1978 replies to this topic

[SaltBeef]

I know but you just cannot ignore 30+ yrs of Battletech history! It will be a very difficult venture to stray away into uncharted territory. CW will have to reflect this backstory.

[Veebora]

NRP, on 26 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I don't know. Mech customization is one of the things that makes this game fun and intriguing, at least for me. IMO, limiting flexibility and customization is the wrong way to go.

300% agree

[KIUN3]

Hi,

If following direction is naive then I would like to be corrected by someone informed who can say that most of spending customers are here for shooting robots and dont care about BT lore and atmosphere.

If we want the clan experience close to the lore shouldn't it be so that:
- clan tech is OP
- only the best pilots in the game(high ELO or KD, XP or whatever) have opportunity to play clan mechs for a long while untill clan tech becomes more popular or there are IS upgrades available. They can get encouraged to act according to the lore. I understand that BT experience is what founders threw their money at so they might want to follow.
- rest of us get the chance to get some of clan tech through salvage or very overpriced purchases
- matches vs clans are balanced in tonnage or number of mechs in favor of IS and still are very challenging

At the end of the day only the best clan pilots got the honor of participating in the invasion. It will be so pitifull to see clan mech bouncing off the walls in hands of some poor pilot with thick wallet.
Buying clan weapon after match won against clan for a little MC is much easier then spending 240$ at once.

As much as it seems couter intuitive from money making perspective for the game I can see a lot of ways to get cash out of current players and others that will join to get this closer to the lore experience.
The word will spread and more players will join. IMHO much more than will join then after all the drama about clan package prices. Except for MW fans the new players I saw were introduced and trained by MW fan already playing the game. I heard of the game from another fan.

On the other side fair play to PGI with educating the consumer base so that they discuss if 6$ is better then 10$ for something that exists only inside a game, is just one of 50 mechs you can use. Will dissapear when we get MWO2 and loses value with each promotion and new content issued or changes in the game balance. 120$ for some in game content that is already or will be shortly mostly free-to-grind is now given by players as an example of decent value for money. :-o
Well done marketing dept. I salute you. You might be totally right in everything you do since you managed this.

[GODzillaGSPB]

NRP, on 26 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I don't know. Mech customization is one of the things that makes this game fun and intriguing, at least for me. IMO, limiting flexibility and customization is the wrong way to go.

Think about this: PGI was afraid that if they limit customization, they would lose players. So they implemented IS mechs as customizeable as possible, despite people warning them what it would mean for Clan mechs.

And now we are here, a year later... The irony is strong with this one.

[Taemien]

NRP, on 26 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Customization doesn't have to break the game though.

Also, it's not very useful to imo to talk about what happened in the novels with the Clans and the IS. This is an online PvP game. Totally different thing.

The problem we have is these people are talking about novels and lore like they actually own a book. The fact is, they haven't and think they are BattleTech experts from just glancing at a wiki article on Sarna.

They've never read TechManual, they've never read TRO:3050, and they've never actually played a TT game.

But you are right, this isn't the same thing as the TT game. Mechwarrior never has been, won't be, and never will be.

[AllGamer]

not spending another penny on this game until UI 2.0 and community warfare gets released

[Stormwolf]

Well, the current customization options for we have for BattleMechs are way too lenient. The main problem here is that there's infinite supplies of all components and no repair and rearm system. There are way too many factory level refit options, this pretty much kills the viability of omnitech right away.

Even more so, in-universe most alterations on mechs usually revolve around refit kits, they usually allowed one variant to be changed to another. You could refit your Warhammer WHM-6R into a WHM-7K with the right facilities and technicians.

If anything there should have been limited parts and ammo. But this was all dumbed down to appease the players who are only here for the customization gimmick. Although that is the only thing that this game has to offer given the absolute lack of everything else.

They should have used the StratOps rules, but never allow any factory level stuff:

Quote

Class A Refit (Field): This kit allows players to replace one weapon with another of the same category and with the same (or fewer) critical spaces (including ammunition). For example, players may replace a medium laser with a medium pulse laser or ER medium laser, or replace an AC/10 with an LB 10-X AC, and so on.

Class B Refit (Field): This kit allows replacement of one category of weapon with another class, but with the same or fewer critical spaces (including ammunition); for example, replacing a machine gun and ammo with a small pulse laser, replacing an AC/10 with an ER large laser, and so on.

Class C Refit (Maintenance): This kit allows players to replace one type of armor with another (all locations); for example, replacing standard armor with ferro-fibrous. A Class C kit also enables replacement of a weapon or item of equipment with any other, even if it is larger than the item(s) being replaced; for example, replacing an ER large laser with an LRM-10 launcher and ammunition. Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution, move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink.

Class D Refit (Maintenance): This kit permits players to install a new item where previously there was none, or to install an ECM suite, C3 system or targeting computer. Players may also change heat sink types or engine ratings (but not the engine type). Finally, a Class D kit allows players to replace a location with a custom part.

Class E Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change the type of myomer installed, install CASE, and/or increase the unit’s Quality Rating one level.

Class F Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change a unit’s internal structure type (all locations), engine type, gyro type, or cockpit type. If a fusion engine is replaced by another type of power plant, i.e. Fission or ICE, then the total number of heat sinks mounted should be adjusted as indicated on the bonus heat sink table (see p. 71, TM).

CUSTOMIZING
Customizing is the practice of installing non-factory replacement parts in a unit to improve or modify its performance. Omni units are designed to use interchangeable modular pods,
so they are rarely customized. However, even Omni chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures.

DropShips, JumpShips, WarShips and Space Stations can only be customized with the assistance of a functioning shipyard. Some examples of custom refits are found on published
record sheets. They can be identified by their designation, which includes the name of individual for whom they were customized; for example, “BLK-6-KNT Black Knight Ian” is the
designation of a customized Black Knight.
(Warning! Performing customization of any unit will invalidate its warranty.)

Customizing and Construction Rules
Generally, players must follow Classic BattleTech constructiontion rules when customizing a unit. A player cannot simply strap a couple of new medium lasers onto an existing design, as this would make the unit two tons too heavy. Other components must be removed or changed to make the appropriate space and weight available for new systems. However, players
need not observe the standard construction prohibition against mixing technology bases when customizing units. Clan parts can be installed in Inner Sphere units and vice versa, though such modifications may be a bit more difficult than standard replacements. All other standard construction rules still apply.

Custom designs are classified in the same manner as refit kits, and the installation process is essentially identical, except that an additional +2 TN modifier is applied and the time required
is double that of a refit kit. Customization automatically reduces the Quality Rating of the unit by one level. If individual components are being tracked, the reduction applies to all components, new and old. This reduction is in addition to the one imposed if the Technician Skill Check fails.

To further explain:
- Installation of components can fail if your technicians don't have enough know-how. At best they have to try again, at worst they break the part you were trying to have installed.
- MWO's ECM is nothing like the TT ECM, TT ECM only blocks Artemis, C3, BAP and NARC. So it's not a big deal to mount ECM.
- Low quality items can give out, so your custom death machine can have its weapons malfunction in the heat of battle or have a leg freeze.
- Most militaries aren't going to be footing the bill for your non-standard design. Mechs like (Grand) Dragons and Centurions have supply lines devoted to them. That gauss you popped in there won't be getting a replacement any time soon unless you brought your own reserves.
- Factories are off-limits for most people, Justin Allard only got the Yen-Lo-Wang because he had the right connections and was secretly backed by Hanse Davion. The factories themselves are generally automated and continued to function when most of the advanced construction knowledge was lost.
- TT tournaments have a restriction to mechs with official recordsheets (stock builds). The only "customs" you can field are in-universe customs like let's say Natasha Kerensky's Widowmaker. This was done so people couldn't field the most optimal abusive builds, this is pretty much what is happening in MWO by allowing customization.
- OmniMechs don't suffer from the same restrictions as mentioned above, you only need need to stay away from "hardwired" components like engines and armor. You can still customize hardwired components, but the mech will lose its omni capability.

In short, fielding customs would have been far more interesting if you had to deal with the problems that come with them.

[Sharknoms]

KIUN3, on 26 December 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Hi,

If following direction is naive then I would like to be corrected by someone informed who can say that most of spending customers are here for shooting robots and dont care about BT lore and atmosphere.

If we want the clan experience close to the lore shouldn't it be so that:
- clan tech is OP
- only the best pilots in the game(high ELO or KD, XP or whatever) have opportunity to play clan mechs for a long while untill clan tech becomes more popular or there are IS upgrades available. They can get encouraged to act according to the lore. I understand that BT experience is what founders threw their money at so they might want to follow.
- rest of us get the chance to get some of clan tech through salvage or very overpriced purchases
- matches vs clans are balanced in tonnage or number of mechs in favor of IS and still are very challenging



*snip*

Are you serious?
Like someone buy the a tier of the Clan Collection and then can't play the mechs because some magical numbers denies it?
I bet the people who suggest this solution, are the same people whining afterwards that because of the magical ELO they cant play their own Clan Mechs.

[Sandtiger]

Allen Ward, on 23 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

I must admit, I don't go for the winning build, weapon, faction whatever at first chance....but....what will oyu do if everybody else does? Hell, I even bought a 2xAC20 Jagermech now, after getting pissed off for several dozen games by all those kiddies instakilling with that ****** mech. After a while you get forced out of the game or into the playstyle that the community adapts. And the game allows for pretty rotten playstyles. I still vote for: kick out the entire hardpoint system. Give us stock mechs, dozens of them, hundreds of them, and everything will be fine. You think stock mechs are boring? No flexibilty? The mind boggling number of stock mechs available in BT is much much greater than any number of builds MWO will ever see. How much variety do you have in MWO now? Out of 12 Mechs I can tell you 6 builds fielded before the game starts. All those Spiders, Jagermechs, Stalkers, and so on builds that everybody runs. So what good is the hardpoint system, if it takes about one evening after release of a chassis to find the "best builds"? You out there who belong to the old kind of honest and stout warriors that would never fall for such "cheese" builds...have fun being taken apart by the red side. I know it's not 100% like that, but the trend is like that. And who is to blame? It's natural to go for the optimized build. And the goal is to win after all, not to play stylish or according to canon. I run mechs that are built after their BT stock originals. They are hopelessly underpowered and not fun to play. Don't rely on the players to keep any kind of balance...

Not true! the Jagerbuild hit hard, but they had {Scrap} armor. I tried it for about three matches and said ICK! as I gladly sold it. I have to dispute what you are saying. Many of the stock mechs are lethal if you know how to use them. Take the stalker line for example.

This game is Mechwarrior, not rockem-sockem robots!...oh, it is becoming so... isn't it....

[Sandtiger]

Taemien, on 25 December 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

So 8v12 in the premade queue?

You do understand that MWO doesn't have team deathmatch, well of course you do.. well at least I'm going to assume you do.

With 4 less mechs. How does a clan based team defend bases in either Assault or Conquest? I've asked this many times and never got an answer.

Well I did.. but it wasn't good enough. They said clan mechs are faster... cept that an Uller, their quickest in the lineup runs 97kph. Almost 50kph slower than a Raven 4X, almost 60kph slower than most other light mechs. Most other clan mechs run about 81kph. They'll be quick enough to get bogged down by IS assaults, while anything light, medium, or heavy runs around and caps them.

Why engage superior tech when you can just out cap them? Makes sense in the lore everyone's clinging to. Dirty Spheroids win dishonorably and clans can't do anything about it.

Not much fun for the clanners though. But they are worth some good salvage bonuses to the IS.

Actually, we do have Skirmish mode now...thank GOD!

[Christopher Hamilton]

you want feedback regarding the clans ? here it is.
they are what broke classic battletech and led to the "arms race" that was level 3 tech.
this is a loose loose battle - if you mod the specs of the weapons (e.g. weight), you will make basic variants impossible stuff that people identify with. if you bring in clan mechs for everyone without changes, we all gonna quit or ride clan next year.
no other choice. its like stopping a 3055 army with 3025 forces, only exponentially worse.
you could reduce unit size to a binary, but still the sheer firepower of a pure clan unit (which is going to have a few direwolves with lasers) is going to be game unbalancing. pricing is off the limit, too.

make it a choice of the "you download another frontend, you can only buy clan stuff there" type. otherwise you need to deal with mixed gear mechs (yup, someone is going to put two clan ER Lg Laser in a Jenner, with clan DHS), i can also see a locust with LRM20 on the horizon *cough*. so if you honestly MUST provide these mechs, allow people to choose wether they want to fight on the clan war front.

I wont. for game balance reasons and because Kerensky was a traitor, and as such i still consider orbital bombardement the only deserving treatment for those people in-game. they first ****** up the periphery in new vandenberg in the 2700s, then ran away from the mess they created and then come back for salvation ? whats gonna come next ? ComStar mechs ? those people honestly also deserve a significant ramp-up in people power at heimdal, DEST and the other silent knives departments.

the only advantage the inner sphere ever had was supply lines, artillery, tanks & other conventionals en masse and enforced structures and mine fields. this is going to take the fun out of this game. i can immediately imagine where i would put my killzones on maps in a way that no mech comes thru alive.

tl;dr
come clans vs inner sphere unbalanced or historically incorrect, i will consider this a total loss of investment and quit.

[Sandtiger]

Stormwolf, on 26 December 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well, the current customization options for we have for BattleMechs are way too lenient. The main problem here is that there's infinite supplies of all components and no repair and rearm system. There are way too many factory level refit options, this pretty much kills the viability of omnitech right away.

Even more so, in-universe most alterations on mechs usually revolve around refit kits, they usually allowed one variant to be changed to another. You could refit your Warhammer WHM-6R into a WHM-7K with the right facilities and technicians.

If anything there should have been limited parts and ammo. But this was all dumbed down to appease the players who are only here for the customization gimmick. Although that is the only thing that this game has to offer given the absolute lack of everything else.

They should have used the StratOps rules, but never allow any factory level stuff:



To further explain:
- Installation of components can fail if your technicians don't have enough know-how. At best they have to try again, at worst they break the part you were trying to have installed.
- MWO's ECM is nothing like the TT ECM, TT ECM only blocks Artemis, C3, BAP and NARC. So it's not a big deal to mount ECM.
- Low quality items can give out, so your custom death machine can have its weapons malfunction in the heat of battle or have a leg freeze.
- Most militaries aren't going to be footing the bill for your non-standard design. Mechs like (Grand) Dragons and Centurions have supply lines devoted to them. That gauss you popped in there won't be getting a replacement any time soon unless you brought your own reserves.
- Factories are off-limits for most people, Justin Allard only got the Yen-Lo-Wang because he had the right connections and was secretly backed by Hanse Davion. The factories themselves are generally automated and continued to function when most of the advanced construction knowledge was lost.
- TT tournaments have a restriction to mechs with official recordsheets (stock builds). The only "customs" you can field are in-universe customs like let's say Natasha Kerensky's Widowmaker. This was done so people couldn't field the most optimal abusive builds, this is pretty much what is happening in MWO by allowing customization.
- OmniMechs don't suffer from the same restrictions as mentioned above, you only need need to stay away from "hardwired" components like engines and armor. You can still customize hardwired components, but the mech will lose its omni capability.

In short, fielding customs would have been far more interesting if you had to deal with the problems that come with them.

Lies, Slander, and Calumny! I have all the books, for the game, and have read most of the books in the series. I’m calling you out on this one. Battlemech’s were customizable if you had the money. That’s what this whole canon is based on, just as in the really real world. Dollar Signs! so if you had the money to retrofit that stalker the way you wanted it, that was fine. You just had to pay for it. You didn’t have to be someone famous, or royalty to get your mech the way you wanted it.

Epic Fail, try again. =]

[Kraven Kor]

Iguana Iguana, on 26 December 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Are you serious?
Like someone buy the a tier of the Clan Collection and then can't play the mechs because some magical numbers denies it?
I bet the people who suggest this solution, are the same people whining afterwards that because of the magical ELO they cant play their own Clan Mechs.

I think you missed the fact that he was not saying this is how it should be; but rather how it *would be* if we followed lore.

[Kraven Kor]

Sandtiger, on 26 December 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Lies, Slander, and Calumny! I have all the books, for the game, and have read most of the books in the series. I’m calling you out on this one. Battlemech’s were customizable if you had the money. That’s what this whole canon is based on, just as in the really real world. Dollar Signs! so if you had the money to retrofit that stalker the way you wanted it, that was fine. You just had to pay for it. You didn’t have to be someone famous, or royalty to get your mech the way you wanted it.

Epic Fail, try again. =]

Well, that depended on your GM.

I played in one campaign that was kind of "anything goes;" I ran a Wolverine with a hatchet IIRC. And then another that was very lore-heavy - such that I went from one battle to the next in a Whitworth missing half its armor and an LRM that we had the techs plug the tubes with salvaged Medium Lasers (tech rolls and all) as that was all we had. Pretty much straight from the lore on how the HBK-4P came to be - a field refit where they plugged the missile tubes with salvaged medium lasers.

[Sandtiger]

Kraven Kor, on 26 December 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Well, that depended on your GM.

I played in one campaign that was kind of "anything goes;" I ran a Wolverine with a hatchet IIRC. And then another that was very lore-heavy - such that I went from one battle to the next in a Whitworth missing half its armor and an LRM that we had the techs plug the tubes with salvaged Medium Lasers (tech rolls and all) as that was all we had. Pretty much straight from the lore on how the HBK-4P came to be - a field refit where they plugged the missile tubes with salvaged medium lasers.

True, Game Masters could modify the game at their whim to make sure the flow of storyline or combat was where they wanted it to be. However, what our comrade was saying about mechs not being customizable in the sense that "Factories are off-limits for most people, Justin Allard only got the Yen-Lo-Wang because he had the right connections and was secretly backed by Hanse Davion. The factories themselves are generally automated and continued to function when most of the advanced construction knowledge was lost." is true only in the rarest of senses. Many Technicians were not only viable, but readily accessible. You just had to pay for them. It is true that you could only get Defiance Large Lasers from Defiance arms, but that is not saying that competitors didn't carry your products. Salvage was also a big factor. The ability to scrounge components from fallen Battlemech’s or scrap yards was also a factor.

But the idea that mechs were super hard to repair because of component availability is being over exaggerated in the extreme. Again, it falls back to how much money you had. Did you have enough money to get the equipment, or didn't you. Prices would vary depending upon alliances also, but once again it didn't mean that I couldn't buy a homoto-chi from the draconis combine had I the C-bills to purchase it. I also could have my new ride modified however I wanted if I had the currency to do so.

I followedthe link above, and it had nothing to do with what he was saying. I did find it to be a good love story for the battletech canon. =] Once again Epic Fail!

Edited by Sandtiger, 26 December 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[Sharknoms]

Kraven Kor, on 26 December 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I think you missed the fact that he was not saying this is how it should be; but rather how it *would be* if we followed lore.

I know I know.
But imagine the uproar if founders couldn't use their Atlas on buying the founder package, because House Steiner doesn't love them.

[KIUN3]

Iguana Iguana, on 26 December 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Are you serious?
Like someone buy the a tier of the Clan Collection and then can't play the mechs because some magical numbers denies it?
I bet the people who suggest this solution, are the same people whining afterwards that because of the magical ELO they cant play their own Clan Mechs.

1. This is as is could have been to be close to the lore. I dont want to start with list of other things I think could be done or marketed differently from business perspective as, like most, I have my own opinions. And emmotional attachment to the brand.
2. This "good pilots" would get the offer first or to get the mechs earlier. Much as retail company makes presale limited to only loyalty card holders(im not in this group just to be clear). Seeing this mechs perform well in good hands would make more ppl buy than just posting list of mech names which dont mean nothing to someone not familiar with BT. And good pilots will make them perform well even with some nerfs compared to the lore. On top of that core fanbase seems to be well invested in the game(they are probably those good pilots) so this offer would make them feel appreciated and, perhaps, turn them into promoters of the game instead of situation this forum is showing at the moment. Having option to play your Madcat in March for ?$ is tempting isn't it? And having opportunity to be the Real invasion is nice reward for founder or someone who invested countless hours in playing the game.
3. Selling bits and pieces of clan tech to all the others during this phase would generate extra income. And perhaps be another incentive to buy the package. Just one erml or ssrm4 dropping here and there for 2$ :-)
4. Having this, new, gear in competent hands(competitive players as well) could quicker show any ballancing issues that could be addressed before full rollout. Having this present only on one side of the matches could greatly reduce the whining and griefing before it would be corrected. It is expected to be OP Clan tech right? ;-)
5. All this doesn't stop anyone who bought the package from getting and playing one. Back to the lore: at some point clans started to send kids "fresh from the tanks" to fight. right?

This all could still be done. I hoped to play great MW again since MW2 and this is one of the ways I think it could progress from the point we're at to keep role playing immersion fans like me happy without hurting other players and the business.

Edited by KIUN3, 26 December 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Sharknoms]

KIUN3, on 26 December 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

1. This is as is could have been to be close to the lore. I dont want to start with list of other things I think could be done or marketed differently from business perspective as, like most, I have my own opinions. And emmotional attachment to the brand.
2. This "good pilots" would get the offer first or to get the mechs earlier. Much as retail company makes presale limited to only loyalty card holders(im not in this group just to be clear). Seeing this mechs perform well in good hands would make more ppl buy than just posting list of mech names which dont mean nothing to someone not familiar with BT. And good pilots will make them perform well even with some nerfs compared to the lore. On top of that core fanbase seems to be well invested in the game(they are probably those good pilots) so this offer would make them feel appreciated and, perhaps, turn them into promoters of the game instead of situation this forum is showing at the moment. Having option to play your Madcat in March for ?$ is tempting isn't it? And having opportunity to be the Real invasion is nice reward for founder or someone who invested countless hours in playing the game.
3. Selling bits and pieces of clan tech to all the others during this phase would generate extra income. And perhaps be another incentive to buy the package. Just one erml or ssrm4 dropping here and there for 2$ :-)
4. Having this, new, gear in competent hands(competitive players as well) could quicker show any ballancing issues that could be addressed before full rollout. Having this present only on one side of the matches could greatly reduce the whining and griefing before it would be corrected. It is expected to be OP Clan tech right? ;-)
5. All this doesn't stop anyone who bought the package from getting and playing one. Back to the lore: at some point clans started to send kids "fresh from the tanks" to fight. right?

This all could still be done. I hoped to play great MW again since MW2 and this is one of the ways I think it could progress from the point we're at to keep role playing immersion fans like me happy without hurting other players and the business.

I know, lore wise it could be a good idea to have something to work for. I also have to admit the idea to balance from "top" to "bottom" is the best way to get any role warfare and such into the game. But well ELO <.< and without proper tournaments we will never have any real clue who is a hotshot and who is the loudmouth. And no, challenges aren't a way to determine who is good and who is bad. (Hell, even I am able to win a match from time to time xD )

Anyways, as long as I can pilot the clan mechs upon release because i preorder them I'm fine.

And just someone on topic:
Clan Tech should have a clear advantage over IS Tech. And I also think Clan Mechs should be fully customizable.

[Wolfways]

Veebora, on 26 December 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

300% agree

Completely disagree. Customization ruined the game imo.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 26 December 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Completely disagree. Customization ruined the game imo.

Offtopic for sure.. but in reality customization caused the Whole franchise issues, starting with MW2.

Ok.. I want to know something. Those of you who think Clan should have better tech then they're getting. Why didn't you speak up during the balance passes in MWLL? I never saw this issue pop up like this in their forums. Where was the outrage of higher DPS IS Gauss rifles? More heat efficient regular lasers vs clan er lasers? More consistent Autocannons (jam resistant) vs ultras? The fact that a Bushwhacker (55 ton IS BattleMech) could utterly tear up a Loki (65 ton Clan OmniMech).

I think you all are complaining for the sake of complaining. There's actually nothing but hot air and hate for business driving your posts. And I think the real reason is because you all saw it work in MWLL and it was well known that it worked. You'd have been laughed out of the forums for suggesting otherwise. Now you're afraid of this coming to pass here. Unless I'm missing something, feel free to elaborate.