1978 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Perilthecat, on 14 December 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

But there are a ton of people out there who are semi or fully addicted to MW and dangling this kind of thing in front of them is like dangling rocks in front of a crack head. It'll have a cost on people's lives, regardless of the "no one forced them" excuse. Just my opinion.

I enjoyed your post, Peril, but I have to partially disagree with you here - I think there has to be a balance between corporate accountability and personal responsibility. It's true that people can become addicted to online games, but that is a structural problem in their lives. It has little to do with any given game unless that game is deliberately targeting them as addicts. MWO doesn't have this difficulty - and if Phoenix was any guide, they (and you) will be able to obtain refunds up until the packages are actually delivered.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Let me do some Sarna.


Kit Fox (Uller)
Engine Starfire 180 XL
Speed 97.2 km/h

Adder (Puma)
Engine Great Father 210 XL
Speed 97.2 km/h

Good luck driving those advanced Clan lights mechwarriors.

[Fate 6]

Scratx, on 14 December 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

*Clan Omnimech customization sinks in*

*eyes Kit Fox*

Oh, my, that mech is dead on arrival in this game. No, really. 97kph at ~73% armor. On a 30 ton mech. In this game's meta I can already hear the howling.

At least I don't think any of the remaining mechs is as badly armored. And yeah, you should be able to put jumpjets in pod-space, at least!

If I can't recreate my MW2 Dire Wolf with JJs I'm basically done. I've put money into this game for that sole purpose, Clan Omnimechs. I want to put the fear of Wolf into the hearts of Inner Sphere boys.

[Sprouticus]

Void Angel, on 14 December 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

An interesting idea - but it won't work in competitive play. =(

Probably true. But as a method of balance for people grinding and in casual games it would work pretty well.

[prentice]

This article inspired no confidence in me. I've spent a lot of money on this game and right now there is no chance I'm going to buy the clan pack.

On the subject of balance: I fully support making clan tech different, not better than IS. However most of what is covered here is TERRIBLE.

Lets look at the LRM 20 first. Based on what you're proposing:
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 180m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 10
Crit(Slots): 5

Clan Tech (MWO):

Heat: 7
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: Soft cap at 180
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 7
Crit(Slots): 4

You're proposing the Clan LRM 20 has 1 more heat in exchange for:
-Dealing damage below 180m
-One less crit
-THREE fewer tons

I know this is a first draft. However your first draft shows the IS LRM20 as completely and totally obsoleted.

Why should I trust PGI to balance a game when their "eyeball" balancing is clearly WAYYYYYY off base?

[TheSteelRhino]

And here we go again. So you guys dont want clan packs for Christmas?

Ever since this game out ppl have been screaming fo CW and clans. The teams that make the mechs are not the same that are writing UI 2.0. They have different teams working in parallel. Think of it like a house. Some guys are Roofing while the plumber installs pipes, and the brick layer is starting to brick it...

It utterly amazes me. Somebody could give you guys a free car and you would complain about the color

Personally I probably won't buy it because I dont see a combo with enough of the mechs I want at a price I am willing to pay. But I am not goung to scream about it

Oh yeah. Hey PGI. I think your proposed method of implementing clans may help keep things from being overly OP when they show up. I like the proposed advantages and disads for some of the weps and mechs. Hope it works.

Thanks

[Nunspa]

StandingCow, on 14 December 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Seems to me like he totally missed the point of why people are angry. We don't care that the clans are here... we care about the grab deal so close to the last pack of mechs when basic things that have been promised as "right around the corner" multiple times STILL aren't out.

How about you wait to introduce this until UI 2.0 comes out and is good? Or how about until you have all your CW {Scrap} working and ready to go or all the details panned out?

You fix the stuff from this image, and I will MAYBE start to trust you all again:

You guys continue to make me ashamed of my Legendary and overlord tags... honestly you do.

This......

Edited by Nunspa, 14 December 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[prentice]

I think the weapon balancing needs some work. The Omnimech balancing is a joke. Any mech that doesn't have near-max armor can't be used effectively.

If Omnimechs come out with these restrictions there is no way I'd even consider the clan pack.

[Bilbo]

Dymdr, on 14 December 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Let me do some Sarna.


Kit Fox (Uller)
Engine Starfire 180 XL
Speed 97.2 km/h

Adder (Puma)
Engine Great Father 210 XL
Speed 97.2 km/h

Good luck driving those advanced Clan lights mechwarriors.

They won't be used for light hunting or do much scouting. In the solo matches I've been playing over the last couple months, lights have, often as not, been used as mobile direct fire support anyway and these can pack more punch in that regard.

[Fate 6]

Scratx, on 14 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Irrelevant to this thread and I'm actually kind of getting tired of seeing this. I'm pretty sure somebody already posted this earlier, too. Maybe even.... OH, first page! http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2991066

Point's been made before.

It clearly hasn't been made because we've been trying to tell PGI to do it for an entire year now.

Even the fact that they are asking for feedback on Clans is just disrespectful. We've had countless threads discussing it already. They knew Clans were coming so it's not like they can say "oh, we just started to think about them". The best solution that we have come up with is a BV-like system. Heck, IGP can just let them use an almost identical system to the one in MWT. Let the pilot BV rating be a function of Elo. Done. Clan weapons don't need to change.

Edited by Fate 6, 14 December 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Pawn Couch]

Eh, just add in the clan weapons now and balance them as you go.
No point putting them off without CW in place.

[Aim64C]

Perilthecat, on 14 December 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Another poster pointed out that an advantage of omnimechs is that modules were hot-swappable in the field. Having a repair bay in-match probably wouldn't work, but perhaps restrictions could be placed on IS designs? If you want to customize your Atlas, you are forced to wait several matches until the modifications are complete. Kinda like in Mechwarrior 4 Mercs, where you had to wait a few missions while your damaged mechs were repaired. Just a thought.

The problem here is that we are playing a skeleton of a game:

http://mwomercs.com/...11#entry2970211

There is absolutely no model for persistence in this game. Even the attempt to implement persistence would require radical re-structuring. The maps are far too small for effective role warfare - the objectives would require a whole new host of scripting and support...

The current game experience is that of an alpha setting up the minimum requirements to test that mechs and combat are somewhat functional.

Quote

That said, I'm sure these are already a bear to implement even without the outcry of rigid, poorly adaptable fanboys. Clan tech needs to deviate from canon if it is going to find a place in this game, it's best to just accept that. I sure wouldn't want to be the one having to tackle this grenade of a project, but I will gladly run around in the mechs.

The problem with the clans is that you pretty much have to throw out every 'lore' mechanic of the game to try and balance them. MechWarrior 4 did this. Weapon tonnages were modified - the critical system was vastly overhauled for a slotted hardpoint system. Weapon damage amounts went all over creation - armor values were played with extensively across multiple iterations of the game.

There was still no reason to choose IS tech over clan tech other than for RP purposes (or BV purposes). IS mechs became more competitive under that system - but not the weapons.

The problem is that the very -idea- of the Clans is that they are bat-**** insanely overpowered and are meant to strike fear into the heart of every free-born.

As I have said, before - for Inner Sphere units to encounter the clans and survive (without being taken as bondsmen) was a feat that was met with parades and instant media attention. You were a hero just to ******* survive the encounter.

Even the ComGuards - who had Lostech and even the most powerful of the IS houses did not mess with - were no match for the Clans, and got their ***** handed to them on a silver platter.

The question is:

Do you want MechWarrior?

Or do you want stompy robots that look hauntingly like battlemechs?

Balance the clans?

Have clans que up in a separate group and drop, randomly and unannounced, into an in-progress IS territorial dispute. One star versus 24 IS pilots who have been fighting each other for a few minutes and are in varying states of crapping their pants.

Quote

Speaking of which, I bought the complete package within 2 minutes of seeing it on the front page. And I felt troubled by my actions as I parted with such a large sum of money. It feels like a worse deal than the Phoenix/Sabre packages. In terms of number of mechs and their accoutrements there seems to be a premium applied. It feels like they are taking advantage of the unavoidable reality that clanners will mostly pay whatever it takes no questions asked. I know I did. Luckily I'm not so beyond reason that I would pay $500 for a gold texture map on a mech I'll be able to get for free eventually. There is something unsettling about that kind of money-grab. I get the whole "we're a business" thing, but I can't imagine how many helpless people are going to run themselves broke on shiny pixels. Some people have the disposable income and they won't blink an eye. But there are a ton of people out there who are semi or fully addicted to MW and dangling this kind of thing in front of them is like dangling rocks in front of a crack head. It'll have a cost on people's lives, regardless of the "no one forced them" excuse. Just my opinion.

My question to you is pretty simple:

Why did you buy that package?

What satisfaction do you get out of it?

The idea that you will drive around in a "madcat" while shooting at the same people you've been shooting at, in the same maps you've been walking through, with the same hit-detection issues and 'balance' schemes?

Is there some thrill that you get in your leg when you think about hitting the launch button 10 times a day, 4 times a week, for a month, to get your Madcats "elite?"

I'm just curious as to why it is you've actually decided to commit to purchasing this package when, quite honestly, most of us find ourselves dreaming about the way the game could be rather than being excited about the way the game is.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bilbo, on 14 December 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

They won't be used for...

they won't be used at all. Just like the locusts are. It is a competitive environment and a mech with no speed and no armor is not up to competition.

[Fate 6]

prentice, on 14 December 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

This article inspired no confidence in me. I've spent a lot of money on this game and right now there is no chance I'm going to buy the clan pack.

On the subject of balance: I fully support making clan tech different, not better than IS. However most of what is covered here is TERRIBLE.

Lets look at the LRM 20 first. Based on what you're proposing:
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 180m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 10
Crit(Slots): 5

Clan Tech (MWO):

Heat: 7
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: Soft cap at 180
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 7
Crit(Slots): 4

You're proposing the Clan LRM 20 has 1 more heat in exchange for:
-Dealing damage below 180m
-One less crit
-THREE fewer tons

I know this is a first draft. However your first draft shows the IS LRM20 as completely and totally obsoleted.

Why should I trust PGI to balance a game when their "eyeball" balancing is clearly WAYYYYYY off base?

But on the bright side, they're willing to give the Timberwolf 4 extra tons. I'd almost pay real money for a 79 ton Timberwolf. Almost.

[BlackPhoenix01]

Great job PGI! Keep it up… Don't let the trolls and rage monkeys improperly reflect on the silent majority of the people that love what you have done so far and are looking forward to 'tomorrow' for the stuff being discussed for further release.

[AntharPrime]

I don't like the way PGI intends to "balance" clan tech. So what if the clan tech is better, everyone will have access to it. With new clan armour, engines, heat sinks and weapons we will just be back to a marginally faster paced game than the current IS tech allows and that is the exact same effect that clan tech and the new clan based IS tech has in the tabletop version. There is nothing wrong with this unlike the way PGI is intending to apply clan tech which will give no incentive to use clan tech.

As usual PGI is just fumbling around in the dark.

[Airborne Thunder]

1. There is nothing on the sale page about Custom Skins on the Prime Variants. So do prime variants (the "hero" version) get a Custom Skin and will the have a (P) behind the mech name to tell it apart from a normal version?

2. Are they going to add Missile Doors to the Timber Wolf’s missile racks? I don't like them on the Catapult and if they go changing the Timber wolf that much from concept art that would not be cool. My Founders mechs look nothing that the mechs I paid for now.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 14 December 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[Khan Hallis]

This has done nothing for me but confirm that my flagging....no...failed confidence in PGI is well founded. They demonstrate that they know nothing about what this game is supposed to be about by coming up with even more cockamamie ways of balancing the game.

Here's a clue for you PGI:THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED.

The balancing comes in the inner sphere pilots not playing by clan rules and having the advantage of numbers. Clans put up a trinary of warriors (15 mechs) and the IS puts up a battallion (36). Clan tech out does IS, but the IS numbers outmatch the clans and the fact that we don't play "there is a fair and honorable way to fight" and have a no holds barred mentality on the battlefield is what balances things.


You want to prevent an arms race? Easy....players make a choice from the start: IS or Clan tech base. You can't mix and match them, and you can't have them both on the same mech frame. You want clan Endo steel...either be a clan warrior and have access to it or salvage a Clan mech in battle using it and then you only have the amount it takes to construct that mech. If it gets destroyed you lose it.

In other words you only get salvaged weapons and tech from mechs you kill. If you use it and it gets destroyed in battle and you don't have a replacement you're back to your regular IS tech. Increase the cost of clan tech for clan players (by the way PGI the clans don't use C bills....they use the "Kerensky" as a unit of money/credit).

I'm sure there is more that could be done, but I don't have any faith any longer in your ability to balance things properly or deliver content on time or even better KEEP YOUR PROMISES AS ORIGINALLY STATED AND DELIVER ON THEM.

Unfortunately this means that I am done supporting you monetarily. That sucks because I've always been an ardent BattleTech fan including MechWarrior products. I've bought the last MC pack I will buy, and I won't be buying the Clan packages (despite the fact that I would like to have them), and I won't be buying any more premium time either.

I'm certain that you'll just write that off as "Oh well, another displeased player; keep going there's plenty of other suckers."

But, If you really cared and wanted proper player support, then you would fix all the broken things that the players are discusssing (yes that means stop everything else for now until they are fixed) right now, and deliver on all promises made. Not as you wanted to make them after uncounted renditions and revisions, but as originally stated. Even if you had to take a small loss on it. Deliver on your word. Then, you can have player support like you really wanted and continue developing this new stuff you keep trying to blind us with periodically.

[Riptor]

Have people still not gotten it?

This is not about balancing "clan mechs"

These mechs are not clan exclusive!

Every IS pilot will be able to buy these. Nowhere does it state that you have to join the clans or can only use these mechs if youre part of the clanner faction.

Sorry Clan players.. your exclusive toys arent exclusive no more. Ever ******* with enough MC or cbills will be able to have a timberwolf or Daishie

So any of this zelbriggen nonsense or talk about IS vs Clan is absofuckinguseless.

This is balancing Battle vs omnimechs

Not clan vs IS

Crazy enough these clan mechs have nothing to do with the clans!

[Marcus Tanner]

I would have liked a way of doing this that allowed for "broken" clan tech while offering some disadvantage elsewhere in gameplay. I didn't think of a perfect solution, but then again it's not my paid, professional job to do that. I'm disappointed that after putting years of thought into the problem, the team hasn't come up with anything. Having said that, the canon would have lighter, cheaper mechs simply be less effective than heavier, more expensive ones. That just doesn't work in the context of an MMO of this format, and neither do clan mechs (assuming the conceits of this game style).

With that in mind, I'll try to be as helpful as I can in trying to offer ideas for making this tech balanced with normal IS tech.

MMO FPS games have a number of vectors of weapon balance that don't show up in tabletop, and if you're going to try to stick to tabletop values as best you can (which I think is the way to go) then you'll have to turn the screws on all of them.

1- Recycle time. Nobody should need explanation here.
2- Projectile speed. Another fairly clear concept. Includes missiles.
3- Beam duration for lasers. Already explained nicely in the first post.
4- missile firing pattern. My not-inconsiderable experience with LRMs tells me that you could nerf them *hard* by simply having the missiles fire one at a time, a few milliseconds apart such that they form more of a stream of missiles than a clump. Trust me, it's a lot less effective that way. Streaks would suffer a similar problem, as has been stated by a guy suggesting that Paul's plan for a 2-per-volley streaks are DOA.
5- Missile flight path. Taking a route to the target that makes less sense could go a long way in making missiles less effective.
6- Missile turning angle. Missiles that are worse at turning to follow a target are worse.
7- Damage degradation over distance. As it stands, weapons generally do normal damage out to a given range, and then half damage past that. A laser that did normal damage out to a third of its range and half damage out to the maximum would be a little bit worse, while still technically having the same range and keeping faithful to TT (if you squint at it a bit).
8- Spam-penalty on the heat scale (ghost heat). Making it more punishing to spam clan weapons could do a lot to make the difference.
9- Ammo per ton. you've already crossed the Rubicon on this one, so go ahead and use the balancing tool even when I wish you'd have kept the ammo/ton/armor ratio near-TT for the sake of playable stock variants. Sure, bring down the ammo capacity of stock mechs until they're not just *clearly* bad, but *painfully* bad. It couldn't be much worse for the newbies anyway.

I think it's important to use every available tool to nerf those weapons around the edges, but equally I think it's important to keep as close to the TT numbers as possible. Let's face it, you could use the goodwill you'd get from respecting TT values where you see them and working around it through other numbers.

With other forms of equipment it's a little more difficult. In terms of clan XL engines you could have them generate standing heat, much like the experimental XXL engines in current tabletop. Other solutions include making the equipment more fragile, such that as the engine takes critical damage it starts generating unpleasant amounts of standing heat.

Clan endo-steel structure and ferro-fibrous armor are tricky. In both cases, I think you should mess with the durability of the armor/structure. By this I mean that if IS endo-steel and standard structure have 30HP, then clan endo might have only 27HP. If you're willing to mess with those kinds of numbers, then you have an answer as to how to make ferro-fibrous compete with endo-steel in both IS and clan tech... just give it more HP per "dot" than standard armor. You could make clan ferro offer less of a bonus in exchange for the benefit of taking up fewer crits. This new approach to ferro would effectively incresase the max armor rating of a mech that uses it. Incidentally, this kind of change would add power to mechs on the lower end of tonnage scale, as those are the most likely to have the spare crits for bringing endo+ferro anyway. That gives you an incidental bump in the effectiveness of lights and mediums relative to heavies and assaults while rewarding builds that don't need to fill every available crit with heat sinks.

Clan ECM and active probes could simply lose some of the functionality that you've added to them in exchange for their greater range and/or lower tonnage costs.

Well-implemented clans won't be enough to get me back into the game, but poorly implemented clan tech can keep me out even if the other problems go away.