans...except Solaris mode later on.


In my opinion, this would satisfy most of the players and the game would be interesting challenging....unique!!!




I loved Battletech Books, TT etc until the girls in school got their Tittys....so even today i love playing with tittys more than a pc game...so i really dont mind if you guys agree or like what im writing...
It is my last atempt...even it is a small chance, to do some constuctive changes!

Doesnt matter what opinion one of you guys have...you wont change anything in this game on your own!


Sorry again for my English + i wrote this in the middle of the night!

[Aim64C]

Taemien, on 22 December 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Little play with tonnage? Have you even seen the stats on clan weapons? Their PPC take 2 criticals. Meaning you can put it in a CT. Their ER Large Laser takes ONE critical, meaning if there's a energy slot there, you can mount it in the head, or two in the CT. Can't change speed, dunno if you've seen the speeds on those mechs, but they don't need more. Their heavies, stock, go the same speed as some mediums being fielded currently. As for armor, ok they become glass cannons... some of which we see here already in the form of AC40 Jagers and crazy catapults. Seeing as there were numerous nerf calls for such mechs, I'm sure the clan versions will do fine if not better, even with 'balanced to IS' weapons.

Most Clan mediums and heavies run with both ES and FF - meaning their critical allocation is roughly similar to current "top of the line" IS mechs. Most also run XL engines, and all except a very select few run double heat sinks (and quite a few of them). You're not going to have nearly as much room as you think you are to play around with these things. Remember, some weapons are considered 'fixed' to the variant. That, basically, means PGI reserves the right to hamper your ideas for an 'uber' design.

Once again - they specifically have avoided releasing assaults with two ballistic slots that can house a pair of AC20s or Gauss Rifles. This is by design. If you think they are going to make an exception, you are sorely mistaken.

"Heat Scaling" was implemented because PGI thought they could develop a horrible heat system and then balance it through their hardpoint system.

Rest assured that absolutely no thought was put into this design idea before it was typed up on the computer and submitted to the forum. They will heavily restrict how useful this proposed system is - and then they will have to come up with some other stupid mechanic to cover for their failings once again.

Now - as far as not being able to change speeds - Clan mediums and lights are particularly in a bind, here. Clan heavies and assaults can get away with mounting XLs because they can survive torso blow-outs and because the 4 extra critical spaces required are easily offset by dropping FF - which is less weight saving than ES. Even so - many of the Clan mechs are very lightly armored and have armor distributions that are not what would be chosen for this game (which sees a huge preference for front-biasing the armor). They are not "glass cannons" like the Jager - but weapons with an even dusting of imitation-armor.

Quote

And your heatsink argument is a bit flawed. Their double heatsinks only take 2 slots, not 3. The ONLY 3050 era Clan mech that mounts SHS is the Behemoth which is a BATTLEMECH which means it can be upgraded to doubles as normal. Sorry all era specific Omnimechs use DHS. Thats your Daishi, Gladiator, Masakari, Man'o'war, Madcat, Thor, Loki, Vulture, Ryoken, Blackhawk, Fenris, Dragonfly, Puma, Uller, Koshi, and Dasher. Some of your slightly later mechs such as the Cauldron Born, Shadowcat, ect have DHS too.

Two criticals adds up fast - particularly when many of these designs run five or more additional heat sinks. The clans get some leniency on ballistic space, but not much.

Take the Primary configuration of the 'Madcat' -

2 Large Lasers - 8 tons, 2 criticals
2 Medium Lasers - 2 tons, 2 criticals
1 Med Pulse Laser - 2 tons, 1 critical
2 LRM 20 - 10 tons, 8 criticals (+ 2 tons, 2 crit ammo)
2 Machine Gun, 0.5 ton, 2 critical (+ 2 tons, 2 crit ammo).

22.5 tons of pod space, basically. The design comes standard with 15 DHS. Currently, the 375 XL engine in MWO precludes the proper implementation of the Madcat: http://mwomercs.com/...-ton-too-heavy/ - So you may have a few inconveniently placed DHS - but the bigger problem is that you're working with as much tonnage as a Blackjack can scrounge up.

Though mileage may vary: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1719513

It all depends upon how extreme the implement is on these limitations. If all I can change are the weapons - then the Madcat becomes an incredibly limited machine.

Let's also keep in mind that, as I interpreted the explanation, 'omni slots' are only 'omni' with regard to the body part they are assigned. Right arm slots can only be swapped with other variants' right arms, and the like.

Basically - you're not going to like it.

Actually - the omnimech version of the BlackJack can scrounge up some 26.5 tons of pod space as a 50 ton mech.

Quote

The only clan mechs that don't are BattleMechs. Which can be upgraded as I said above. I guess you could make an argument that Omni's are UP because they CAN'T mount Single Heatsinks... oh noes! See how far that takes ya.

The fact that you won't be able to remove 5 of the ten unnecessary heatsinks to either free up space or tonnage for a ballistic-centered design will be more debilitating.

But, my efforts in explaining this to you are frivolous endeavors of self-indulgence on my part. I will not shove it in your face, but there will come a time when you will realize that I was telling you exactly how it would go down and was spot on.

[Ney Pryde]

I'm stunned at the ideas to balance clan tech (which i think should be left alone honestly).

More heat on ER lasers, when aside from pulse are the ONLY normal type laser the clans have? I mean I can live with extra duration on the laser but come on, if you up the heat anymore i'd just rip the thing off and slap an ERPPC on instead because guess what? It's 15 PINPOINT damage and 15 heat. If you have to nerf it nerf the range and add duration to the beam and then leave it alone.


And max of 2 missles a volley on streaks? Are you kidding me? You throw big threatening damage numbers around but you neglect to tell anyone that its still only 2.5 a missle and they dont all hit in the same spot. Sure streaks still have some issues on being random, but thats something you guys could FIX in the 6 months leading up to the clans, instead you hard cap the volley amount? If you do this AND add to the recycle rate then I will never run streak 4's or 6's, I'll just slap on a couple srm 6's because guess what, the clans still have those AND ams doesn't shoot those down plus we can get a good 70 to 90% of those missles to hit just by aiming.


This leads us into the LRM issue. What in gods name make you think upping the tonnage is in anyway a good idea? you'd break so many stock configurations it's not even funny. 1 more heat? I can deal with that. Taking the no minimal away under the threat of "Streak 20's? No, just no. First of all you guys claim to know the lore and yet it seems you didn't read the part where these launchers are incappable of indirect fire. You do know that means these missles DON'T arc up like the IS launchers. Hell its hard to even compare the two as the same weapon system beyond "they fire long range missiles". No minimals or no deal, hell nerf the max range if you have to but do not touch the no minimal in anyway.

Firing in a straight line at a target with gentle turning abilities so that they dont turn on a dime like streaks sounds pretty easy to do to me considering you guys already have a massive amount of missle flight path data from the 2 or was it 3 times you guys had to rebuild the flight paths? Further more I feel like theres that over arcing feel of "high damage to you so we must nerf it" once again without mentioning that its SPREAD OUT.


Now lets move onto Omnitech itself, I actually LIKE that you locked Omnimechs down to factory stats only, this makes me happy, very very happy.

This however is the one and only positive in a massive sea of negatives from your post.

When I read that my precious Pod space, you know the part that puts Omni in the word Omnitech, was not there and had been replaced by MORE hard points and that I'd be running a Omnimech chop shop ripping arms off other variants and just slapping them on the base torso like some Frankenstein monster, I face palmed with both hands for about five minutes before I could even bother to read anymore of the planned ideas.

I don't even know what to say to this other then, it's pod space!! If I want to run 10 AMS with like 7 tons of ammo to help the team from "increased missle threats" that you, yourself, claim are around and need to be nerfed (but don't if you do it right) then why can't I? We all know you only put one hardpoint for AMS on a mech, maybe 2 if we're lucky.

And what about Jump Jets? I don't know about a lot of people but the first thing I would do to a Timberwolf is slap some on to make the Pryde configuration because I'm a Jade Falcon. But wait! You only let certain models in the current system mount Jump Jets just like with how many AMS we get. Just follow the KISS method for the love of god and just make it Pod space.


I'm afraid of what you have in mind for the Ultra series of AC's and god knows if you'll ever get multiple ammo types in so the LBX series for the clans can fire slugs, because I don't want to have to use an Ultra series if I want to fire a slug and I shouldn't have to.


I am extremely open to balancing based on being out numbered or a BV system built into matchmaking but not really nerfing the weapons. I don't want to play Innersphere 2.0, I want to play as a Clanner

Also let it be known this is currently the biggest factor on if I will buy a Clan package or not, I really want to BUT I won't shell out that kind of cash for weapons and mechs that are a joke. I'd rather fire up megamek and play that with my friends. Come back in like a month or 2 and update us on what the ideas are please.

Edited by Ney2000, 23 December 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Xenoid]

Here's just my $.02 on the matter...

No nerfing any Clan weapon, keep them as designed in TT. Instead, have matchmaker be set for one team as Clan and one as IS, with IS getting the usual 3 lances and Clans either getting 2 stars (which is still overpowered) or only 6-8 mechs.

Also, no C-Bill reward for piloting Clan mechs, since fighting for money is deemed dishonorable by the Clans. Or at least severely limit the amount of C-Bills earned. This is not to suggest to run Omnis would be a P2W, but rather have players use their IS mechs for the money generation. This would allow a steady mix of IS and Clans to continue, rather than everybody completely mothballing their IS mechs in favor of Omnis, they would still use them for money making.

As for the Omnimechs...I like the idea of having certain things fixed, such as armor, internal structure and engine. But that should be it. As many have stated, these are Omnimechs, and what makes them as such is their ability to swap equipment without hardpoint restriction. This in canon was not just about playstyle or mission specific mech configs, but also gave Omnis a tactical advantage where a technician could replace a damaged component in a matter of minutes to get the mech back into the fight quickly, whereas IS mechs required hours, if not days, of downtime to repair a damaged mech depending on its severity.

Instead of having 3 variants, why not just one Omni, and triple the amount needed to unlock skills, so for example, IS to achieve Kinetic Burst requires 1000 XP, for a Clan Omni it would require 3000 XP, for Quick Ignition an Omni would need 12000 XP and so forth.

[Taemien]

Aim64C, on 23 December 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Most Clan mediums and heavies run with both ES and FF - meaning their critical allocation is roughly similar to current "top of the line" IS mechs. Most also run XL engines, and all except a very select few run double heat sinks (and quite a few of them). You're not going to have nearly as much room as you think you are to play around with these things. Remember, some weapons are considered 'fixed' to the variant. That, basically, means PGI reserves the right to hamper your ideas for an 'uber' design.

There are very few clan mechs with weapons hard mounted. The only one that comes to mind is the flamer on the puma. Most hard mounted weapons are seen on IS Omni's such as the Avatar's 2 medium lasers. This isn't that big of a deal.

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Once again - they specifically have avoided releasing assaults with two ballistic slots that can house a pair of AC20s or Gauss Rifles. This is by design. If you think they are going to make an exception, you are sorely mistaken.

Any official source for that info? I'm seeing a Daishi Prime being implemented that could easily mount 2UAC20s. None of the weapons are hardmounted. Just a DHS in the leg.

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"Heat Scaling" was implemented because PGI thought they could develop a horrible heat system and then balance it through their hardpoint system.

Thats a matter of opinion. Boaters got rocked and are upset about it.

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Rest assured that absolutely no thought was put into this design idea before it was typed up on the computer and submitted to the forum. They will heavily restrict how useful this proposed system is - and then they will have to come up with some other stupid mechanic to cover for their failings once again.

Again, a matter of opinion. Its very close to some suggestions I've made in the past. Just a step further.. never thought about interchangible arms. Makes not having to code/art omni slots.

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Now - as far as not being able to change speeds - Clan mediums and lights are particularly in a bind, here. Clan heavies and assaults can get away with mounting XLs because they can survive torso blow-outs and because the 4 extra critical spaces required are easily offset by dropping FF - which is less weight saving than ES. Even so - many of the Clan mechs are very lightly armored and have armor distributions that are not what would be chosen for this game (which sees a huge preference for front-biasing the armor). They are not "glass cannons" like the Jager - but weapons with an even dusting of imitation-armor.

Some mechs will have to arguably have to take on unique roles. Loki and Vultures will be mostly support mechs while Thors, Madcats, and Masakaris will be a little tankier (they already have high armor values).

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Two criticals adds up fast - particularly when many of these designs run five or more additional heat sinks. The clans get some leniency on ballistic space, but not much.

Take the Primary configuration of the 'Madcat' -

2 Large Lasers - 8 tons, 2 criticals
2 Medium Lasers - 2 tons, 2 criticals
1 Med Pulse Laser - 2 tons, 1 critical
2 LRM 20 - 10 tons, 8 criticals (+ 2 tons, 2 crit ammo)
2 Machine Gun, 0.5 ton, 2 critical (+ 2 tons, 2 crit ammo).

22.5 tons of pod space, basically. The design comes standard with 15 DHS. Currently, the 375 XL engine in MWO precludes the proper implementation of the Madcat: http://mwomercs.com/...-ton-too-heavy/ - So you may have a few inconveniently placed DHS - but the bigger problem is that you're working with as much tonnage as a Blackjack can scrounge up.

Though mileage may vary: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1719513

Clan mechs are going to need the extra heatsinks to power their hotter ER weapons. They will have to use their range advantage (which they will have still). They will not be able to go toe to toe with IS weapons in a brawl. I think that is fine. Brawling isn't a clan fighting style and its interesting to see how they implement it in such a way to reflect that.

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It all depends upon how extreme the implement is on these limitations. If all I can change are the weapons - then the Madcat becomes an incredibly limited machine.

Let's also keep in mind that, as I interpreted the explanation, 'omni slots' are only 'omni' with regard to the body part they are assigned. Right arm slots can only be swapped with other variants' right arms, and the like.

Basically - you're not going to like it.

Actually - the omnimech version of the BlackJack can scrounge up some 26.5 tons of pod space as a 50 ton mech.



The fact that you won't be able to remove 5 of the ten unnecessary heatsinks to either free up space or tonnage for a ballistic-centered design will be more debilitating.

But, my efforts in explaining this to you are frivolous endeavors of self-indulgence on my part. I will not shove it in your face, but there will come a time when you will realize that I was telling you exactly how it would go down and was spot on.

You're going to have to think outside the box while using clan mechs. Thats the whole idea of Omni's. What works with BattleMechs won't work with them. I'm sure we'll see some rather creative designs. Rather than slapping as many SRMs, Lasers, or ACs and call it a day.

As I said, I think I will like how they implement omnis. I just can't wait till the IS gets their own.

[Cerberias]

Only two mechs with JJ's, rest with hardpoints around ankles - not looking like they're going to be OP so far.

[Savvage]

Is there a play test server with seperate gate and mech builds? One where all items are 0 for the purposes of what can i do with these...

If ya'll could cycle a few rationally minded players through them / that. See where it goes, a basic route would be making it, a litteral translation and seeing where it takes the players, im thinking clan tech but no clan mechs. With that, you would more likely be able to see how giggleshoes, clan tech makes stuff already in the game.

I have a spider that at current recognised tech path, i will have 2 more tons to work with when clan tech is added. I feel rather safe in this assumption that no one will want IS machine guns if clan types are indeed half the weight for same damage, that extra ton of a quad machine gun build, means a jumpjet, the clan ER Large Laser 4 tons, means armour.

As for larger mechs, clan ER large lasers will replace IS across the board, they weigh less by a whole ton, for many this means the viable option to have clan heatsinks dotted around, seeing how legs dont usually get ANYTHING in them on laser builds, and the fact clan doubles are 2 slots, the slots available if even 2 IS doubles are in same place and everyone uses doubles allows for effectively 50% more double heatsinks. So legs and say one torso get 3 extra tons of heatsink, thats still one ton spare in quad large laser builds for... armour? ECM / BAP where appliacble? AMS might even get more broadly used on the grounds of "well i just dunno what else to put in there really"

IS awesome ER PPC's 21 tons, IS awesome with clan ERPPC's 18 tons what then, heatsinks? not a lot else an awesome in its "scary zap zap mode" as one player called it, needs, usually well up on armour, engine is usually maxed up anyway due to low engine caps. So an awesome could be effectively called "viable barrage mech"

Clan Ultra AC20's fires a pair of shots over .25 seconds AC40's are leathal, if both shots do 20 damage which i assume they do? thats an AC80 boating jeager build right there, in this combat system, thats gonna be a bit of an issue. weighs less, dont generate heat worth mentioning, ammo and armour? Make jeagers murderous mechs overnight. The twin ultra AC20 hunchback 2-C model being effectively useless, its armour is notoriously paper thin and about the same speeds. Being a clan mech, it'll likely cost what? 8 million? how much is a jeager? yeah.

clan tech is like a knifes edge waver but a little and all shall be lost.

[Sethesch]

How about turning down the customization flexibility of IS Mechs nearly completely? So you can only use standard variants with only a few small field upgrade possibilities. The huge amount of customization possibilities is something which always made me wonder in the first place, since it is totally against canon (As were some of the starting weapons like ER weapons, Ultras, LBX, Streaks etc.) Now everybody would have to rely on more teamwork except on OP custom builds. So back to the roots.

The Champion or Hero Mechs are a good option then for special builds and would be more interesting to buy eventually.

Now you can give Clan Mechs the customization flexibility they need to have. Let them drop in 10 (2 Stars) vs. 12 (three lances) and let have IS a better tonnage ratio.

How about that?

Edited by Sethesch, 24 December 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

I have a better idea, leave the clan tech EXACTLY how it compares between IS and Clans on the TT (No min range LRM, SSRM6, etc). Make omni mechs EXACTLY how they appear. No customization at all. Period. A Timber Wolf A is a Timber Wolf A, exactly like every other Timber Wolf A. The limitations on customization will balance the far superior tech, Clans balanced.
Complete that with 2 stars (10 mechs) vs. 3 lances (12 mechs).

Edited by Wolf87535, 24 December 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[NRP]

Reading through Sarma about the various Clan omnimechs that will be included in the packages leads me to believe all of the Clan mechs will run very hot, perhaps too hot to be viable especially if heat is the primary method for balancing Clan tech.

It also seems like Clan tech provides the perfect opportunity to try a different heat scale paradigm (competely independent of what you use on IS mechs): relatively low heat capacity but relatively high heat dissipation (Clan DHS are smaller but more efficient). The low heat capacity would prevent alpha striking and the high dissipation would maintain DPS by allowing chain firing.

Try a simple solution first. Only add complexity as necessary. That's the hallmark of good engineering.