1978 replies to this topic

[Ryoken]

DevilCrayon, on 15 December 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

What are Badges?
What are Titles?
What are Warhorns?
What are Bonus Modules?
What are Unique Bonus Modules?

There are only Unique Bonus Modules!

[Fates Whimsy]

First thank you PGI for giving us at least an idea of direction for the clans.

Anyways why not have clan mechs count as an increased weight in drops say 50 or 100% of extra since presumably we will have the actual drop weight limits built in by then. I don't think double is correct since the implication is that you want to do other steps to balance weapons as well through ghost heat, actual heat value changes and even requiring an increase in skill to fully benefit from the increases with some stuff 50% or maybe even lower depending on how things test out.

If you will stick to the plan of allowing inner sphere mechs use clan weapons why not have the weight changes and maybe even crit changes kick in as say compatibility modules to the weapons in order for them to be installed without the normal wepon pod connections in clan mechs and to allow them to properly interface with the engines providing them power and targeting systems used by the inner sphere. Sure its still a break from the TT stats but this way you don't break default builds and it adds additional options for balancing since it provides a way to slightly balance the advantages of slapping a bunch of clan tech into any mech.

So tying in those ideas; for example with the cLRM 20 keep it as 5 tons for clan mechs (which already are penalized by being heavier then the listed weight for drop balancing) so that you don't break stock builds but then if you say go to use them in a catapult you tack on say the 2 tons and an additional crit slot as an additional balancing factor since the pult wouldn't be hit with the same drop penalties as a clan mech.

Only thing I beg is please don't fix engine/armor allocations I mean sure lock them into xl engines, ff armor and endo steel structure since to my memory all clan mechs at least in the 3050 run their XL engines which doesn't have as large of a downside since you need both side torso's destroyed, and a lot of them have both ff and endo steel. For the handful with FF rather then Endo steel sure that's not as optimal but that optimization seems like a small price to pay for the other benefits. Its just not allowing us to drop weapons for increase in engine size and increased armor or even striping some armor for ammo seems a shame. Mind you you can still utilize your engine caps which i mean wouldn't need to be all that much higher then the default since the clan mechs for the most part had good speeds across the board for their size anyways.

anyways that's my 2 cents.

Edited by Fates Whimsy, 15 December 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Aim64C]

Noth, on 15 December 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Balance will be forever on going. If games waited for balance before working on new content, that content would never come out.

Except there are literally unplayable mechs in MWO.

What people often fail to remember is that "balance" is not what people want. Only a scant few are going to get upset with whatever numbers are going on under the hood. What people really want is an engaging and enjoyable experience - not a powerless and frustrating one.

LRMs have -long- been in this category of completely and totally useless.

The meta swing toward direct fire weapons with very high DPS have made LRMs with four and five second flight times and very low "DPS" considerably uncompetitive. Sure - if everyone on a team comes standard with an LRM 20 and several tons of ammo - they can be effective... but as an individual player or even working within a lance - the tonnage spent on LRMs of any nature (even with Artemis and TAG) is better spent on more direct-fire weapons and the ammo/heatsinks to support them.

Of course - we can't have effective LRMs because PGI still has yet to actually do something about the horrible idea of just making a tight knot of missiles that slam into 'mechs of varying physical sizes and hitboxes. Making them effective in terms of damage (and actually registering a hit) would absolutely obliterate many Assault mechs.

Then there are mechs like the locust.

It's cute and all - and I enjoy trying to play with it from time to time... but, really, you don't play that mech other than for 'teh lulz'

Sure - it's faster than some of the other light mechs out there (or can be) - but there's no advantage to it being low-cost. Its design was really supposed to lend it toward being an infantry support 'mech - taking out tracked armor, hovercraft, and entrenched infantry positions.

It was not really supposed to be used against other 'mechs as a primary role.

Which is largely why our game is not 'balanced' - entire classes of mechs and weaponry are not playable due to poor design decisions and/or a lack of target variety. Battlefields are small and consist only of other battlemechs or laser-squares to stand in.

This has been a huge oversight on the part of many MechWarrior games when it comes to multiplayer modes. The combat has been focused on player-mech versus player-mech with very little else going on.

If you are tasked with defending a convoy - light mechs suddenly have a whole different role in the overall victory/loss. They no longer have to worry about shooting big mechs - only worry about -not- getting shot by big mechs. Their goal is the convoy.

I've discussed this at-length before. I really should condense it all down into a singular thread that addresses "all that is wrong" - but it basically boils down to the idea that many MechWarrior games have been too focused on "mech" and less focused on the universe from which the 'mechs come (Battletech).

Solaris mechs differed considerably from mechs that were loved in the field for a reason.

[Ryoken]

DocBach, on 15 December 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Totally like the no indirect fire LRM idea for Clanners. They don't like sharing kills and all, so things like supporting fires and sharing targeting information would be dishonorable.

As I see the benefit of this idea, I also see the problem that there are no honor rules in this game. And even fluff wise it is reported that the Clans also abandoned the honor rules the more battles they fought against the Inner Sphere who disobeyed honor rules.

Yet as it may help balancing Clan LRM I agree that over the centuries the Clans evolved seperated under the artificial selection parameters of the honor rules, the need of implementing indirect fire ability to LRM might have vanished. So it would be plausible that Clan LRM have lost the ability of indirect fire, which would also explain the lesser weight.

[Fates Whimsy]

Aim64C, on 15 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Which is largely why our game is not 'balanced' - entire classes of mechs and weaponry are not playable due to poor design decisions and/or a lack of target variety. Battlefields are small and consist only of other battlemechs or laser-squares to stand in.

This has been a huge oversight on the part of many MechWarrior games when it comes to multiplayer modes. The combat has been focused on player-mech versus player-mech with very little else going on.

If you are tasked with defending a convoy - light mechs suddenly have a whole different role in the overall victory/loss. They no longer have to worry about shooting big mechs - only worry about -not- getting shot by big mechs. Their goal is the convoy.

I've discussed this at-length before. I really should condense it all down into a singular thread that addresses "all that is wrong" - but it basically boils down to the idea that many MechWarrior games have been too focused on "mech" and less focused on the universe from which the 'mechs come (Battletech).

Solaris mechs differed considerably from mechs that were loved in the field for a reason.

I know I'm off topic but a Convoy attack/defense game mode with one team tasked with attack and one defense would be awesome. You could do several set paths for the convoy that is randomly selected and only the defenders know it before the match, this way the enemy actually needs to scout out the different paths before bring in their attack elements. You'd have to make which side you're on known before mech selection (which would work well with the drop bay feature) since what you drop in would be pretty heavily influenced by this and like you said would help give reasons for some mechs to get a little more use then they currently do. Heck much like the turrets that were discussed being added when we get attack/defend game mode for defenders you could give the attackers mine fields they could set up on the pregame map as obstacles as well.

[DocBach]

Ryoken, on 15 December 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Yet as it may help balancing Clan LRM I agree that over the centuries the Clans evolved seperated under the artificial selection parameters of the honor rules, the need of implementing indirect fire ability to LRM might have vanished. So it would be plausible that Clan LRM have lost the ability of indirect fire, which would also explain the lesser weight.

seems reasonable enough of an explanation to me.

[Mead]

arghmace, on 15 December 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Just issue Battle Value for all mechs. If for instance an Atlas has a battle value of 100, a Daishi could have 200. So the match maker would regard a Daishi the equivalent of 2 Atlai. You could also use this to balance out mechs in general. For instance if you look at 80-tonners, the Victor is obviously better and more used than the Awesome. So set the Victor's Battle Value to 85 and the Awesome's BV to 75. Then just look at the statistics: which mechs are used a lot and which aren't and adjust the battle values until everything is used as much.

There is already a well-established formula for calculating BV. The VTR-9B is 1165, while the AWS-8Q is 1358 (I can't remember if I patched Heavy Metal to use BV or BV2). Basically it's a sum of the components and weapons with multipliers for pilot skill (elo) and numerical advantage. PGI has access to decades of field-testing and balancing to construct a working system for MWO.


For comparison, the Timberwolf Prime BV is 2252.

Edited by Mead, 15 December 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[AvatarofWhat]

I'm not impressed. I'm glad we are getting info(after the clan pack announcement? why not before?) but honestly much of it seems pretty bad to me. Upping lrm weight? break stock mechs much? Just because you admit it might happen does not make it ok. Streak srms being chain fired? longer recycle? seems really lazy to me, your just making larger streaks almost exactly like streak-2s... this not only breaks cannon, but defies logic. I've got a six-tube missile launcher but some undefined universal law states that it can only fire two at a time..., honestly I understand you have to make it different, but you dont have to make it dumb (i'd like to use another word) different. The laser difference seems more on the right track. Im sorry but 1 out of 3 doesnt cut it when you are already taking pre-orders for the mechs.

You havent even figured out what your doing with these mechs, and admit that any of this information might change at a moments notice but your selling the damn things? I don't think I need to mention that any developer worth their salt would balance existing features, add features long-ago promised and months(or sometimes a year and half) overdue before attempting to tackle a potentially game-breaking feature like the clans.

I havent played much in the last two months. The poor decision to shove the clans out the door before you even know how CW is going to work and make a blatant cash-grab made sure i wont be spending any money on this game in the next 7 months. I might play occasionally with my unit to fill 12-mans but you disgust me PGI. I regretted my decision to buy phoenix once you revealed that not a single line of code has been done on CW. You wont fool me again. No more empty promises, you show me exactly what I'm getting first and implement it into the game. Then I might give you guys another penny.

[Noth]

Mead, on 15 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

There is already a well-established formula for calculating BV. The VTR-9B is 1165, while the AWS-8Q is 1358 (I can't remember if I patched Heavy Metal to use BV or BV2). Basically it's a sum of the components and weapons with multipliers for pilot skill (elo) and numerical advantage. PGI has access to decades of field-testing and balancing to construct a working system for MWO.


For comparison, the Timberwolf Prime BV is 2252.

And the creators of both BV versions say that they failed at proper balancing.

[Nick Makiaveli]

I've figured it out.

I had forgotten that I am "on an island" and that, as a TT/lore fan, I am "not the target demographic".

So we will have Clan mechs and weaponry being used alongside IS mechs with no regard to lore etc. We will fight over planets for bonuses, and this game will basically become the FPS version of MMO raiding. Fight to get gear to fight more to get more gear to fight more.

Not saying I won't play, but eventually I will sell off the non-Phoenix versions and use those mechbays for more C-bill mechs and when I am tired of that, wander off somewhere else. Unless they come out with Golden Ammo like WoT, then I am on the phone demanding a ******* refund.




*edit** Grammerz and sich

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 15 December 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Wolfways]

Clan lasers too hot to use...LRM's (IS or Clan) still useless...

I suppose i can underestimate how much PGI can **** up their pretend BT game. That's pretty much it for me. I've been waiting to see how much Clan mechs were going to be screwed in comparison to the screwed up IS mechs, so i guess i'm done.

[Ryoken]

Aim64C, on 15 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Except there are literally unplayable mechs in MWO.

What people often fail to remember is that "balance" is not what people want. Only a scant few are going to get upset with whatever numbers are going on under the hood. What people really want is an engaging and enjoyable experience - not a powerless and frustrating one.

@unplayable mechs: Rolewarefare - as you correctly stated we currently have only mech VS mech combat and sure the locust is not built for that. Assault mechs and heavy mechs do this job far better!

But when you just take a look at the conquest game mode exspecially on bigger maps you will see that suddenly the more mobile light and medium class mechs play a more important role. Only they can reliable cap/decap all those far of capture points and provide enemy location to the team. Heavy/Assault mechs on the other side are way to slow to reach those capture points in time. They would have to split up to save all these capture points. But then again a single isolated assault/heavy mech can become easy pray for a light/medium lance on transit from one capture point to the other or willingly hunting for isolated mechs!

@balance:
The numbers under the hood are the game! Only a balanced game is an enjoyable one!

If you do PvP noone likes to be the cannonfodder!

PPS: In PvE on the other hand shooting dozens of AI tanks with some friends sounds like great fun!

Edited by Ryoken, 15 December 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[keith]

i though about this last night. y do we even have more then just a prime variant if we can interchange parts for omnis? i only see this as a cash grab by PGI. considering most omnis cost in the 30 mill range. in the current way to master a chassis it will cost u around 120 mill c bills, that a huge time investment made by a f2p person. then to buy a omni with MC will not be cheap, no micro. PGI seems to be truly doing the whole clan thing wrong. epic fail.

[Mead]

Noth, on 15 December 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

And the creators of both BV versions say that they failed at proper balancing.

I've used it for 16 years or so and it's more sane than anything that's been floated here. There will never be a perfect system but on the whole it works just fine.

Also, if you have a source for that claim, the search engines are being flaky. I'd love to read a post-mortem on BV. But I'm also pretty sure that it has not in fact been discredited as being useless.

[SirLANsalot]

Ok...Lets start with the LRM (possible) changes.

I like most of what was said about them, and for the most part, figured thats how you (PGI) would go about it. HOWEVER the tonnage savings of Clan tech MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST STAY! Especially if you are not going to allow Eng or Armor adjustments or even removals of JJs. The REASON Clan tech is so much lighter is because of that, if you so much as increase it by a SINGLE ton, it throws EVERYTHING out of the window.

The Laser changes look good, I was suggesting in one of my posts to keep there heat the same as IS heat. Unless you are intending clan DHS to be truly 2.0 then the heat increase would be acceptable.



Mech Customization.


This will be a big big big issue if you do not allow people to change there mech around as THEY see fit. Right now its fun and fine with the IS mechs to swap and change everything. Clan Omni mechs (the lights especially) will need to have there eng rating allowed to be changed. Now I am not saying allow people to put STD eng instead of clan XL in, but I am saying allow people to change the rating, but not what, the eng is. This keeps the sprit of the restrictions that clan omni has, but still gives people the CHOICES they want.

Armor Values should also be allowed to be changed, as mainly the stock load-outs and stock numbers for armor and mechs DO NOT WORK IN MWO. Stock ANYTHING doesn't work in this game, as STOCK is made for a completely different game. However do not allow people to change what armor type it is, aka they must keep the Ferro, and we all know that adding ferro to a mech now gets some very very strange armor and tonnage values.






So overall, its OK, I wont say good, but I will say OK. If you (PGI) go with the above mentioned suggestions/ideas, then you will sell a lot more of the clan packages, and maybe even a few goldies.

[Noth]

Mead, on 15 December 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

I've used it for 16 years or so and it's more sane than anything that's been floated here. There will never be a perfect system but on the whole it works just fine.

Also, if you have a source for that claim, the search engines are being flaky. I'd love to read a post-mortem on BV. But I'm also pretty sure that it has not in fact been discredited as being useless.

BV1 was replaced by BV2.0 because BV1 was not good enough. BV3 was being worked on and put on hold to give the new errata a chance under BV2.0 (essentially a last chance for BV2.0

[Mead]

Noth, on 15 December 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

BV1 was replaced by BV2.0 because BV1 was not good enough. BV3 was being worked on and put on hold to give the new errata a chance under BV2.0 (essentially a last chance for BV2.0

None of which indicates "failure" to the point of declining to consider it for use here. If fixes and patches constitute "failure" then no game has ever been worth creating in the first place.

[Rasako]

Jack Gallows, on 14 December 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Weapon balancing for Clan Tech is laughable honestly with what is slated to happen. How you're handling Omni isn't horrible but we'll see how that pans out.

Overall though, haven't seriously played in over a year and haven't logged in in months and pretty much probably won't if things keep going this way. No real faith.

[Image removed as it has already been invoked]

That last spot should be "Changes to absurd Hero mech and Clan Packages prices"

haven't logged in in months and haven't played in over a year, yet still here raging on the forums like a child? wonder just how many of the forumbase falls into that category

[Asmudius Heng]

BV may not be perfect but its a hell of a lot better than nothing.

This is a complex game with so many variables and without real role warfare and simulated logistics you cannot balance the in game aspect as well.

[Noth]

Mead, on 15 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

None of which indicates "failure" to the point of declining to consider it for use here. If fixes and patches constitute "failure" then no game has ever been worth creating in the first place.

It doesn't balance it in table top, it is not even going to come close to balancing anything in a real time game that doesn't use dice rolls to determine hits nor even use the same stats as the table top.