1978 replies to this topic

[Alienfreak]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

There's this little thing called "Guardian ECM". You should try it, hoses targeting computers like magic. (Incidentally, Clan pulse lasers haven't worked with targeting computers for years now- the classic "Clan Cheese"). Also, the joys of the BV system. Please, put out your great pilots with ultra-tech. I get two 'Mechs that can plow it under working together with average IS skills for the same price- and in the average exchange, if you kill one and I kill you anyway, I'm up a 'Mech to go team up on the next. And that snowballs.

Didn't the GECM only nullify
Active Probes
Artemis FCS
Narc
C3 & C3i
?

I don't think it did influence the Targeting Computer at all.
What broke the TT for me was Clan Tech with Targeting Computers. A quadzillion damage from their weapons (with low heat and small DHSs) paired with all hitting the same location (or even choosing which to fire at). That was so GG for me.

[Roland]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Also, the joys of the BV system.

Ignoring the notoriously error prone nature of the BV system, this presupposes the EXISTENCE of a battlevalue system. And really, the entire reason that a battlevalue system was created at all was because of the massive advantages that certain technology has over other technology in the game. It's simply not designed to be balanced.

You totally could take a battlevalue system, if it were correctly implemented (ie not simple battletech BV's), and it could help to address some of the balance issues that will stem from clantech... but straight up 5/8 tonnage ratio? No, that's not gonna work.

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There's this little thing called "Guardian ECM". You should try it, hoses targeting computers like magic.

I don't recall GECM doing anything to clan targeting computers. It wasn't listed as doing so at least.

Quote

(Incidentally, Clan pulse lasers haven't worked with targeting computers for years now- the classic "Clan Cheese").

Well, this is only the case with the Total Warfare rules, which is pretty new (at least from my perspective). But a valid point in that it contains improvements for tournament play which you could implement in MWO. Although I seem to recall that TW contains a ton of rules which haven't really been implemented in MWO anyway.

Although, to be clear, the pulse lasers do work with targeting computers in that they still get a bonus to hit... what's lost is the ability to aim them at specific sections.

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Last time I did that was pulling out some old Unseen models in TT, two lances of 3050-tech IS 'Mechs vs. a star of Clanners. We all had heavies and since he wanted to use tonnage, that's how we did it.

So yes, given similar tonnage and 3050 tech, numerical advantage crushes Clan technology in a straight brawl.

Honestly dude, anecdotal evidence of one match isn't really compelling evidence. I mean, maybe the guy was just trash. Maybe he had unlucky dice. A test case of one isn't really scientific evidence.

Edited by Roland, 09 January 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[GrinNfool]

I can't help but feel if you alter the weights, and heat of clan tech and then try to implement such strict requirement on the omnimechs the clan mechs will come out being very weak, and extremely non customizable.

Biggest issue I see with that is you are talking about increasing heat but you can't customize or increase heat sinks.

You talk about removing the volley fire on the SSRMs but people can't touch their speed, making them susceptible to kiting.

You talk about adding weight to clan weapons, but then people can't increase or decrease their armoring to make up for that.

Then instead of true omni slots we have to piece meal a mech together with presets which involves buying even more mechs, and we still may not get the configuration we want.

I think you need to pick either or on this, either tweak weapons for balance, or tweak the omnimechs (ie clanmechs) for balance. I think the best solution is don't touch the clan weapons balance aside from the clan LRMs, then restrict clan weapons to clan mechs, and follow through with the omnimech changes. The weights and configurations and heat sinks on the clan mechs are based around those weapons being set the way they are. Messing with them and then being strict on the custmozation on omnimechs just seems way to confining.

[Oraeon1224]

As a new player who loves actual battletech even the old Crescent Hawks games. . .why are they introducing the clans. It seems like they have barely scratched the surface of the innersphere or provided a strong innersphere base to then start a clan invasion. Also I personally always found the house conflicts more interesting than the entire clan invasion--though that is a personal choice. Is it just me or should they have focused on innersphere?

[Taemien]

Oraeon1224, on 09 January 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

As a new player who loves actual battletech even the old Crescent Hawks games. . .why are they introducing the clans. It seems like they have barely scratched the surface of the innersphere or provided a strong innersphere base to then start a clan invasion. Also I personally always found the house conflicts more interesting than the entire clan invasion--though that is a personal choice. Is it just me or should they have focused on innersphere?

Theoretically... Clan Fanbois have money.. lots of it apparently.

Of course I'm just ragging on them with this statement

[wanderer]

Alienfreak, on 09 January 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Didn't the GECM only nullify
Active Probes
Artemis FCS
Narc
C3 & C3i
?

I don't think it did influence the Targeting Computer at all.
What broke the TT for me was Clan Tech with Targeting Computers. A quadzillion damage from their weapons (with low heat and small DHSs) paired with all hitting the same location (or even choosing which to fire at). That was so GG for me.

"Ghost images" can be done with an ECM system in tabletop, adds to your to-hit and basically negates targeting computer bonuses instead of the normal ECM effects. Aimed shot rules also changed, making it far tougher even with targeting comps to call a shot like you used to- and pulse lasers explicitly do not work with aimed shot attempts using one, nor does a targeting computer give bonuses to hit on aimed shots in any case (unlike the normal -1).

The nerf bat was swung very hard at that game-breaker, and it actually had a depleted uranium core under the nerf padding.

[wanderer]

Roland, on 09 January 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

[/size]
Ignoring the notoriously error prone nature of the BV system, this presupposes the EXISTENCE of a battlevalue system. And really, the entire reason that a battlevalue system was created at all was because of the massive advantages that certain technology has over other technology in the game. It's simply not designed to be balanced.

You totally could take a battlevalue system, if it were correctly implemented (ie not simple battletech BV's), and it could help to address some of the balance issues that will stem from clantech... but straight up 5/8 tonnage ratio? No, that's not gonna work.

I think it would, actually- because in MWO, people optimize designs and stock layouts are noob fodder. 5 optimized Clan 'Mechs vs. 8 optimized 3050-tech IS machines would work, IMHO. At the least, I'd like to see it happen before we turn Clan 'Mechs into "slightly different but the same" design.

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I don't recall GECM doing anything to clan targeting computers. It wasn't listed as doing so at least.

You've missed a lot if you didn't do tabletop pre-Total Warfare/TacOps (ie, the modern ruleset). Fixes went in.

Quote

Well, this is only the case with the Total Warfare rules, which is pretty new (at least from my perspective). But a valid point in that it contains improvements for tournament play which you could implement in MWO. Although I seem to recall that TW contains a ton of rules which haven't really been implemented in MWO anyway.

Total Warfare dates back to -2006-.

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Although, to be clear, the pulse lasers do work with targeting computers in that they still get a bonus to hit... what's lost is the ability to aim them at specific sections.

Correct. PL's are tremendously accurate, although ECM can be used to compensate for this, as noted above.

Quote

Honestly dude, anecdotal evidence of one match isn't really compelling evidence. I mean, maybe the guy was just trash. Maybe he had unlucky dice. A test case of one isn't really scientific evidence.

That's just the one incident I happened to remember in detail. I've had plenty of similar matches against multiple opponents who subscribed to the "Clan Bulldozer" method. Likewise, I've played the Clan side in those scenarios and won- as noted above. In a 5v8 of that sort, the IS player wins if he can gang up effectively on one/two targets at a time, while the Clan player wins if he can force/trick the IS player into 1v1's (or worse, gang up on the IS player in 2v1's and negate the numerical advantage). As the IS player has more units on the board, it's easier for him to get his focus fire on vs. the Clan opponent, and if he does, the snowball starts rolling downhill fast.

Clan 'Mechs are awesome at ultra-offense, but when you have two-three 'Mechs with decent guns firing back, that offensive firepower degrades quickly- and if you can't generate those numerically even matchups, you end up with the bigger side taking losses, but the smaller, Clan side is -dead-.

Pre Total-Warfare, it was different. The aforementioned cheese-methods of super-accurate firepower meshed with generally inferior IS designs (and TRO 3050 was full of em) led to stock Clan forces having plenty of opportunity to roflstomp IS ones in TT play. This has changed, and given MWO's combat system and a similar numerical imbalance, any Clan force would find the modern MWO force a significant challenge even given Clan-stat tech to do it with.

[Roland]

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I think it would, actually- because in MWO, people optimize designs and stock layouts are noob fodder. 5 optimized Clan 'Mechs vs. 8 optimized 3050-tech IS machines would work, IMHO. At the least, I'd like to see it happen before we turn Clan 'Mechs into "slightly different but the same" design.

Well, frankly, I'd rather we saw some kind of market based BV system, for all mechs, as I've described in the past. Such a system would indeed allow you to have clan mechs which were straight up superior to IS mechs, and still have balanced matches. It would actually fix a lot of the existing balance issues that we currently have, even with only IS tech.

There does not appear to be interest from PGI for making such a system though.

Quote

You've missed a lot if you didn't do tabletop pre-Total Warfare/TacOps (ie, the modern ruleset). Fixes went in

As I said, I don't dispute the notion that Total Warfare is the go-to source for tournament play. I'm not going to argue that it doesn't count or something. Although, I wasn't aware that even in Total Warfare that they made GECM disable targeting computers. I know that they made it such that certain weapons were no longer allowed to aim using targeting computers, but I don't recall GECM actually affecting those TC's at all.

Quote

Total Warfare dates back to -2006-.

Yeah, I realize that's not super recent any more. It's way after I got into Battletech and Mechwarrior though. I mean, the clans were originally introduced in what, 95? 98?

It's moot though, because while the clan tech was broken really bad for a long time, the current tournament rules fixed a lot of it.

And ultimately, I will yield to your superior knowledge of battletech, as really my experience with it has been limited (and is outdated at this point). I was always more into Mechwarrior than Battletech, and really only played around with battletech after getting into mechwarrior (and it was mostly, if not all, prior to Total Warfare).

[Taemien]

You guys got me looking at dates and I found something interesting. TRO:3050 came out in 1996 but MW2 came out in 1995. Does anyone know when the first novel mentioning the clans came out?

[Victor Morson]

Taemien, on 10 January 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

You guys got me looking at dates and I found something interesting. TRO:3050 came out in 1996 but MW2 came out in 1995. Does anyone know when the first novel mentioning the clans came out?

I could be wrong, but I think TRO:3050 get a reprint in '96 (new edition), and had been out for a bit. That said since the Clans invaded before 3050, this makes sense, anyway and I think it covers up to 3052.

ED: Yep, according to Sarna it was first published in 1990 covering up to 3050, the 1996 version covers up to 3052.

EDIT 2: I still don't know the first novel they showed up in though; was there a novel that I missed revolving around the GDL datacore, or was that handled entirely in Field Manuals? My guess is the Clans would appear in that novel, or the novel directly after, since that was really done to set the stage for them.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 January 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[wanderer]

First Clan novel was Lethal Heritage by Stackpole back in 1989.

[LoneWolf33]

ok first of all, Clan tech ALWAYS had better range, with a bit higher heat,damage never was necessarily higher, some games protrayed that others didnt, and trust me i know, ive played ALOT of Mech games that involve clan gear. basicly just make it the following
#1 higher heat generated compared to IS
#2cost more in the market
#3leave the ranges and space alone. clan hardware is MENT to be lighter with a bigger reach its how its always been
oh and also make it to where that players play the IS, and the Clans are NPCs, either that or have the players choose which side, clan or IS this way it would truely seem like the clan wars. oh and for the love of god DO NOT FORGET THE ENHANCED IMAGING SYSTEM!!!!!!!! its the MOST important piece of clan hardware. the whole damn core of their superior aim was that system

[Fallingdreamer]

Ok so not reading though all old post to see if what I want to get across has been said, so I’m probably just rehashing old ground:

Weapon changes: mostly good concepts, a lot of this will need to be tested internally and probably balance post release, though on the SSRMs I’m not sure that your proposed method will have much effect, again time and testing will tell.

As far as changes breaking stock mechs goes: honestly how many people play MWO with a stock mech? I really don’t see the issue, would be more upset with broken gameplay mechanics or clan tech rendering all my existing mechs useless.

On the subject of breaking the lore of the TT game: lets be honest we took it to the drycleaners a long time ago, I would like to see a lot of the look and feel remain but the massive genre shift means changes are necessary, otherwise gameplay is going to suck, be ludicrously unbalanced or require you to fit into a very small range of options to remain competitive and have fun.

Of course the other option is a matchmaking system that penalises the use of clan tech, from what I have read there are several good posts on how this could be done, either option is good.

The omni mech proposal I am not a fan of, based on my understanding of your post the Clan mechs would actually be less adaptable then there IS counterparts, modifying the engine, heatsinks, structure, armour and other items like this are half the fun of designing a mech, and half the challenge, your proposal would in practice mean that we would have (slightly) more control over weapons, but much less control over the rest of the mech.

To be honest I would prefer if they just worked like IS mechs do now, it maintains the fun and challenge of building ones own mech, and minimises the risk of useless chassis (in PVP style combat) due to low armour, bad speed or some other fundamental issue. Some added flexibility with the weapons load outs would be nice (thinking MW 4 stile omni hard points) but this is not a necessity. To be blunt (if I have not already) I would not buy a Clan mech in game (much less with real money) if the current system was used (and I was previously considering buying with money). I implore you to reconsider this part of the proposal and ensure that the feel of “greater flexibility” is maintained by omni mechs.

Aside from that keep up the good work guys, I know you have had your setbacks but I’m sure a lot of us understand that this can happen on large projects, we are just less vocal.

[Shmizzak]

HOW TO BALANCE PGI'S BUSINESS MODEL WITH THE PRODUCTION AND RELEASE OF GAME CONTENT

Since PGI likes to sell each piece of the game as they develop it but they cant seem to figure out a way to implement the clan invasion without breaking the game and making it pay to win.. There is a ton of stuff a player will shell out the bucks for and then there is stuff that they feel insulted in being charged for. like a 500 dollar gold mech....
Here is my solution
:..give us something we would want to buy, repetedly. People do want to support the game but not for the price of a vacation...Not a 500 dollar skin that maybe 4 people will buy, but a reasonably MC priced purchasable mission map.....against CLAN AI.......yes i said AI... "Nobody would buy that " you say? yes i think they would for several reasons'' INCENTIVES and it would solve several of the "invasion" issue..

1 a more common sense approach would be basicly for PGI to test all the clan mechs against us as AI's first, and not to nerf the wpns at all. but By having asymmetrical drops, 12 IS players vs 4 or 8 clan AI's maybe with tonnage modifiers. This will give us the players a chance to face the new wpns and clan mechs and give feed back etc. Eventually AI are going to be in the game as simple rolling vehicles or static defense turrets etc anyway. . AI coding is not that tuff a nut to crack. in fact they are already coded in the last two versions of the game.... and they have the rights to use the AI code if they want to. the AI 's would only be active and available to fight during the pre-release. once the map goes public the clan AI's are taken out. and the map becomes a normal rotation map populated on both sides by players.

2 early access to the first stages of clan tech salvage here. Upon victory you have a slim chance for salvage of some new clan tech weapon. Any clan wpns salvaged go into player inventory and can be sold for c bills but cant be mounted until they have a fully released clan chassis. so when our chassis are released we may have some wpns to fiddle about with.

Also once released and players are in the clan mechs it should still be asymmetrical drops of 12 IS vs 4 or 8 Clan. Since nobody will be able to use any clan tech until its official release anyway. paying for a chance of early salvage does not pose a balance issue nor make it pay to win scenario.

3 Also new map introduction. those that buy the package get early access to the next new map to be released. granted it would not start showing up in the map rotation until the first 12 people have it. but going into the testing grounds would be available until then. I don't think that will be an issue for more than a few minutes after it is available though. if reasonably priced.

benefits to PGI: they get to test each batch of clan mechs and map without having to put them into the hands of players first. as each new batch of mechs to come online, they could be made available to fight against on a new map, a month or 2 before its public release to the rest of players. id pay for that..

as for incentives. Beside the possibility of clan tech salvage and early access to maps. first victory xp or c-bill bonus. Maybe multiple victories could unlock something like a color perhaps or a custom skin, cockpit items or a rank or title of some sort... people pay for colors and skins anyway. People are more apt to pay a little more for the challenge to unlock a color or skin than just buying it.
The price should be something between the cost of a color and low end hero mech or custom skin.
It would have to be low enuff that ppl will feel its a decent deal to repeat buy for the early map access, new clan salvage options and a chance to see next seasons mechs. But since the maps are only exclusive to the buyer for a short time there is no balance issue here either.
during pre-release when playing the against the AI on the new map it would be like the testing ground. it shouldn't affect your k/d or w/L ratios.

PGI could also get creative and for a fee make the mechs in the testing grounds clan AI's that activate on proximity or wake when damaged. They would have to set aside server space because the current testing ground is played locally and that would have to change to keep it server side and safe from hacking. but i think they would have plenty of people paying the fee. Again if reasonable MC/$ price can be found..

now players that don't opt to buy the package aren't going to be missing out on anything that isn't going to be released for c-bills later anyway. They just have to wait longer....i look forward to your analysis of my proposals.

SHMIZZAK

[Blurry]

Taemien, on 08 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Then clan tech doesn't need to be better than IS tech.

Thank you.

It absolutely 100% MUST be better without QUESTION period.
That is the sole reason RUSS gave for the price increase of those mechs.

He cant go back on that. SO sorry but you are 100% wrong and should stop playing internet for today.

[LoneWolf33]

folks clan hardware is was and ALWAYS be superior in various ways, damage can be the same as IS gear, but range MUST be greater and LIGHTER.
and of course as i have stated before, DO NOT FORGET THE ENHANCED IMAGING SYSTEM!!!!!!!!! its the whole damn reason of their extreme accuracy on the Clanners aim. the OLD tv series Battletech plainly explains this fact

[Wolfways]

Blurry, on 11 January 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

It absolutely 100% MUST be better without QUESTION period.
That is the sole reason RUSS gave for the price increase of those mechs.

He cant go back on that. SO sorry but you are 100% wrong and should stop playing internet for today.

Because PGI would never go back on their word...

[Taemien]

Blurry, on 11 January 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

It absolutely 100% MUST be better without QUESTION period.
That is the sole reason RUSS gave for the price increase of those mechs.

He cant go back on that. SO sorry but you are 100% wrong and should stop playing internet for today.

ER Lasers are typically more expensive than Large Lasers. Ultra Auto Cannons are typically more expensive than normal ones. So no {Scrap}.

He can go back, its his game. You agreed to a EULA when you made your account. Sorry YOU are 100% wrong. Perhaps you should stop playing instead and stick your head in a toilet and flush until you pass out.

[Gremlich Johns]

Ya know, if they had just stuck with 3025........

Even as much as I prefer the Clans (not the tech, but "The Clans") I think playing a succession war would have been infinitely more manageable and within the skill levels of the Devs. Clans can always have been a side project for release 3-4 years down the road when the IP would need help staying relevant.

[wanderer]

LoneWolf33, on 11 January 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

folks clan hardware is was and ALWAYS be superior in various ways, damage can be the same as IS gear, but range MUST be greater and LIGHTER.
and of course as i have stated before, DO NOT FORGET THE ENHANCED IMAGING SYSTEM!!!!!!!!! its the whole damn reason of their extreme accuracy on the Clanners aim. the OLD tv series Battletech plainly explains this fact

Canonically, the Battletech cartoon is...a children's cartoon in the Inner Sphere.

No, seriously. That's exactly what it is as explained in the rulebook fluff, repeatedly. IS propaganda for kids to watch on Saturday mornings.