1978 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

nemesis271989, on 24 December 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

IS mechs HAZ to be upgrade-able.

• In order to receive an upgrade I think it is enough to just kill a clan mech.
  
• The one who killed a clan mech now can go and salvage.
  
• In order to salvage you need:for example stop on killed mech-wreak for let's say 10 seconds then you can extract 1 let's say laser or whatever was operational on clan mech after it has fallen.
  
• You can get ONLY 1 CLAN ITEM PER KILL/MATCH (if successfully salvaged)
  
• When extracting an item you can't leave that spot for 10 seconds
  
• Extraction Item can be 1 heat sink, lasers of any kind, endo steel even an engine.system must pick it randomly from a destroyed clan mech BUT MUST BE 1 Item or an UPGRADE.
  
• After all you may do with it whatever, sell / use on your IS MECHS or if you are part of any organization just donate that item to one of your co-workers at current organization (donation is questionable).

I think this kind of pattern will make IS players want to kill a clan mech. So, IS resistance will be here ))))

And eventually everyone will have all clan equipment/weapons making IS gear pointless.

[Cyrionthewise]

Sounds good!

[cheeki-breeki]

With omnimechs introduction we'll get a helluva swarm of AC boats. Now it is at least a prerogative of JM and CTF.

Edited by demonoholic, 25 December 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[keith]

Veebora, on 24 December 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

I really disagree about giving just a small advantage to Clan Mechs and limiting engine and armor.

Clan stuff must be superior, but give it a limit on drop or maybe increase the value. So the teams will be balanced even tho one team has clan mechs and other not.

As theoretical example, one lance composed of inner mechs will have 3 assault and 1 med while the lance composed of clan mechs will have 2 assault, 1 med and 1 light.

u can't limit clan tech armor. every person who says need to jump into current meta. clan mechs will not be played, or will just be played as er ppc pop tarts. clan mechs will be 1 trick ponys everyone on the forums will complain about how OP the 15 dam er ppc is. unless there is some way to change the amount of armor on clan mechs most clan mechs will be useless in close range. engines will only effect the lights. having a light mech going at 100 means it dead or shelf. does not matter how many weps it can put on. this all assume they go with current IS wep tweak on clan tech not complete nerfing clan weps

[Grevar]

This is madness. I bought founder pack just because they sad it will be most close to original game as possible. And now what i see? Spheroids will be MORE customizable then Clans omni mechs -LOL WAT????!!!! Why i need you hard point's if i will not able to change engine and so? You already implement restriction for over usage alpha configs with over 100500 lasers and etc.

Clan Lrm 20 problem - this occure only, because you FAILED for more then YEAR to FIX hitting issue, Why they ALL hit the target? Why there is no possibility to shoot them at some location like artillery to make them usable in some manner without lock?, why you cannot do simple mechanic (like mortar in BF or artillery in WoT)? how you will implement such weapons like Long tom artillery and ARROW IV without such mechanic????

Clans are NOT balanced by rule what you must restricted to zelbringen, it was lapsed during invasion! Zelbringen is also was not "rule" it was just honorable tactic, clan warriors were not restricted to it (even in one of the first books Way of Clans Aiden during trial just broke this “rule”) And in 4th wave of invasion clans didn't use zelbringen at all against dishonorable spheroids. Some of claners follow zelbringen more, some less.

SO what the point? How clans were balanced in readouts? By higher COST! I You can bring at same “cost” Atlas+Jenner as one Dire Wolf, better mechs – less of them on battle field, so usual clans were just outnumbered. The only one thing that cannot be implemented in FPS like MWO is Pilot skill check for hitting target, coz clans usualy also better pilots with better chances to hit, then spheroids in table top. So will be much better to balance it same way – use some factor to calculate. You can give each mech/techs some multiplier and then calculate tonnage*multiplier for team balance. It will be harder – but much better then do such stupid thing as nerf clan technology to make it “more” balanced with spheroid old tech. You need to implement some sort of Battle Value in game, otherwise you ***** up the game entirely, with your “balance” tweaks.

I bought founder pack to support idea of mech warrior game with close as possible to original idea gameplay. And I almost bought best pack for clan mechs, but I will not spend a cent anymore until I'll see that YOU will follow your own promises. Stop painting new mechs and start to fixing problems that already exist. (like LRMs, from beta were always problems with them mb time to redo it?)

I'm fully support http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2991066

I hope you are able to listen to your best customers – fans of BT and mechwarriors.

Edited by Grevar, 25 December 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[cheeki-breeki]

Counting battle value is the most smart way to balance the game.

[ValdnadHartagga]

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

This is madness.

This. Is. Strana Mechty!

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I bought founder pack just because they sad it will be most close to original game as possible. And now what i see? Spheroids will be MORE customizable then Clans omni mechs -LOL WAT????!!!! Why i need you hard point's if i will not able to change engine and so?

That is as close to the game as possible, at least in terms of lore/roleplaying. The advantage of OmniMechs is that they can be customized quickly in terms of weapons loadout and certain accessories. It's supposed to take a week or so just to outfit a different weapon on a standard BattleMech, much less an engine (which gets into the month range). Taking an Omni offline for a month to swap out an engine doesn't make sense...you want a faster or better armored 'Mech, take a different chassis. Clan warriors also don't own their 'Mechs, everything is property of the Clan so machines can be traded around (or Trialed for) willy-nilly.

Edited by ValdnadHartagga, 25 December 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Grevar]

ValdnadHartagga, on 25 December 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

This. Is. Strana Mechty!




That is as close to the game as possible, at least in terms of lore/roleplaying. The advantage of OmniMechs is that they can be customized quickly in terms of weapons loadout and certain accessories. It's supposed to take a week or so just to outfit a different weapon on a standard BattleMech, much less an engine (which gets into the month range). Taking an Omni offline for a month to swap out an engine doesn't make sense...you want a faster or better armored 'Mech, take a different chassis. Clan warriors also don't own their 'Mechs, everything is property of the Clan so machines can be traded around (or Trialed for) willy-nilly.

Then tell me Why IS* mechs will be fully customizable???? Why right now i can do what ever i want with any mech in my hangar and it "have sense", don't take months and blablablabla???????
IF follow such logic we !!MUST!! fight on stock mechs! Coz in general it was realy rary occasion when mech was owned by some private person, usualy mechs were owned by states with they own units. And more raraly private companies have money for such customization. (it was cheaper to buy one more new mech anyway)
SO STOP using such arguments while we have 100% access to customisation for IS mechs. Also we DON'T have in this game any combats for weeks, then we need to resupply and repair/customize mech in field. So it absolutly pointless to argue about "How hard to do so" it will be done as fast as i click.



We discuss MWO and it future, PGI say - you will have full access to customization, they present MechLab as feature of this game. Almost all of us play on custom configs. And then they want to throw this away for Clans??

[ValdnadHartagga]

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Then tell me Why IS* mechs will be fully customizable???? Why right now i can do what ever i want with any mech in my hangar and it "have sense", don't take months and blablablabla???????

Because no one would play the game if they had to wait weeks to change a single aspect of their 'Mech. We even got rid of repair and rearm because it ate away at peoples' c-bills. Back in Closed, an XL engine could run you at a near loss even if you won the match. Further elaborated below.

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Coz in general it was realy rary occasion when mech was owned by some private person, usualy mechs were owned by states with they own units.

Following the Star League Exodus and until very recently in the timeline (i.e., the first dark age through the end of the Succession Wars), the majority of BattleMechs in House employ are privately-owned and operated, since the technology to maintain them has been lost - any new BattleMechs were completely constructed by ancient automated factories, and repairs were done haphazardly resulting in FrankenMechs and unorthodox/custom loadouts. MechWarriors, who were considered the equivalent of medieval lords, were commissioned into various units with their 'Mechs, and expected to serve when called. It's not until after the Succession Wars that we see a resurgence in state-owned BattleMechs. The whole reason we have the term "Dispossessed" is because of that era when destroyed BattleMechs could not be replaced.

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

And more raraly private companies have money for such customization. (it was cheaper to buy one more new mech anyway) SO STOP using such arguments while we have 100% access to customisation for IS mechs.

Correct. The majority of customized 'Mechs we see in lore are refits of damaged or salvaged 'Mechs (which are cheaper than buying new ones). Ones that are deliberately modified for an edge in combat are pretty rare, Yen-Lo-Wang being a notable example. It was first modified with a new AC20 and claws for use in the Solaris arenas. Then in 3050, it was refitted with Star League tech on Hanse Davion's own dime.

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Also we DON'T have in this game any combats for weeks, then we need to resupply and repair/customize mech in field. So it absolutly pointless to argue about "How hard to do so" it will be done as fast as i click.

And here we have the issue: why should I use an OmniMech when a standard is technically more customizable? If we make it harder to own a Standard, won't everybody just switch to Omnis? PGI is trying to keep all options viable here in order to maintain a sustainable game. With partially limited Omni customization (remember, we still don't know how weapon pods will work yet), standard 'Mechs remain an attractive option, and thus PGI stands to make money off both technologies.

The way I imagine it would play out is that Standard BattleMechs would give you the option to run any engine/armor/gear configuration you want and limit your choice of weaponry, while OmniMechs would allow you to run any weapon configuration you want while limiting your choice of engine/armor/gear. So you get to choose between customizing performance (IS) or firepower (Clan). I'm hoping technology is constrained to the 'Mech type (ClanTech for Clan 'Mechs only).

Unfortunately for us diehard fans, we are not the future of the game. In order to survive, PGI needs to make the game as accessible as possible, which means appealing to the more casual fans (or even gamers who aren't invested in the universe). This means instant gratification, which means instant customization. All other criticals-based MechLabs (MW2 and 3) made every 'Mech completely customizable, and that didn't make things a lot of fun because everyone automatically defaulted to ClanTech. MW4 made it a little bit of a challenge by limiting certain hardpoints, but still you had the opportunity to use ClanTech weapons wherever you wanted. PGI has the opportunity to create competing tech bases here, and they're rolling with it, not only to give us some of that TT flavor that we wanted, but also to add another layer to the game to keep it moving forward.

When everything is special, nothing is special. But when you have two things special in their own ways, that's where things get interesting.

[Jevto]

the way you want to change this is absolutely stupid.
the best answer would be this: make them more expensive then IS tech. IS is outdated, why would anyone use it then? make it like you would in they would in the battletech universe. that's what your original plan was, right? make them expensive, then let the IS tech slowly disappear and the clan tech should take over. seriously, if you haven't thought out this well, then you shouldn't have even started with it. I stopped playing because you make the game worse and worse.

Honestly, I don't even see why you would read this post. you have 10000 posts so **** it. I gotta go back to hawken and don't even get annoyed by such stupid news.

[Grevar]

And what we will

ValdnadHartagga, on 25 December 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

The way I imagine it would play out is that Standard BattleMechs would give you the option to run any engine/armor/gear configuration you want and limit your choice of weaponry, while OmniMechs would allow you to run any weapon configuration you want while limiting your choice of engine/armor/gear. So you get to choose between customizing performance (IS) or firepower (Clan). I'm hoping technology is constrained to the 'Mech type (ClanTech for Clan 'Mechs only).

Unfortunately for us diehard fans, we are not the future of the game. In order to survive, PGI needs to make the game as accessible as possible, which means appealing to the more casual fans (or even gamers who aren't invested in the universe). This means instant gratification, which means instant customization. All other criticals-based MechLabs (MW2 and 3) made every 'Mech completely customizable, and that didn't make things a lot of fun because everyone automatically defaulted to ClanTech. MW4 made it a little bit of a challenge by limiting certain hardpoints, but still you had the opportunity to use ClanTech weapons wherever you wanted. PGI has the opportunity to create competing tech bases here, and they're rolling with it, not only to give us some of that TT flavor that we wanted, but also to add another layer to the game to keep it moving forward.

When everything is special, nothing is special. But when you have two things special in their own ways, that's where things get interesting.

This will not work, clans will be just too hot! ( in stok configs too, they not usable now and never be with such heating mechanic) You see, i use in last few weeks stalker with 4 ER LL, everything else in mech is engine and heatsing. and this config is damn hot even i shoot at once only with 2 of them. And now look at "standart" config of DIre Wolf - HOW the **** it must operate and survive???
just to remind it have this armament by default:
Primary Configuration
4x ER Large Lasers
4x Medium Pulse Lasers
2x Ultra Autocannon/5s
1x LRM-10
just imagine that - ok in this battle i'll use 2 ultras and MLL, and in next 3 ER LL, nad after next mix 1 ER LL, 1 LRM and 1 UAC. Obviusly it will be too hot to operate all this weapon at once. also distance are good for all of this weapons so in such visibility were will be no long or mid range variant of usage.

With that gameplay "tweaks", what we already have, it's IMPOSSIBLE to play on default configs and absolutly pointless to have "heavy" weaponed mechs. Right now most popular configs have not that much weapon, maximum heatsinks and armor.
And now we back to WHY this happen - because PGI cannot in heat balance. And this problem is also what they have from beginning (beta). All this tweaks were just attemps to shut the hole in sinking ship, and heat dispatch and heat generation mechanic is still broken.
But because they just don't want to spend time and money for redesign such things were will be no future for not customizable mechs, because standarts are too hot and have to much unusable armament.

[Lucian Nostra]

Wolf87535, on 24 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I have a better idea, leave the clan tech EXACTLY how it compares between IS and Clans on the TT (No min range LRM, SSRM6, etc). Make omni mechs EXACTLY how they appear. No customization at all. Period. A Timber Wolf A is a Timber Wolf A, exactly like every other Timber Wolf A. The limitations on customization will balance the far superior tech, Clans balanced.
Complete that with 2 stars (10 mechs) vs. 3 lances (12 mechs).

uhm naw no thanks. A catapult k2 is a catapult k2 same as anyother Catapult k2 but PGI already screwed the pooch on that

[ValdnadHartagga]

Grevar, on 25 December 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

This will not work, clans will be just too hot! ( in stok configs too, they not usable now and never be with such heating mechanic) You see, i use in last few weeks stalker with 4 ER LL, everything else in mech is engine and heatsing. and this config is damn hot even i shoot at once only with 2 of them. And now look at "standart" config of DIre Wolf - HOW the **** it must operate and survive???
just to remind it have this armament by default:
Primary Configuration
4x ER Large Lasers
4x Medium Pulse Lasers
2x Ultra Autocannon/5s
1x LRM-10
just imagine that - ok in this battle i'll use 2 ultras and MLL, and in next 3 ER LL, nad after next mix 1 ER LL, 1 LRM and 1 UAC. Obviusly it will be too hot to operate all this weapon at once. also distance are good for all of this weapons so in such visibility were will be no long or mid range variant of usage.

With that gameplay "tweaks", what we already have, it's IMPOSSIBLE to play on default configs and absolutly pointless to have "heavy" weaponed mechs. Right now most popular configs have not that much weapon, maximum heatsinks and armor.
And now we back to WHY this happen - because PGI cannot in heat balance. And this problem is also what they have from beginning (beta). All this tweaks were just attemps to shut the hole in sinking ship, and heat dispatch and heat generation mechanic is still broken.
But because they just don't want to spend time and money for redesign such things were will be no future for not customizable mechs, because standarts are too hot and have to much unusable armament.

Heat management has always been a major part of BattleTech, which you must remember is a turn-based strategy game which was designed to make players think about the risks before committing to action. There is always a consequence to every action, even just walking. Depending on the ruleset, a 'Mech can even destroy itself by firing a weapon (Hollander II). Many of these consequences have been removed from (or haven't been added to) MWO.

Half of MechWarrior, any of the games, is still about personal strategy and consequences. If your 'Mech is designed to eventually overheat (and virtually all canon designs are due to the nature of the TT game), then you have to fight smarter. Just because you have options does not mean you need to use them all. Most of us configure smarter by opting for heat-neutral designs, armored to the max with the highest-damage weapons for the remaining tonnage, but at the end of the day it's all running and gunning as quickly as possible. The thing is, no one wants to sacrifice anything. Very few people in the game sacrifice armor for speed or guns, it's all more or less balanced builds, using every last critical and last decimal of tonnage possible, with as few expected consequences as possible (with the exception of the UAC/5 which still seems to be pretty popular). MWO is not the exception - look at any MechWarrior game, every competitive custom design you see will be optimized for heat, firepower, and armor regardless of the heat balance.

For a better MechWarrior game, we don't just have to address the heat scale, but the fundamental way that people play the game (and that will never change). Sometimes I think the folks running troll builds are having way more fun than with competitive ones, because they are giving themselves challenges to overcome (or fail spectacularly at doing so).

[PeaceMaKeR38]

I don't think it's a good idea ... It would reduce hardly the balance
Some monstrous builds gonna appear ... And I guess the fun will disappear too

[RedMaple]

My biggest problem is that I just spent $90 on the Phonex package and now the clan preorder is already right around the corner asking for our money. We don't even have CW yet let alone UI 2.0. I really would like to buy the Masakari package but I have a big problem dropping $240 when these other things have not been delivered.

[Taemien]

I'll say one thing, I did predict these shenanigans would happen:

Taemien, on 21 October 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Also who wants to wager that clanners come on here complaining how 'bad' their tech is compared to IS? When several of their weapons generate more heat then they thought, have charge mechanics (aka Gauss), and are more restricted by Heatscaling (ghost heat). I've called this in some earlier threads before, but just saying it here so more people get to see it lol.

Not the earliest post that I said about the topic, but it about sums up how easy it is to predict this community.

RedMaple, on 25 December 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

My biggest problem is that I just spent $90 on the Phonex package and now the clan preorder is already right around the corner asking for our money. We don't even have CW yet let alone UI 2.0. I really would like to buy the Masakari package but I have a big problem dropping $240 when these other things have not been delivered.

What's the issue exactly? If you want the mechs and premium time, buy them. If you don't, then don't. CW and UI 2.0 are free either way. It comes down to trust. They said they continued their contract till 2018. If you trust they'll get the features out by the time you want them out, then purchase their service. If you don't trust them, then head on your merry way.

People say this is the only BT game there is, which isn't true. There's MechWarrior Tactics, MechWarrior Living Legends, Blender BattleTech, and MegaMek. MW4 also if you know where to look.

[Trifler]

Hmm. IMO the Clans shouldn't be balanced with IS mechs. The Clans have superior mechs but with fewer numbers. Why not instead make it so that clan mechs reduce the total number of mechs available to the team? For example, a Clan mech could be worth 1.5 mechs, so if there are two Clan mechs on a team, they have one fewer mechs than the other team.

[Russhuster]

there should not be mixed teams at all would any clanner fight aside a spherer?
the clans could be introduced as factions in the system and matches filled up that way one side consisting clans the other side IS
so no mixed battles with clan and is on the same side

Rußhuster

[Taemien]

Trifler, on 25 December 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Hmm. IMO the Clans shouldn't be balanced with IS mechs. The Clans have superior mechs but with fewer numbers. Why not instead make it so that clan mechs reduce the total number of mechs available to the team? For example, a Clan mech could be worth 1.5 mechs, so if there are two Clan mechs on a team, they have one fewer mechs than the other team.

So 8v12 in the premade queue?

You do understand that MWO doesn't have team deathmatch, well of course you do.. well at least I'm going to assume you do.

With 4 less mechs. How does a clan based team defend bases in either Assault or Conquest? I've asked this many times and never got an answer.

Well I did.. but it wasn't good enough. They said clan mechs are faster... cept that an Uller, their quickest in the lineup runs 97kph. Almost 50kph slower than a Raven 4X, almost 60kph slower than most other light mechs. Most other clan mechs run about 81kph. They'll be quick enough to get bogged down by IS assaults, while anything light, medium, or heavy runs around and caps them.

Why engage superior tech when you can just out cap them? Makes sense in the lore everyone's clinging to. Dirty Spheroids win dishonorably and clans can't do anything about it.

Not much fun for the clanners though. But they are worth some good salvage bonuses to the IS.

[Bad Alchemy]

Clan weapon implementations seem okay, but the chassis are a joke. You've taken the only truly customizable mechs in the universe and made them less customizable than IS which aren't?

To the point, IS mechs can have HS where they want, whatever engine size within a range and whatever structure.
Clan can swap a ballistic hardpoint in a missile hard point... so what? Thats the same as buying different IS variants... except the IS mechs have more options.

Clan mechs should of been chassis you earn with faction rep by fighting for a house which would of been more in keeping with the lore. Being able to buy them outright will make them common as muck and so will all variants from day one of their implementation.