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Clan Technology - A Design Perspective - Feedback


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#1561 Victor Morson

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:55 PM

Clan tech is going to be massively OP, yeah.

The problem is they take a weapon like the LRM/20 and go "Oh it's much better than the IS version, let's nerf it." So they nerf it to being only SERIOUSLY better than the IS weapon instead of HOLY **** better, and think that this solves anything?

Such a mess.

i.e. taking a 5 ton gun with no minimum range (LRM/20) and making it a 7 ton gun with SOME minimum range still makes it far better than a 10 ton gun with a huge minimum range no matter how you slice it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 December 2013 - 12:56 PM.


#1562 Shadowsword8

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:44 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 29 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Clan tech is going to be massively OP, yeah.

The problem is they take a weapon like the LRM/20 and go "Oh it's much better than the IS version, let's nerf it." So they nerf it to being only SERIOUSLY better than the IS weapon instead of HOLY **** better, and think that this solves anything?

Such a mess.

i.e. taking a 5 ton gun with no minimum range (LRM/20) and making it a 7 ton gun with SOME minimum range still makes it far better than a 10 ton gun with a huge minimum range no matter how you slice it.


You're focussing on numbers that have been given solely as examples of the kind of nerfs they wanted to make. Bad idea.


The one and only thing I find myself agreeing with PGI, these days, is not trying to balance clan tech by using inferior numbers like 8 clans vs 12 IS. I know it's the most popular veiw, and the one that's the most compatible to lore, but most MWO players are soloers. Most soloers will want to use the mech that has the most bang for it's weight, which mean clan tech. And the matchmaker would have issues if it had 12 claners and 8 IS trying to get into a match.


My way of balancing it would have been to give increased support for IS mechs, to make up for their inferior tech (cheaper and to some extend repetable air/artillery strikes, choppers/tanks as "pets" following your mech, and so on...).

#1563 NRP

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:00 PM

If PGI makes an "attack/defend" game mode where the attackers are Clan mechs and the defenders are IS mechs, the [8] Clan mechs versus [12] IS mechs idea can work just fine. All you need to do is make the match consist of two rounds, one round you're an attacker in a Clan mech and the next round you're a defender in an IS mech. That way, no one is compelled to run only Clan gear. Instead, they'll run the best Clan gear and the best IS gear, as it should be. Problem solved.

#1564 CptGrizz

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:41 PM

I think it is kind of laughable that you wouldn't at least try to have the clan LRMs stay cannon with a zero minimum range

and the only reason i bring this up is that it gives you a way to test what you would need to do for MRMs.
the plus being they don't have target locks like LRMs but they do share a 0 minimum range.

my other thought is how are you going to implement the thunder and swarm LRMs?
Cause instead of letting the LBX 10 autocannon shoot cluster and slug projectiles and to provide some sort of toggle

between such ammo it will cause more problems further down the road for you. (i mean the ATM launchers if this game lasts that long)

I am also disappointed in the fact you decide to jump to clan mechs when you have about half of the mechs for the inner-sphere out.

Which makes me think you have wrote this thing off and going to milk it for cash until it dry's up.

#1565 Wolfways

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostCptGrizz, on 29 December 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I am also disappointed in the fact you decide to jump to clan mechs when you have about half of the mechs for the inner-sphere out.

I'm disappointed that i've been stuck in IS mechs this long ^_^

#1566 FupDup

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 29 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Clan tech is going to be massively OP, yeah.

The problem is they take a weapon like the LRM/20 and go "Oh it's much better than the IS version, let's nerf it." So they nerf it to being only SERIOUSLY better than the IS weapon instead of HOLY **** better, and think that this solves anything?

Such a mess.

i.e. taking a 5 ton gun with no minimum range (LRM/20) and making it a 7 ton gun with SOME minimum range still makes it far better than a 10 ton gun with a huge minimum range no matter how you slice it.

In the case of Clan Lurms, I just wish that Clan Lurms would have indirect fire disabled for them (indirect fire is "dishonorable" by Clanner standards anyways), have a bit more heat than IS Lurms, slower RoF, and maybe tweak the spread a bit. IS Lurms would/should also get heat reductions, RoF increase (keep up the bombardment), and all Lurms need ammo increases (this helps Clanners too, but since they have lightweight tech it helps the IS more).


In general, we also have to remember that PGI is nerfing Omnimech chassis hard with their decision to enforce TT restrictions. Literally every single Omni coming out is going to have sub-par or worse armor distribution and/or engine size. Basically, the Clans get superior weapons but vastly inferior chassis. Will the weapons be good enough to compensate for the crappy Omni mechanics? We'll have to wait and see.

Edited by FupDup, 29 December 2013 - 06:47 PM.


#1567 Victor Morson

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostShadowsword8, on 29 December 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

You're focussing on numbers that have been given solely as examples of the kind of nerfs they wanted to make. Bad idea.


That's not a bad idea. Yeah those aren't the final numbers, but it shows an underlying problem in logic: Nerfing a gun partly is not enough to bring it into line with a far inferior gun, period. No amount of changing those numbers will change this. Bottom line if they made it a 9 ton gun, it'd still be better than a 10 ton gun, and thus an arms race.

View PostShadowsword8, on 29 December 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

The one and only thing I find myself agreeing with PGI, these days, is not trying to balance clan tech by using inferior numbers like 8 clans vs 12 IS. I know it's the most popular veiw, and the one that's the most compatible to lore, but most MWO players are soloers. Most soloers will want to use the mech that has the most bang for it's weight, which mean clan tech. And the matchmaker would have issues if it had 12 claners and 8 IS trying to get into a match.


Matchmaker could easily sometimes match all-IS or all-Clan, population depending. There's plenty of justification for IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan drops. So this is a moot point.

The other thing that would work is a BVish system that would make them available to anyone, but cost a lot more to field.

#1568 Frost Lord

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:21 PM

View PostShadowsword8, on 29 December 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:


You're focussing on numbers that have been given solely as examples of the kind of nerfs they wanted to make. Bad idea.


The one and only thing I find myself agreeing with PGI, these days, is not trying to balance clan tech by using inferior numbers like 8 clans vs 12 IS. I know it's the most popular veiw, and the one that's the most compatible to lore, but most MWO players are soloers. Most soloers will want to use the mech that has the most bang for it's weight, which mean clan tech. And the matchmaker would have issues if it had 12 claners and 8 IS trying to get into a match.


My way of balancing it would have been to give increased support for IS mechs, to make up for their inferior tech (cheaper and to some extend repetable air/artillery strikes, choppers/tanks as "pets" following your mech, and so on...).

but it would still be the same if it was 12 v 12 the IS would still be down 4 players
what if they made it so if you are soloing you have a side preference but you also had a mech selected for the other side that would then be dropped if you needed to make up the numbers. you could also make it so you can have clan V clan and IS V IS I mean the clans fight for rights and IS would still have there falling outs.

#1569 Frost Lord

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostCptGrizz, on 29 December 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I think it is kind of laughable that you wouldn't at least try to have the clan LRMs stay cannon with a zero minimum range

and the only reason i bring this up is that it gives you a way to test what you would need to do for MRMs.
the plus being they don't have target locks like LRMs but they do share a 0 minimum range.

my other thought is how are you going to implement the thunder and swarm LRMs?
Cause instead of letting the LBX 10 autocannon shoot cluster and slug projectiles and to provide some sort of toggle

between such ammo it will cause more problems further down the road for you. (i mean the ATM launchers if this game lasts that long)

I am also disappointed in the fact you decide to jump to clan mechs when you have about half of the mechs for the inner-sphere out.

Which makes me think you have wrote this thing off and going to milk it for cash until it dry's up.

One thing they could do is make it so all missiles in general have larger splash radios (but away from the target so we dont go back to how lrms were to good because of there added splash damage) that way IS and cleaners would do a bit more damage with LRMs if the target was clumped with others, but cleaners would need to restrain from using them at point blank or risk taking damage them selves.
the SRMs could fire all there shots but have a longer reload time which would let faster mechs brake lock.

Edited by Frost Lord, 29 December 2013 - 10:44 PM.


#1570 Taemien

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:52 PM

View PostNRP, on 29 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

If PGI makes an "attack/defend" game mode where the attackers are Clan mechs and the defenders are IS mechs, the [8] Clan mechs versus [12] IS mechs idea can work just fine. All you need to do is make the match consist of two rounds, one round you're an attacker in a Clan mech and the next round you're a defender in an IS mech. That way, no one is compelled to run only Clan gear. Instead, they'll run the best Clan gear and the best IS gear, as it should be. Problem solved.


How does that work for someone who doesn't intend on getting any clan mechs?

#1571 Shrike ski

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:30 AM

No matter how PGI "fixes" clan tech there are going to be people that are unhappy with it, the unfortunate thing is if they mess it up too bad then they are going to lose customers, personally I do agree with fixed armor values, engines, endo, ferro fiber, and other fixed location items (curious on how they are going to work the warhawk/masakari with it's standard with all variants targeting computer tho (wonder if they will even include it, and if they do how it will work)) it is cannon for the clans to work that way, I don't agree with the proposed "hardpoints" restrictions, kinda kills the whole Omni mech thing (tho it does make sense from a profit motive perspective), saw some comments about new clan mechs beyond the basic 17 Omni's well aside from the naga and a few other (as in 3-4) others you should not see any other clan mechs for 5 years (3055 update) and most of those will be second line machines anyway (non Omni mechs with clan tech) and I don't think you will see the naga until they actually include the arrow IV system (you know the thing the tag laser is actually for), something that PGI might want to consider is taking all the weapons back down to their original ranges ie AC20, medium laser, and SRMs would all have a range of 270 meters that would help "fix" a lot of the problems with boated mechs, also have the heat scale do some of the other things it is supposed to as well such as slow down base movement. oh well I know this will be ignored same as everyone elses, but just had to state my 2 cents worth.

#1572 Russhuster

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:32 AM

to think NRP s line further
defending a planet against clans should be a quite lucrative task on the other side
clans dont have a real use for money there honour counts more.

so the clan attack is for the honour ( Clan adequate for cbills lets call it honour points HP wich can be used to get clan supplies and weapons)

IS defend mission is for the honour too but a smart sphere merc knows honour is good cbills are better
so if one choses to defend twice it gives more money these double defenders are important to keep the 10 vs 12 constellation otherwise there would be a lack of attackers some day

so 2 options in such a clan is scebnario should be chosen,..

a, attack / defed ( the ususl choice)
b, defend defend ( the necessary and rewarding option )

R

#1573 Russhuster

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:06 AM

to shrike ski

the way clan mechs are delivered here they are already no omni mechs anymore just second or even third line machines and i very much agree thjere with you in returning to the original speed, range and damage descriptions, back to the roots isnt the worst option there for balance

R

#1574 Vermaxx

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:16 AM

Omnimechs that cannot modify even "floating critical slots" like IS mechs are already inferior.

Omnimechs that cannot DRASTICALLY swap out their weapons on a whim, are completely worthless as compared to IS mechs. The only thing they become at that point is a model and a build you like. in other words, they become mech ****. We already have mech ****, which is cheaper and you have probably XP mastered. Clan mechs will be the newest status symbol, like Overlord Phoenix and Gold Founder.

The way things are shaping out is not comforting. PGI is missing the point on Clan tech. It isn't SUPPOSED to be balanced, it is supposed to be far better, but drastically more expensive, hotter, and harder to get (unless you are IN A CLAN). Clans are also supposed to run with the smallest effective force possible, "bidding" for the right to battle rather than just committing overwhelming numbers to guarantee victory.

Clan play is, unfortunately, balanced by fluff, and a valuing system PGI has not bothered to replicate. They're saying they can't implement the fluff - then they built a bad engine and did not plan ahead for Clan players intentionally being outnumbered. They also put off the most important game feature, Community Warfare, which would have allowed them to force people to sign up for a Clan for 'early, easy access' to Clan tech. They also need to stop this matching system largely based on weight classes and "skill," and swap to a Battle Value matching system that pairs people based on mech power.

Clan mechs are so expensive, you can often field two or more IS mechs against them in tabletop. At that rate they can easily balance drastically better tech by making it hard to get without being a Clanner, and charging an MC entrance fee to BE a Clanner. The balance would be Clan players earning 'money' based around appropriate Clan behavior (which the engine clearly cannot handle or enforce), and stacking the numbers in favor of IS teams.

In short, Clan tech is just going to become the new flavor of the month in a game with no back end. They're the new thing to grind toward. So all I'm going to do is upgrade my stravag Inner Sphere mechs with Clan endo, engines, heatsinks, and medium lasers, and F2P to victory.

#1575 Wolfways

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:44 AM

View PostVermaxx, on 30 December 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

...and charging an MC entrance fee to BE a Clanner.

Oh yeah, give them even more bad ideas ;)

#1576 Malleus011

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostWolfways, on 30 December 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Oh yeah, give them even more bad ideas ;)


Fortunately, they don't listen.

#1577 NRP

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostTaemien, on 29 December 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

How does that work for someone who doesn't intend on getting any clan mechs?

I envision this as a separate "Clan Invasion" game mode. If you don't have Clan mechs, you simply don't play this game mode. Either that, or they fill your role with a "Trial" Clan mech.

Edited by NRP, 30 December 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#1578 Taemien

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:17 AM

View PostNRP, on 30 December 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I envision this as a separate "Clan Invasion" game mode. If you don't have Clan mechs, you simply don't play this game mode. Either that, or they fill your role with a "Trial" Clan mech.


Well that will never happen.

#1579 NRP

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:15 AM

Why not?

#1580 Cornmiser

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:50 AM

I personally believe that the way MechWarrior 4 balanced Clan tech would a good example to follow.

While Clan tech is to be superior to IS tech in terms of weight and space, it would be counterbalanced by heat build-up and recycle time. Take the IS ER Large Laser and compare it to the Clan version.

While the IS would do less damage in one shot, the Clan would take longer to reload as well as generate more heat. Then test fire them over a 10 second interval, in which due to the lower heat and reload time of the IS version, it can be kept firing longer and more often, offsetting the initial lower damage. This way, over that 10 second interval, both lasers do approximately the same DPS.

Take this idea and apply it to all clan tech, higher heat and recycle time compared to the IS counterpart. This would be justified in both game terms and fluff terms, as Clans performed short trials as opposed to running battles, where higher burt potential was more important than sustained DPS.

Or, to go another way, change the mechanics of each weapon. Give the lasers a longer burn time, around the area of 1.25-1.33 seconds. Have pulse lasers fire off more "pulses" per use than the IS, instead of 5 pulses, up it to 7-8 pulses per shot.

Change the Clan LRMs from a long-range support weapons, to a long range, direct barrage weapon. While the IS fire at around a 45 degree angle, give the clan version a 20-25 degree firing arc, drastically reducing the fire-support capabilities and making it more direct fire, this would also be justified in fluff, as support roles would be "dishonorable".

Not much can be done about the Clan LBX line, but an interesting idea can be considred for the UAC line. Since Clan UACs are much better and do not jam as much, change their mechanic a bit. While the IS can be "double tapped" with a risk to jam, the Clan does not. While the Clan version would not jam, it could not double fire either, but would have a lower reload than the IS version, with much higher heat. This would be balanced by introducing a "spread" mechanic to the Clan UAC, where continually firing the weapon would cause shots to veer off-center in am manner similar to shooting while jump-jets are activated. This would force the player to decide whether or not to fire more conservatively, or risk missing their shots.

As for Omnimechs, following the fluff would result in its own balance. Instead of having multiple variants to one Omnimech, just have only one version, but increase the needed XP for each mastery by 3-5 times an IS mech. Also, have parts such as the engine, structure, heat sinks, armor and the "hard wired" weapons be locked and unchangeable. This would mean that the Adder would be required to keep the Flamer, or the Hellbringer keep its 3 medium lasers and 2 machine guns. But, to keep them "Omnimechs" remove all weapon-type restrictions on the omni-slots. The only limit that would be inforced would be the number of weapons that you could put in that space, as well as criticals.

An example would be to take the Hellbringer. While you would be stuck with the medium lasers and machine guns, as well as only putting missiles in the missile rack, the arms are free to put whatever kind of weapon you want in, so long as it has the space and criticals. So lets say we have 4 omni-slots in the arms, you could put 4 small lasers, 4 large lasers, a gauss rifle and 3 medium lasers, 2 SRM launchers a UAC 2 and a medium laser, or whatever you wanted.

This would also indirectly balance Clan mechs by placing the majority of their weaponry in the arms, making them much more vulnerable to disarmament. So having a mech like the Direwolf, while owning massive firepower, its ability to fight can be halved by blowing off one arm, since only one weapon, the LRM rack, is placed in a torso.

Also perhaps implementing more Clan-like features into clan gameplay to further differentiate the clans would help balance the Clans. Such as preventing a Clan mech from targeting a mech that an allied unit is already targeting, or that getting kill assists actually subtracts from the total match earnings in order to give an incentive for Clan players to behave more Clan-like, thus providing another indirect balance.





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