1978 replies to this topic

[Aim64C]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 14 December 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

not really a fan of the weight reduction for LRM's, why not try bringing the I.S equivilents closer to clan standards?

The Catapult C4 would become quite interesting, lobbing 80 missiles at you per volley.

It -might- actually make LRMs useful - assuming the 18 tons of ammo you have to bring along with it doesn't get lit up by that pesky critical hit.

[Nema Nabojiv]

There is yet another consideration regarding the clan mechs in session based MMO. And its name is META.

Now, if we look closely on clan mechs we'll see that stock configs are made for a tabletop game and don't fit in MWO metagame:

• Most clan mechs have endo and FF by default - meaning a player can't free up some weight.
  
• All clan mechs have TT ammo load - meaing it won't be enough and you will have to add more ammo.
  
• All clan mechs have TT amount of heatsinks - meaning they will be HOT in mwo and you will have to add more heatsinks
  
• Most clan mechs don't have their armor maxed out - meaning you will want to add armor
  
• Clan lights are clearly too slow - meaning you will want to put bigger engine.

And so, the only way for players to make their mechs usable in mwo is to *surprise* throw away some part of firepower. Presumably, the very part which makes them uber-imba-cool.
Don't know why they even bother with restrictions and stuff.

Edited by Dymdr, 14 December 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Hastur Azargo]

People upset about possible changes to omnimechs, then people upset about default omni configs not being competitive;
People upset about nerfs to weapons, then people upset about that weapons aren't being nerfed enough;
People demanding VOIP that exists as an afterthought in oh so many games, and works worse than any standalone alternative;
People demanding balance, then people stating that clan tech isn't even supposed to be balanced.
People upset about the single mentioned possible tonnage change to a weapon, then people demanding mixed tech.

Most concluding that for what they see wrong, PGI is completely out of their minds.
Most posting ultimatums about not giving PGI any money.
All the while almost nobody noticed that swappable weapon parts with custom quirks in addition to custom hardpoints is actually a pretty cool idea.

Just another day on our forums, eh?

Edited by Azargo, 14 December 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[Riptor]

Dymdr, on 14 December 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

There is yet another consideration regarding the clan mechs in session based MMO. And its name is META.

Now, if we look closely on clan mechs we'll see that stock configs are made for a tabletop game and don't fit in MWO metagame.
1. Most clan mechs have endo and FF by default - meaning a player can't free up some weight.
2. All clan mechs have TT ammo load - meaing it won't be enough and you will have to add more ammo.
3. All clan mechs have TT amount of heatsinks - meaning they will be HOT in mwo and you will have to add more heatsinks
4. Most clan mechs don't have their armor maxed out - meaning you will want to add armor
5. Clan lights are clearly too slow - meaning you will want to put bigger engine.

And so, the only way for players to make their mechs usable in mwo is to *surprise* throw away some part of firepower. Presumably, the very part which makes them uber-imba-cool.
Don't know why they even bother with restrictions and stuff.

Even if you throw out firepower you wont be able to change anything else if they go through with it.

All you can basically do is switch the type of firepower you want on your mech around.

[Nathan Foxbane]

These changes look very interesting. The center torso part worries me, but there is some potential there to make the CTs an interesting mechanic.

[Aim64C]

Riptor, on 14 December 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I can buy these mechs RIGHT NOW without having to pledge any allegiance.

I will get these mechs delivered to me no matter if i stay IS or go clan.

There is NOTHING thats going to stop me as an IS pilot to use the mechs i bought with real money to fight for the IS

YOU on the other hand are so delusional to expect them to change the deal after people have allready bought it? That they will come out and say:

"Sorry bro but since you want to stay IS you cant actually use your 240 dollars worth of clan mechs... youll have to join the clans. Whats that? Your Overlord pack? Sorry cant use it anymore once you join the clans"

Grow the hell up and leave your little fantasy RPG world you build up.. its time you clanners wake the hell up. Your beloved clan and omni mechs are nothing exclusive anymore.

You're quite the narrow-minded feller, now aren't you?

If the Match Maker can select your mech by tonnage... why, pray tell, could it not select mechs by 'type' (Clan/IS)?

If the UI can differentiate between a weapon labeled a 'missile' and a weapon labeled a 'ballistic' - .... could it not do the same thing with 'Clan' and 'Inner Sphere' weapons?

The funny thing is that I don't really do the whole "RP" thing. I will adopt the tone and mannerisms of the clans, from time to time, because I find them interesting. Though I believe you've demonstrated your own foolishness in this regard.

I have no issue with Clan tech being exclusive or not. The problem is that you still only perceive a game in which we deploy into "Solaris" arenas.

That's like buying a new car while only thinking about driving it around in the display room.

[SgtMagor]

the missile balancing sounded a little confusing, what i'm understanding even though you said the clan missile launcher has 0 minimum in fact translates to 100 meters cause doing zero damage from 0-100 meters means the same thing afaik!. anyway with the current paradigm Clan mechs or weaons don't seem all that desirable at the moment. just wondering if there really be that much difference between IS and Clan tech, thx for the info peace out!

[Nema Nabojiv]

Riptor, on 14 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Even if you throw out firepower you wont be able to change anything else if they go through with it.

All you can basically do is switch the type of firepower you want on your mech around.

yeah. The point is - there's no need to actually implement them in a way PGI intends to. Reconfiguring them to fit the meta will balance them out pretty good.

[Mead]

Dymdr, on 14 December 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

There is yet another consideration regarding the clan mechs in session based MMO. And its name is META.

Now, if we look closely on clan mechs we'll see that stock configs are made for a tabletop game and don't fit in MWO metagame:

• Most clan mechs have endo and FF by default - meaning a player can't free up some weight.
  
• All clan mechs have TT ammo load - meaing it won't be enough and you will have to add more ammo.
  
• All clan mechs have TT amount of heatsinks - meaning they will be HOT in mwo and you will have to add more heatsinks
  
• Most clan mechs don't have their armor maxed out - meaning you will want to add armor
  
• Clan lights are clearly too slow - meaning you will want to put bigger engine.

And so, the only way for players to make their mechs usable in mwo is to *surprise* throw away some part of firepower. Presumably, the very part which makes them uber-imba-cool.
Don't know why they even bother with restrictions and stuff.

Keep in mind that Clan ES and FF only take 7 slots each

[Riptor]

Aim64C, on 14 December 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

You're quite the narrow-minded feller, now aren't you?

If the Match Maker can select your mech by tonnage... why, pray tell, could it not select mechs by 'type' (Clan/IS)?

If the UI can differentiate between a weapon labeled a 'missile' and a weapon labeled a 'ballistic' - .... could it not do the same thing with 'Clan' and 'Inner Sphere' weapons?

The funny thing is that I don't really do the whole "RP" thing. I will adopt the tone and mannerisms of the clans, from time to time, because I find them interesting. Though I believe you've demonstrated your own foolishness in this regard.

I have no issue with Clan tech being exclusive or not. The problem is that you still only perceive a game in which we deploy into "Solaris" arenas.

That's like buying a new car while only thinking about driving it around in the display room.

Ever heard of "pre mades"?

And think your own model through please. If i pledge my allegiance as a merc to a house like steiner, but decide to drop in a timber wolf i suddenly am fighting for the clans?

What happens when my pals decide to drop in their IS mechs? am i being forced to also choose a IS mech?

Also narrowminded? PGI themselves stated time and time again that they would never limit mechs by factions.. that for your information also includes the clans.

Again.. please point to me where in this whole deal it says that these omni mechs are clan exclusive and can only be used by clan players. Cause they arent.

Unless PGI explicedly states that theres going to be battle mech only and clan mech only ques its not going to happen.

We will allready be split up by factions according to them.. yet you and others are asking to even further split the ques based on clan omnis or IS battlemechs?

Heck with the current playerbase as is its not even sure if they can split the ques by faction.

Edited by Riptor, 14 December 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Colonel Tequila]

• Minimum range stays at 180m but LRMs can be fired. The damage ramps from 0 to 1.1 in an exponential curve. i.e. Damage is minimal in the [0]-[100]m range and increases to full damage between [101] and [180]m ranges.
  
  If you as a development house concede that you will not follow cannon - Then make the weapon systems less restrictive and more viable for being used.
  
  All LRMs CLAN or IS, should follow this damage logic. Similar to how PPCs used to be, and to be honest still should have a minimum range damage falloff.

[Mr 144]

Interesting....

I like the Omni design concepts, but Armor allocation and FF/Endo localizaion needs to be allowed. With a modular body part system, too many complications will exist between variants having different armor values and reaching the neccessary amount of FF/Endo crit alocations.

IE:
Variant A right arm houses 4 crit spaces of FF
Variant B right arm houses zero crit spaces of FF
Problems ensue without the current floating crit system and the proposed component swapability.

Non alocated armor would get really wierd if 2 variants have different armor values. This might be fun when balancing side torso selections in the mechbay, but ultimately I don't think it's right for gameplay....not in a game where skill and meta dramatically effects armor allocation.

SSRM6s....
Meh...This amounts to basically a hardpoint saving system where, for a single missile slot, the equivalent of 3x IS SSRM2s forced to chain fire are taken. Load up 4 Clan missile points with SSRM6s and you have a chain firing 12xSSRM2...double that of any IS maximum, AND with plenty of other hardpoints to still use. I think this is the biggest issue with the balance approach.

I do like the locked engines and chassis upgrades (FF/Endo), but I think this is probablly also a good time to across-the-board give all FF (both Clan and IS) a small damage reduction value for flavor as opposed to the "lesser" of the two it is now. This helps IS mechs, and blances out non-customizale Clan mechs forced to have it over Endo.

Finally.....MRMs/ATMs ????? Please?

Edited by Mr 144, 14 December 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[TELEFORCE]

Please don't mess with the critical slot size or weights of any of the Clan weapons. Doing so will mess up canon configurations of omnimechs. For an example, the Mad Dog Prime with dual 7-ton LRM-20s will put the chassis 4 tons overweight.

I see that this issue is understood in Paul's post, but there are plenty of tweaks that can be made to the soft stats that can make up for this. For example, the recycle time, heat output, or even the way the missiles are launched. The same goes with any other Clan weapons sytem.

EDIT: Hell, 7 ton LRM-20s would even break the Timber Wolf Prime. I'd be fine with the Clan LRMs generating high heat and having a lower minimum range than IS LRMs, like 90 or 100 meters, or scale the damage vs. minimum range like how IS PPCs were treated for awhile.

Edited by TELEFORCE, 14 December 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[aelfkins]

The fact that the Clan version of LRM-20s have no minimum range is a huge problem. What you effectively now have is a Streak SRM-20 available to you if we cut minimum range to 0.

LRM-20 has a potential damage of 22, an SSRM-20 would have a potential damage of 50. Not really an accurate example.
Just make them only lock onto targets at 180m, and leave them dumb at 1-179m, with the standard 1.1 dmg per missile hit. Similar to an LBX-20, but with a wackier spread.

I like the weapon pod idea, but the stagnant armor and engine are going to be a huge handicap.

[Drunk Canuck]

There is one thing that concerns me about Clan Mech's and Clan Weapons and I would like to make a suggestion about a possible way of balancing all this Clan tech and preventing cheese builds to start.

My first question is how do you go about balancing Omni hard points? My initial line of thinking here is that you treat them in a similar fashion to the way they were in MechWarrior 4. An Omni hardpoint while modular, was restricted in size, they had a number of critical slots similar to the way it is in MWO though with a different sizing system. Take the Daishi for instance, in MW4 it had two sets of Omni hard points in each arm, each was a two slot meaning you could at most, fight PPC's or Light Gauss since they were two slot sized weapons, a standard Gauss Rifle, Bombast Laser, Artillery Beacon, MRM-40 and Thunderbolt Missile were all larger and therefor could only fit in 3 or 4 slot hard points on a Mech. If you do something similar where say you have those pairs of Omni hard points on each arm of a Daishi, you make it so they have specific critical slot sizes. Treat Omni hard points like independent pods so to speak, but also have a limit on how many weapons can be fit into each pod. Like the slot system in MW4, you could put two Medium Lasers or a single Large Laser in each pod because the pod size was restricted to a specific number of critical slots. Since we don't have that kind of design, something has to be restricted.

Secondly, how do you prevent boating and early balance of Clan weapons? Well, you can release the Clan Mech packages and have them locked until all of the Mech's have been released, or you can only make them modifiable with Inner Sphere technology and use the Loyalty Rewards system as a method of getting players to earn Clan weapons and technology. I'd say make them locked if the rewards system isn't out but tie all the technology into the rewards system, get players to use the designed builds and have them appreciate what makes them great on their own before giving us the ability to customize them. I think that ultimately forces players to up their skills in order to be good with locked builds.

[Y2kHippy]

The way they are looking at Mech customization is very strange and there are much easier ways of doing things that flow with the current system and the BattleTech lore.

Example
Current system has three different type of location slots. Energy, Ballistic and Missile.
All they needed to do is implement a new Omni slot.
A DeathKnell has two energy slots on each arm. As Clan version could have one energy slot in each arm and one Omni slot in each arm also. This would allow for the possibility of ballistics or even missiles in each arm *** well as the fixed energy. MW4 had something similar with its customization. Clan Mechs had certain slots that had the Omni capability.

[Anais Opal]

The 'secret bonus module' is what scares me the most.

Balance and build issues aside, if that module does ANYTHING to make a paid Clan 'Mech better than the cBill version there will be pitch forks and lynch mobs in the thousands. That and if the paid 'Mechs offer advantageous 'alternate' configurations like we have with hero's.

Word of warning PGI, you are treading thin ice, very, very thin ice indeed.

[RJF Falconer]

Quote

This balance post is an abomination.

Lasers reference - More ghost heat.

SSRM - "make everything work like chain fired SSRM2s", aka LAZY MODE

LRMs - VIOLATE TT STATS MISERABLY (breaking stock mechs in the entire process).

Paul should be fired for those lazy ideas OUTRIGHT.

Fully agreed

Fail after fail PGI.

[Jack Gallows]

Mead, on 14 December 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Keep in mind that Clan ES and FF only take 7 slots each

You hope. lol

[Anais Opal]

I have to do it...no i can't...yes i can...oh s0d it



When the fail is so bad, even Jesus has to facepalm.