1978 replies to this topic

[Lucky Moniker]

While I'm happy to see at least some sort of plan, this is not nearly enough information to sell a product with, especially when you are asking as much as you are. I'm not botching that its too expensive, I'm saying that for that amount I need to know exactly what I'm getting.
CSSRM's are **** in that format. Its beyond lazy and makes them useless, I know you don't want to invalidate IS tech, but invalidating clan tech is not the way to do it... I don't see what is so OP about a larger streak launcher, you pay for the more tubes with more weight and heat, isn't that enough?
and adding more ghost heat is just stupid. The system is borked on IS, it'll only be that much worse with clan tech.
I do like the Omni hardpoint swap though, that idea has been circulating for a long time now though so you cant claim credit for that one, but I do like it

[Nema Nabojiv]

Niko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

So, we'll get "omni-mechs" that are basically, in some of the very important aspects of customization, less "omni" than regular mechs.
Brilliant idea PGI, you just put the concept behind a word "facepalm" on a new level.

[Volkodav]

What you can not change the distribution of armor - it is not the best solution.

[GrizzLee]

How to properly implement the clans: You stated the way to join the Wolf's Dragoons will be to play for each faction and gather loyalty points for each government. This led me to think, how does one become a clan warrior. Answer: Trial of position. Get a core group of the expert players to "try out". Those wanting to join the clan faction have to go through a trial. The more players they defeat the higher their rank for that wave. To continue to play clan you have to go through the trial each wave. If you do not defeat at least one opponent you are relegated to your inner sphere unit that wave. The best pilots end up being clan members who bid to take planets in the meta game. a full force would be a 10 on 12 match, but allow them to bid away a mech or two for bonus awards. players who take down opponents without "kill assist" get bonuses for keeping in character.

It is not impossible to make the game close to cannon, but it would require a lot of thought and planning. I sincerely hope we don't find clan mechs in every inner sphere faction in 6 months, it would be a shame. I would much rather see the best volunteer players playing as clans under challenging restrictions and odds. That would give the expert players a challenge and keep it balanced. What about the less talented players who can't make the grade? Either get better or keep playing as Inner Sphere. If they were clan they wouldn't even get a mech, much less a second shot. My advice is for you to get some players who truly love the game and cannon of this universe to help you out. Stop making the game you want and start making the game the players want and you can still turn this around.

[Zeus X]

Volkodav, on 14 December 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

What you can not change the distribution of armor - it is not the best solution.

That is one of the restriction of "Omni-Mech".

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Disadvantages

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.^[26] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However, the mounting points for them in the arms are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons, and PPCs, so the lower-arm and hand must be removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.^[7]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology or old Star League designs.^[27]
The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.^[25]



With config swapping, we could see the first assault mech with dual AC20's.

Edited by DCM Zeus, 14 December 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

nah i'd rather FOLLOW THE LORE.

unnerf all IS tech
-Remove Ghost heat
-Unnerf the gauss
-edit the pulse lasers
-follow the lore for all the weapons
------------------------------------------------
Clan tech
-Lrms can work under 180m
-all weapons stay the same damage and no damage buffs
-follow the lore for all weapons
-allow a mech to equip only a certain amount of that weapon

this way clan tech will be slightly overpowered
but at the same time it will face penalties due to its nature in heat
and due to this IS tech will be able to withstand clan tech

and only allow clan tech to be obtained through being in a clan or
beating a clanner and taking his toys
the mechs cannot be store bought
you can only get mechs through gaining honor points (a similar system to the market except honor points)
then you can use these to go to a quarter master or something and get that mech you want.

Edited by Cementblade, 14 December 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor

No way I am buying that pack.IS mechs are more omni than those crapcans.

[Fenris]

Thx a lot for the update. Sounds good. Some thoughts from me:

Plus: I love the ideas and the general line of thought. Clan weapons should buff good players and make them even stronger :-). Like micro-intense units in StarCraft that give the player the opportunity to shine. I had hoped for changes like that. The mech customization sound VERY clan-like to me. Whether it will work depends on a lot of attention to details on your side.

Minus : Not being able to move endo is a bad idea. Easy as that. That can cripple certain mechs and no one can know in advance which effect/results will occur for this has never been done before.

Meta: If this philosophy works as intended the whine will be incredible. The skill-gap between good and bad players will increase significantly and so will the kills/wins. I don't care about that but you should.

All in all I am very happy with your ideas! Furthermore I am pleasantly surprised that you gave the lore that much thought.

Disclaimer: I did buy founders and Overlord but you won't get any money for pre-orders until you show some progress with CW. Furthermore I do enjoy your game but I do not enjoy self-righteous comments like "but we did deliver everything you paid for" despite loyalty point and CW and UI 2.0 .... That man acts unprofessional/childish.

[Scratx]

Side note, I think a lot of people are missing that what Omnis can do in customization is basically move hardpoints around...

You can't do that with IS mechs.

[Runebasher]

For the ER Large Laser, Streak and LRM20 example..... everyone will be using the Clan version, even if they are just slightly better!

[Milocinia]

I'm sorry but this did not make clan tech any clearer for me and if anything has confused me even further.

More smoke and mirrors.

[Aszot]

Many things sure need to be fixed, but this is not the right thread to discuss it. As for omni ideas, i fear people will just choose parts with most hardpoints. To solve this, and other problem, lack of real variability on some chasis, like timber wolf, which mostly has energy arms/ missle rack torsos, there should be a upper limit to hardpoints per chasis. It would enable to choose not only hardpoint type, but also lead to compromise between hardpoints amount.

[Zeus X]

Remove ghost heat, make REAL double heat Sinks and everything should work out fine.

Yes at first the IS gets effin ROFLSTOMPED, but as the IS gets clan tech, the tables turn.

[Ozric]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about, this was always the way Clan tech was going to be in MWO, the only way it ever could be considering the game and the business model. I remember writing several posts on the matter myself in the early days of happy forums. And in the end, it doesn't matter so much that IS weapons stay viable to elder players so long as the IS chassis do.

That being said, I think the current model goes a little too far in favor of the IS. Omni mechs should feel at least as customizable as IS mechs, and certainly not less so. Forcing stock armor really is the best/worst example of this, but I also like to slap JJ's on inappropriate clan chassis a lot of the time, and I would hope to be able to do so in MWO..

[Nutlink]

DCM Zeus, on 14 December 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

With config swapping, we could see the first assault mech with dual AC20's.

Ultra AC20s. At only 12 tons a piece. It's going to be great having IS ballistics take a back seat to much lower weight/crit Clan weaponry. Unless they don't allow Clan weaponry on IS mechs.

They should have stuck with stock mechs only, like MPBT 3025. A lot of what I read put me off from buying the Clan package that I was on the fence about already.

Edited by BOTA49, 14 December 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[BladeXXL]

omg... the most of you rage guys don't know what you are talking about... -.-
go and spend the $ you wan't pay for clans for some fresh shi** instead and chill! :-)

[Zeus X]

For the MASSIVE LAZY who still don't know anything about Omni mechs.

I will have to white horse this for PGI, as I see this is the best route for Moneywarrior Online.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

OmniMech

[color=#7D7D7D]
[/color]


An OmniMech is a (sub-)type of BattleMech that does not feature a fixed weapon configuration, but instead has the ability to replace or change its weaponry with modular OmniMech-compatible Omni-pods. Omni-pods can be a wide range of weapon systems and even a limited selection of structural components. Therefore, an OmniMech's loadout is only limited by the amount of pod space it possesses (both in mass and bulk), and reconfiguration time.

Contents
[hide]

• 1 History
  
• 2 Advantages
  
• 3 Disadvantages
  
• 4 See Also
  
• 5 References
  
• 6 Bibliography

[edit]History

Based on the modular replacement system of the Mercury BattleMech, OmniMech technology was developed by a team of Clan Coyote scientists led by Scientist Richard (Remer) with the assistance of Clan Sea Fox. In 2854, their collaboration resulted in Clan Coyote's Coyotl, the first true OmniMech. The Coyotl's OmniMech technology provided far more flexibility than the famous ease of replacement of the Mercury's semi-modular Hessen IX small lasers^[1]. Clan Coyote and Sea Fox had evolved the technology to allow complete reconfiguration of the weapon systems and certain structural components of an OmniMech within hours.^[2][3][4][5]
Prototype OmniMech design was hampered by several major problems in stability, targeting, logistics, and construction. The OmniMech gyro had to adapt to large structural changes in the center of mass of the 'Mech. Without specialized software and extreme increases to physical tolerance, the OmniMech would not be as stable as a conventional BattleMech. Changing loadouts quickly also required the OmniMech battle computer to accept "snap and go" software for its targeting and tracking system. Combat effectiveness was still paramount, so the frame of the OmniMech could not waste space and mass for the physical interfaces of interchangeable equipment. Only standardized, specially constructed OmniMech components could be utilized on the OmniMech's frame. Richard (Remer) and his team worked for six full years to solve most these complications before prototype OmniMechs began combat trials, and another 1.5 years before the Coyotl entered full service.^[3][6][5] Even with deployment of the Coyotl, modular OmniTechnology required years of further refinement to ease compatibility between XL fusion engines and Endo-steel internal structure on an OmniMech chassis, and researchers never improved (or never attempted to improve) arm Omni-pod attachment points in order to make large-bore weapon systems compatible with certain arm actuators.^[2][7]
The OmniMech's adaptability resulted in revolutionary changes on the battlefield. An OmniMech was more tactically and strategically flexible than any BattleMech before, allowing Clan Coyote (and to a lesser extent, the demurring Sea Foxes) to choose the capabilities of a machine depending upon the requirements of a particular mission. The major limitation to this flexibility was the mass of the chassis, which constrained the speed, armor and pod space of the Coyotl. This was quickly addressed with the introduction of at least three more first-generation OmniMechs, each a different drop weight.^[2][3][4][5]
The first-generation OmniMechs were largely overlooked until 2859, when Clan Coyote equipped nearly all of its Alpha Galaxy with OmniMechs. Due greatly to their OmniMechs, Clan Coyote became dominant on the Clan battlefield and quickly expanded within the Kerensky Cluster. Yearly trials were established by every Clan to acquire the technology, but by the time Clan Jade Falcon won the prized technology in 2863, Clan Coyote's OmniMechs had been nearly unstoppable on the battlefields of the Clan Homeworlds for almost a decade.^[2][4][5] By the end of the next calender year, six more Clans possessed the technology.^[4] The final Clan to adopt OmniMech technology was Clan Ghost Bear, who took the technology from Clan Hell's Horses in 2873.^[8]
An unintended consequence of their advanced gyros, OmniMechs could also be used extensively as infantry transports. In 2867, Clan Wolf began development of Battle Armored Infantry, based on underwater environmental suits used by Clan Goliath Scorpion in the seas of Dagda and Star League Power Armor (Light). The classic Elemental battle armor, a blend of speed, anti-Mech capability, protection, and firepower, prevailed. The Elemental debuted in 2868 in combat against Clan Nova Cat, and soundly won. Clan Wolf's battle armor concept revolutionized offensive ground infantry combat in 29th Century Clan warfare, and accelerated the propagation of the new "Elemental" warrior phenotype developed by Clan Hell's Horses.^{[2][9][10][11][12][13]}However, Elementals have limited mobility; they are only capable of 90-meter leaps and are nearly one ton in mass.^[12] Without Combat Vehicles dedicated to moving soldiers or longer-ranged battle armor weaponry, Elementals could only be used effectively on land as fixed defenders against experienced adversaries. Rather than rely entirely on combat vehicles to transport infantry, Clan Hell's Horses OmniMech designers realized the specialized gyros of OmniMechs could allow the mass of a star of Elementals to mount and dismount under fire. Their first OmniMech, the Nova, mounted handholds, power outlets, and communication ports for battle armor. The Nova's mechanized infantry modifications were very successful and universally copied.^{[14][15][16][17][18]} Within six years of the initial Wolf-Nova Cat trial and just four years after the debut of the Nova, the concept of OmniMechs as infantry transports was taken to its logical conclusion, when Clan Ghost Bear began production of the Cloud Cobra-prototype Fire Moth infantry support OmniMech.^[19][20]
The OmniMech's ease of repair, rearmament, and weapons loadout modification allowed Clan MechWarriors to quickly return to the battlefield, and kept the Clans moving at an amazing pace during the Clans' invasion of the Inner Sphere.^[21] But the Clans' obvious technological advantage resulted in a rapid response from Inner Sphere weapons manufacturers. While not able to replicate the advanced construction materials of the invaders, the Inner Sphere was able of reverse engineer OmniMech technology from captured or crippled machines. Thanks to the pristine examples gained from the Battle of Wolcott and several galaxies worth of salvage in the aftermath of the OPERATION DRAGONSLAYER, the Draconis Combine led Inner Sphere OmniMech development. Just five months after DRAGONSLAYER, as the Com Guards fought the Clans on Tukayyid, the Draconis Combine introduced the first Inner Sphere OmniMech, theRaptor, in May 3052. ^[22] By 3058 the Combine had eight separate OmniMechs in production with licensed versions being built in the Lyran Alliance and the Free Worlds League. By 3067 everySuccessor State had their own OmniMechs in production.^[23][24]
[edit]Advantages

The OmniMech flexibility has many advantages. The modular construction allows MechWarriors to customize their machine's weapon loadout to suit their own skills and preference, and suit specific tactical or environmental needs as required. Where a BattleMech of comparable weight is often designed and built for a specific role, an OmniMech can serve as a direct-fire combatant one day, and a missile boat the next.^[21] A single 'Mech capable of performing the role of four frees up significant logistical space and mass during a campaign, assuming the OmniMech is repairable after each mission.^[24]
Though not solely created for modular weapon loadouts, the OmniMech design greatly **** repair and construction. If a weapon pod is damaged, it can be quickly detached and replaced with another while the original is repaired. If certain weapons or ammunition are unavailable, alternates can be easily substituted. Once their modular weaponry and equipment is removed, the empty bays provide better access to repair the chassis. Damaged components such as arms and legs can be easily repaired in half the time it takes for common BattleMechs, and often with less experienced technicians able perform such tasks.^[21] OmniMech technology also greatly **** salvage. Even if an enemy OmniMech is virtually destroyed, an intact OmniPod can be detached and reattached to a functional Omni just as quickly and easily as if it was factory fresh, satisfying the Clans' overriding desire to avoid waste.
OmniTechnology has also been used to bridge the technological gap between the Clans and the Inner Sphere. While Inner Sphere and Clan components are generally mutually incompatible, the Inner Sphere began reverse-engineering Clan OmniTechnology after the Battle of Luthien, and adapted their technology to the Omni-pod interface. Inner Sphere and Clan Omnis can mount either Inner Sphere, Clan Omni-pods, or both interchangeably.^[25]
[edit]Disadvantages

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.^[26] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However, the mounting points for them in the arms are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons, and PPCs, so the lower-arm and hand must be removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.^[7]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology or old Star League designs.^[27]
The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.^[25]

[Aim64C]

Scratx, on 14 December 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Side note, I think a lot of people are missing that what Omnis can do in customization is basically move hardpoints around...

You can't do that with IS mechs.

It's going to be more frustrating than you realize.

Think you're going to put two CGauss on the DireWolf?

All configurations will likely have just enough DHS that you cannot move or remove to prevent that from happening.

They are going to have to resort to such gimmicks in order to prevent the entire game from becoming dominated by Clan mechs. Though if they allow mix-tech, much of the game will gravitate toward the IS mechs, at this point.

[drinniol]

Whoa, lots of posters are having real anger management problems. In games like this it is always, ALWAYS, better to introduce underpowered weapons then balance accordingly. Look at arty and airstrikes, all the grognards complained it was going to be the death of MWO and yet here we are, where they are fairly balanced for the job intended.

[Deacon412]

I was honestly expecting this to happen alot differently! i was expecting some sort of cut scene...some lore story even....i thought this would be out when there would be AI and some sort of horde mode...battling against the Clans and aquiring their tech with friends...idk? it just feels rushed but i have more faith you guys can deliver...i just need more dialouge from the devs...much more...all of the promised features need to be out soon.