1978 replies to this topic

[TheSteelRhino]

Mawai, on 15 December 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

There is a fundamental flaw in the design reasoning ...

1) Clan tech is supposed to be better. If it isn't better then how can it be clan tech?
2) The balance suggestions appear to be a panacea.
- unless you nerf clan tech into the ground then either the clan version or the IS version of any weapons will be strictly better.
- e.g. The plan to nerf Clan LRM20 ... it still leaves a Clan LRM20 as strictly better than an IS LRM20.

That is the design conundrum. There is no way to create a balance of clan technology using the design philosophy that you have outlined since either
a ) The clan version will be strictly better than the IS version so why use any other
b ) The clan version is functionally equivalent to the IS version so why bother
c ) The clan version is worse than the IS version

It is almost impossible to obtain case b ) unless the items have identical stats and different art work. The design plans call for enhanced performance of clan items with increased heat ... does this take into account the reduced tonnage and crit slots allowing clan tech to be equipped with additional heat sinks?

So ... balancing weapons isn't really possible ... what can they be planning to do??

EXCEPT ...

Read this part carefully :
----------
Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

---------------

This states that you will NOT be able to customize clan mechs by switching engines, heat sinks, armor, etc.

So - the weapon balance may not be as much of an issue because you will NOT be able to customize mechs to support the loadouts ... there will be greater weapon flexibility but heat sinks and engines will be controlled by the chassis. You will NOT be able to customize them. You will NOT be able to max out armor. You may be limited in the number of heat sinks you can add. You will NOT be able to change the speed of the chassis ... so you can expect the clan mechs to be slow compared to their MWO IS counterparts.

Essentially, the design of clan mechs will be fundamentally different from the IS ones we have now. IS mechs can use IS weapons which are less effective ... but the mechs can be fully customized. Clan mechs can use clan weapons that are somewhat more effective, the loadouts are more flexible and weapon pods can be swapped between mechs ... BUT the base characteristics of every chassis are FIXED. Armor, base heat sinks and engine (both size and type) can NOT be changed.

The plan might work to keep IS mechs competitive with clan mechs ... but I can see a lot of unhappy clan aficionados ... and anyone buying the clan pack of mechs should read the design plan carefully since they may not be buying what they think they are buying.

So i think the clan Er large laser Does have an advantage linger range for higher heat and lighter right? Not the excesive amount as becore though.

Now...lets talk about the restrictions on omni mech customization. The clans are very honor bound (zellbrigen) and greatly against waste according to lore. They typically underbid a fight in order to gain more honor. They waste nothing. Warriors changing out engines and armour utterly at will would be considered wasteful. That is the problem with being a clanner. There are supposed to be rules for behavior that don't translate well because many players just want the most OP build they can get. However the rivalries and rules for behavior that really make the BT universe fun. Obviously the modular nature of Omnis is a solid advantage, but it is offset by restrictions on structural type changes.

Seems reasonable to me. And I imagine at some point I'll pick up a Thor and Ryoken at the very least.

[Nehkrosis]

They did mention that they wanted to stay away from Zell, as it heavily restricts gameplay, and thus, fun.

I dont necessarily agree, but hey, thems the breaks.

[DISTURBANCE IN MY PANTS]

Please PGI stick to 12 v 8 in IS vs Clan faction wars, let the Clan Weapons like they´ve should be. Higher rearm and repair cost of cbills for clan tech. They are invading so they must be superior. Without it, this game will be in my eyes meanigless. Sorry if my english is bad for this.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Silent, on 15 December 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Ban anyone that has a Founders and a Phoenix Badge and is up in arms right now.

Seriously.

[Greyboots]

This is not anywhere near enough information to be providing what I'd consider valid feedback. There's too many "what if's" involved to be of all that much use. So, to make this very clear: I do not even pretend to be giving feedback on issues that "will be true". I have been overly critical as a result of the limited information on offer, not because I am upset or worried in any way. At this point I feel that all I can do is point out where I see the dangers because I simply lack enough information to be voicing any specific or concrete concerns.

Quote

Balancing – Weapon System Upgrades
Things start to get a little trickier when dealing with weapon systems that are outright increased in their standard operation. For this example, let’s look at the Streak SRM/6. Yes, we all knew they were coming, and yes, the potential is deadly but let’s take a step back and see what can happen with current mechanics.

e.g. 2 – Streak SRMs
Inner Sphere Tech:

• Always hit as long as the target is locked.
  
• Fires 2 missiles dealing 2.5 damage each (total of 5 damage)

Clan Tech:

• Always hit as long as the target is locked.
  
• Fires 2, 4 or 6 missiles dealing 2.5 damage each (total of 5, 10, 15 damage respectively)

As you can see, this is a much bigger conundrum than changing some numbers like the previous section. This is where we may step out of the comfort zone that some players might not like to make sure we don’t bring in heavily overpowered missile launchers.



The following will probably be applied to this weapon:

• Allow only 2 projectiles to leave the launcher at any given time. SSRM-4 will fire 2 volleys of 2 missiles. SRM-6 will fire 3 volleys of 2 missiles. This will stagger the incoming missiles allowing AMS to take down more if the targeted Mech has AMS.
  
• Increase the cooldown period of refire on the larger launchers and allow the above staggered shots to happen during this time.

So again, the flavor/feel of the weapon is still there, it’s just going to require better trigger timing and the hope that AMS will not deter your volleys too much assuming that the enemy has AMS to begin with. An additional side effect is that people will be more inclined to carry AMS on their BattleMechs and at the same time, these bigger launchers will need more ammunition to counter the AMS effect.

This doesn't change the fact that it's possible to be putting 3 SSRM2's in a single Missile hardpoint. This has large implications in light and medium mechs.

It's like being able to put an SSRM6 in the center torso of a Jenner for the same weight as 2 SSRM2's without having to buy the D variant for the 2 Missile hardpoints.

I see this as undermining the ability to adequately control loadouts through the existing hardpoint system.

Clan tech is lighter and presumably this will mean additional hardpoints so the mechs can use up their tonnage without overly compromising range. This opens doorways towards exploitative builds, especially when combined with the ability to jockey Hardpoints between .

It's not just weapons that are the issue.

Quote

e.g. 1 – ER Large Laser
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 12
Damage: 8
Range: 570m
Tons: 5
Crit(Slots): 2

Clan Tech:
Heat: 12
Damage: 10
Range: 750m
Tons: 4
Crit(Slots): 1

It is very easy to see how the Clan version of the ER Large Laser is significantly more advantageous than the Inner Sphere equivalent. The Clan ER Large Laser does 2 more damage, has 180m more range, weighs 1 ton less and takes up half the amount of space while maintaining the same amount of heat generation.

There are mechanics already in MWO that help us normalize the impact of this weapon without drastically changing the flavor and uniqueness of the Clan version.

As an example, what would will probably be applied to this weapon is the following:

• Reduce the max range but still give it a slight edge over IS tech. Change from 750m to 660m for a 90m increase over IS tech.
  
• Increase the beam duration of the laser to spread damage over more time.
  
• Make the Heat Scale slightly higher than the IS version.

Ok, good as far as it goes. But it's still easy to see that the Clan ERLL will still be significantly more advantageous than the IS. It's not about weapon stats either. At 1 critical slot, I can now put 2 ERLL in an arm at a cost of 2 criticals instead of 4 and fit in an extra heat sink. And that's presuming you increase Clan DHS to 3 slots from 2.


Clan mechs are STILL going to be far more heat efficient.

What about LRMs? Ok, the weapon might give only slightly better DPS but the mech will be more heat efficient AND be able to carry larger amounts of ammunition as a result. Again, it;s not about the weapons, it's about how mechs fit together.

Clan mechs will be FAR more powerful simply because they are not forced to compromise to the same extent as IS mechs. Even minor space savings will mean that FAR more setups will be able to equip Endo, Ferro, AMS, Beagle and Artemis.

And I'm FAR more interested in Autocannons because they are currently ruling the game and have taken particular note that they aren't discussed in the first wave. A Clan AC5 Ultra takes only 3 slots and is 2 tons lighter than the IS version. That makes 65 ton 4 x AC5U mechs a very likely possibility with the swapping of hardpoints. High DPS, massive cockpit shake stunlocking me or my target, and a BOATLOAD of extra ammo to power it with enough DHS to make it run as cold as ice.

Quote

For example, let’s say that you purchase the imaginary OmniMech, the Irate Tapir. You decide to purchase the B configuration because its default loadout fits with your play style. However, it doesn’t have any missile hardpoints and you really want to be able to fit a Narc Beacon to help out your teammates with their LRMs. What you can do is swap out the B left arm, which has two ballistic hardpoints, for the left arm from the C configuration, which has a missile and an energy hardpoint.

So ANY mech you want can be a 2 x AC, 2 x PPC pinpoint monster. Or fit a ridiculous number of SSRMs. Or shuffle your hardpoints to fit in even more DHS. And so on.

Quote

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

This tells me you are thinking of the issues I'm raising. However, it doesn't tell me how things like Endo or Ferro will work when swapping parts to change your hardpoints and so on or the extent to which you intend to effect loadouts through them.


In short: I can currently still see an arms race but again I'm aware that we have only the barest of information on offer. Until we know how mechs are going to go together and how you are applying the limitations we can't really be sure of much of anything.

Regards,

Grey.

Edited by Greyboots, 15 December 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Aidan]

Paul's comments on how Clan technology will be introduced into MWO is a very rational and well thought out approach to this historic balancing problem for Battletech implemented as a real time video game simulation.

Nice initial work Paul !

[Stormwolf]

Gotta love how people are complaining about how armor and engines being locked whereas the the current IS customization is a far cry from what it should have really been.

Nehkrosis, on 15 December 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

They did mention that they wanted to stay away from Zell, as it heavily restricts gameplay, and thus, fun.

I dont necessarily agree, but hey, thems the breaks.

What is the point of playing the Clans in 3050 without zell?
Doing away with zell is more a post-Tukayyid thing, but I'm probably expecting too much from game that sells $500 mechs.

Not that it matters what we are posting here, anything said in this thread will just be dismissed as the ramblings of the silent minority anyway.

[3rdworld]

Stormwolf, on 15 December 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Not that it matters what we are posting here, anything said in this thread will just be dismissed as the ramblings of the silent minority anyway.

That applies to the entire forums.

Feedback for pretty much everything they have done lately has been overly negative. But they stay the course, while the game stagnates.

Edited by 3rdworld, 15 December 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Vanguard319]

Dirkdaring, on 15 December 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

How are you going to address the #1 signature item of clantech, the targeting computer?

I'd figure it would be like the targeting computer in mechwarrior 3, where you had a bounding box/pipper that would show the approximate area you had to lead your target for a given weapon to optimally hit, to keep it from being OP, you could design it so that you had to manually select the hit location you want to shoot instead of the computer determining which area is the most damaged.

[Apnu]

PGI, please, please, please put clans in seperate queues until tou sort out the balance. Limit them to star sizes so the matches are 10v12 if IS vs Clan. Or 10v10 if Clan vs Clan. But keep the Clans in their own queue so the have the opportunity to develope their own community and the IS players have time to work out the loss of pilots. Easily half (maybe more) of player groups will suffer losses due to players defectiong to the Clans.

Also switch the matchmaker to table top battle value or skew clan tonnage value so the IS has a tonnage advantage. In TT some balance was found by giving the IS a numbers and tonnage advantage.

But, again, the most important thing is to keep Clans and IS in seperated queues. Besides what I listed above, seperate queues, it buys PGI time to sort out weapon and mech balance.

Edited by Apnu, 15 December 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Thomas G Wolf]

Niyack, on 14 December 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Jump Jets should be apart of the modular design side. However, I can't seem to find an example of this outside of Adian Pryde's Mad Cat where he wanted jump jets cause he was use to them from normally piloting a Thor.

#
Hmm you forgot about the Timber Wolf S which has 5 jump jets plus a shitload of srm6s and a LPL it is my fav Madcat on the TT game and installed pure horror in my enemies.

[Apnu]

Dirkdaring, on 15 December 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

How are you going to address the #1 signature item of clantech, the targeting computer?

We will never see a targeting computer. If random chance existed for hitting mechs, we'd see targeting computers. But since to-hit is a player skill, targeting computers are unnrcessary.

[Devillin]

After 30 odd pages, and I'm still laughing at how all these folks are reacting to the proposal for the Clans. Especially since most of these ideas (especially the stuff about the Omnimechs) have been discussed to death over in the Clan sections for months.
Most recently:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
http://mwomercs.com/...s/page__st__200
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
Among others.

And guess what, it looks like the devs are following a lot of the suggestions that have been posted to the forums. So it's not like they aren't listening to the fans, they just aren't listening to the folks who are personally offended.

Personally, I really don't have a problem with any of the changes they are proposing other than changing the weights and crits of weapons. Heck, I even kind of support the Streak Missile Machine Gun thing because it will make it easier to hit those really fast light mechs. Although, they probably should drop the damage for all SRMS down to 2.0 instead of 2.5 damage.

But a gold mech? Really? What kind of {Scrap} is that? I could understand if you got all of the other omnimechs along with your golden mech. But $500 for just one? Sheesh, for $500 you better give me the special paint jobbed mech, all the other omnimechs, a physical poster, and maybe a MW:DA miniature model of my chosen mech. The omnimech packages are pretty cool. Pricey, until you realize that it is $10 per mech, versus roughly $20 now. For those of us on a budget, give us the option to buy a single mech chassis for $30.

[Markoxford]

Wow - there is just no pleasing some people is there ?

Great post about clan balancing that CLEARLY states that this is a fluid situation that will require lots of tuning and input from the players and yet still the same old {Scrap} from the same people.

Really like the fixing of the engine type and rating, armour type and other things in the center torso - big advantage for the inner sphere mechs to know weakness of the enemy.

By the way - may get a gold madcat just to parade up and down river city or something. Feel free to watch as I expend my disposable income to support a game I love to play, (a new FTP game will be along shortly for the people who don't/won't pay for any product on the net).

Edited by Markoxford, 15 December 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

You know what they cud do with the Targeting Comp?

You target a mech, and aswell as tell us what it is, how hurt it is and where, it could also tell us where ammo is...

[Carnivoris]

You know... I really thought that they'd take a risk and keep the Clan Mechs overpowered, but only allow 6 to drop against 12 IS mechs. I know that'd throw the MM to hell and, really, the MM is already garbage, but the overpowered nature of Clan Mechs is what brought me to MWO in the first place. Now you're going to nerf them for balance. That makes me not give a **** about them. Why care about Clan Mechs unless they're as powerful as they should be and have the disadvantages that the clans imposed upon themselves in the name of Zellbrigen?

I understand that this is a video game and you have to balance it on its own merits. I know you can't always stick to the TT lore. However, I also know that many hardcore fans will be very disappointed. Like it or not, those hardcore fans are the people you should be catering to more. You make them love it, they'll make their friends love it. Jesus Christ, what's better than free promotion from hardcore fans that LOVE what you're doing?

Also, the Omnimech design seems cheap. Omnis are meant to be completely customizable. It's completely possible that Clanners not mentioned in the lore may have used completely custom variants, right? Why just stick to what's defined in the lore? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lore hound and I wish MWO adhered more closely, but the narrow definition of what an Omnimech is capable of doing here just doesn't feel right. It feels like the easy way out.

The ERLL changes sound good. I like that one. That seems balanced, yet powerful. SSRMs? Stupid. I've already got a shadowhawk with what may as well be an SSRM6. ALL my missiles fire at once. Sure, it's powerful... but it ain't overpowered. I guarantee you that. I also understand that if I were able to fit 3 SSRM6 on the same mech I've got 3 SSRM2, that would be OP as ****. You could fix that by making crit slot changes. Make an SSRM6 take up 6 crit slots. That makes sense. Use a crit slot per missile. That would restrict the SSRM6 to only a few mechs and they'd have to make some changes to the rest of their loadout to make it work.

And, seriously, I just dropped $80 on these Phoenix mechs now you're asking me several hundred for a bunch of Clan Mechs? I didn't want to spend that much on the Overlord package. I'm DAMN well not spending the money on Clan tech early access, ESPECIALLY after reading this post. All this time that I've been playing (over a year now) and you've been saying clan mechs are coming and I was looking forward to it. However, since UI 2.0 isn't even out, there are still weapon balance issues in the current IS tech, matchmaker woes, and I'm sure a bunch of other stuff I'm leaving out, I think you're jumping the gun on asking for more money.

I understand that's how you pay your developers and art team. They gotta eat. I know that. I just question your timing. Furthermore, I think there should be a beta testground for clan tech available to players. Perhaps players that bought the Overlord package or players that buy into the clan tech or something... but trying to balance clan tech on internal playtests isn't going to work. The sample size just isn't big enough. I know you've got the PTR server now, and that's great. Use it.

[McBond]

Besides introduce game features before clans...

I think you should not nerf the clan mechs or weapons - they should be superior to IS ones. There should be some other measure to make sure the IS stuff doesn't fall into obsolescence.

Ideas off the top of my head:

- Game mode where clan mechs (or mechs with clan tech) count for double tonnage.
- Game mode where one team is "IS" and the other team is "CLAN", giving the IS team some significant advantages in something like tonnage, or an easily defensible position - it is an invasion after all.

There should also be the standard game mode where IS stuff just gets its *** kicked like its supposed to.

[Blood Rose]

Alwrath, on 15 December 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

^^^ Totally this. Such a simple solution. Want to be in an op clan mech? np. youll be outnumbered, but np.

Definetly. Implement this, and suddenly all becomes balanced. We dont have these stupidly unbalanced matches where a team with 8 lights and 4 mediums faces heavys and assaults. Cans are balanced, IS is balanced, we can drop ghost heat and all is better.

Please listen PGI-we want this game to work and we are trying to help you implement it succesfully.

[Ace Kaller]

It's actually unfortunate that this came out at roughly the same time as the Clan package sale opening up. But I don't actually blame PGI for that part, the pre-Christmas release date of the package sale stinks of IGP forcing a date on PGI based on marketing concerns.

For PGI/Paul's part, I'm actually pleasantly surprised an pleased with this info regarding Clan tech. I was very concerned with how they were going to implement it, and while I have no illusions that the rollout is going to be perfect, I think their premise and core philosophy here are sound and well thought out.

[DocBach]

High caliber Clan Ultra autocannons should be balanced with a recoil mechanic - the heavier the caliber the larger the deviation between the point of impact between both rounds to negate the instakill factor of some of the builds that will be possible like the mentioned 5 UAC10 Daishi.