27 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Just sharing my condolences for how bad your house got wrecked (in writing quality) when the civil war started.. and the good authors left from non-payment, I guess.

I absolutely dug Steiner before: A house with more wealth & equipment than all the others that couldn't conquer the Inner Sphere primarily because it's Generals and leaders were socialites more interested in the status of being a military leader to go into politics & parties. It was a really need contrast that the house could field far more tonnage, but at far less overall talent, and it gave the house all kinds of character for strengths & weaknesses.

Then Marik took you guys over as the big economic powerhouse being untouched by the Clan invasion, which in the hands of a good writer, could have been a perfect platform to send the Lyran Alliance down a dark path: Economic upheaval has resulted in more dictatorships than any other cause in the real world.

But nope. The second they revealed Katrina as Evvvvvvil ™, they made the whole house go along with her. Turned all of Steiner with the handful of exceptions into a bunch of stark raving mad, Ares convention breaking sociopaths with no regard for not just life but the major rules of warfare in the IS. They wanted Steiner, of all houses, to be the "black" in a black & white showdown.

It's always irked me. Doubly so because Davion, not Steiner, was (in the Hanse era, before the watered down crappiness that was Victor Davion) the one willing to resort to dirty pool more often than most of the other houses and also their military was way more.. enthusastic. The old Davions are more than willing to start any war they think they could win.

They're the ones that should have, if anyone, that should have gotten darker and more brutal, not Steiner. The whole thing is sad because the elements were there for a really good plot and man did they botch it, but you guys really got the worst of it hands down.

Anyway, a bit of a rant, but man they screwed your guys faction up from a plot perspective!

PS: My favorite faction Marik got screwed shortly after with the absolutely dumb way they handled the Jihad, wasting all their golden opportunities. So there's that.

[Sybreed]

Eh, I always thought I should research the houses lore a little before comitting to one. I went to Steiner because of my Germanic ancestry, but the FRR is also one that interested me. Well, thx for putting some thoughts on how Steiner developped over the years ?

[PacerGH]

Not an accurate summary of the Alliance. Katrina was evil, but she did little the other Houses did which was against the Ares Convention.

And she was not a reflection of the House as a whole.

And Marik as the economic powerhouse? No, the Clan invasion only allowed Marik to catch up with the Lyrans, not surpass them.

But hey, keep spinning that Merik propaganda line.

[Victor Morson]

PacerGH, on 29 October 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Not an accurate summary of the Alliance. Katrina was evil, but she did little the other Houses did which was against the Ares Convention.

And she was not a reflection of the House as a whole.

Almost all of the novels, games, and scenarios had the Lyrans lose their minds. They attempted to destroy jumpship creation facilities, bomb civilian populations, the works. She was a cartoon villain and it dragged the majority of the Lyrans with her, with the occasional "opposing POV character" thrown in. It was quite a shame as it was really at odds with how they were before that.

PacerGH, on 29 October 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

And Marik as the economic powerhouse? No, the Clan invasion only allowed Marik to catch up with the Lyrans, not surpass them.

But hey, keep spinning that Merik propaganda line.

No way man. The Lyran Alliance got decimated by the Clan invasion; Marik became the strong economy during that time, because it was untouched and able to mass produce much the technology found on the Lyran line. Several source books all pretty much confirm this; Marik was the strongest faction, far and away, before the Jihad.

.. then the Jihad happened and totally wrecked all the story lines (in particular Marik), but that's a rant for another day. Believe me, I'm not spinning a line, Steiner was my second favorite house. There's no comparing them pre and post civil war.

[R Razor]

Well.............shouldn't be "rules or conventions" anyway when it comes to warfare. The idea is to win, and one method of doing so is to eliminate your enemys ability to produce. If decimating his producers (civilian population) gets that done then so be it..........maybe next time he won't start something he can't finish. GO KATRINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dal10]

while i agree the jihad could have been done better, it wasn't that bad.

they had what 30-40 regiments of troops in the normal militia. not all of that was mechs. basically they built a rasahague sized military or as much as two of them with significantly more industrial capacity. they hired a ton of mercenaries and had a significant portion of the com guards to start with. Every successor state was in the process of recovering from major wars, with fed com wrecked from the civil war, the combine reeling from the ghost bears, the capellans were still recovering from st. Ives, and marik decided to have another civil war.

[DerMaulwurf]

I'd say Pre-FedCom House Steiner is still better.

No Katherine Steiner-Davion no problems.

[Malleus011]

I much prefer the Pre-Clan Inner Sphere to the Fed-Com Civil War era, and I ignore anything that 'happened' after 3058 anyway - but I really agree with the OP. Old school house Steiner was cool. Katrina era was ... considerably less cool.

[Karl Streiger]

Regarding story lines: 3rd Succession Wars - really hope that Catalyst make a try - to clean up that mess.
Look at Morgan Kell - if anybody is able to tell me how this man is able to earn the Order of the Tamar Tiger - before 3016 (and he has that order in 3028) will get a Cookie

Victor Morson, on 30 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

.. then the Jihad happened and totally wrecked all the story lines (in particular Marik), but that's a rant for another day. Believe me, I'm not spinning a line, Steiner was my second favorite house. There's no comparing them pre and post civil war.

They createt other good story lines - and with more and more data available the Jihad is even an extra ordinary plot - necessary to close the gap - to 3145 ...not a problem of the writers but of RL economics (I hate real live)

However the Jihad was not enough to kill the worst story line of all... Victor Steiner Davion - i hate him i hate him - I hate him so much that I the WoB seems like the lesser evil.
I really wished that some of those Great Houses would have been eradicated -> a plot the WoB followed next to the utterly destruction of the Clans.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 November 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Oppi]

Quote

I really wished that some of those Great Houses would have been eradicated

Yeah, me too. Who needs Marik and Liao anyway ?

[dal10]

you are just mad that it is currently davion's turn to sit in the dog house for a while.

also liao soloed the jihad and came out ahead. you guys all worked together and still had to take back your capital planets.

[101011]

I just saw the similiarities between Steiner and the decline of the Roman Empire...thanks, Victor.

[Strum Wealh]

Victor Morson, on 28 October 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Just sharing my condolences for how bad your house got wrecked (in writing quality) when the civil war started.. and the good authors left from non-payment, I guess.

I absolutely dug Steiner before: A house with more wealth & equipment than all the others that couldn't conquer the Inner Sphere primarily because it's Generals and leaders were socialites more interested in the status of being a military leader to go into politics & parties. It was a really need contrast that the house could field far more tonnage, but at far less overall talent, and it gave the house all kinds of character for strengths & weaknesses.

Then Marik took you guys over as the big economic powerhouse being untouched by the Clan invasion, which in the hands of a good writer, could have been a perfect platform to send the Lyran Alliance down a dark path: Economic upheaval has resulted in more dictatorships than any other cause in the real world.

But nope. The second they revealed Katrina as Evvvvvvil ™, they made the whole house go along with her. Turned all of Steiner with the handful of exceptions into a bunch of stark raving mad, Ares convention breaking sociopaths with no regard for not just life but the major rules of warfare in the IS. They wanted Steiner, of all houses, to be the "black" in a black & white showdown.

It's always irked me. Doubly so because Davion, not Steiner, was (in the Hanse era, before the watered down crappiness that was Victor Davion) the one willing to resort to dirty pool more often than most of the other houses and also their military was way more.. enthusastic. The old Davions are more than willing to start any war they think they could win.

They're the ones that should have, if anyone, that should have gotten darker and more brutal, not Steiner. The whole thing is sad because the elements were there for a really good plot and man did they botch it, but you guys really got the worst of it hands down.

Anyway, a bit of a rant, but man they screwed your guys faction up from a plot perspective!

PS: My favorite faction Marik got screwed shortly after with the absolutely dumb way they handled the Jihad, wasting all their golden opportunities. So there's that.

Think the Lyrans got the short straw in the FedCom Civil War?
Have you read Bonfire of Worlds?

[Tannhauser Gate]

101011, on 13 November 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I just saw the similiarities between Steiner and the decline of the Roman Empire...thanks, Victor.

So, in case you may not know, when Jordan Weisman created BT for the western market ,he chose the Fall of the Roman Empire as the analog to the fall of the Star League. So its no coincidence.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 13 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

you are just mad that it is currently davion's turn to sit in the dog house for a while.

also liao soloed the jihad and came out ahead. you guys all worked together and still had to take back your capital planets.

House Liao never comes out ahead.

[pbiggz]

Katherine can burn in hell.

[Moku]

Our current Archon is Melissa Steiner Davion, so I think we're ok for now.

[focuspark]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Well.............shouldn't be "rules or conventions" anyway when it comes to warfare. The idea is to win, and one method of doing so is to eliminate your enemys ability to produce. If decimating his producers (civilian population) gets that done then so be it..........maybe next time he won't start something he can't finish. GO KATRINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Statements like that were made in the late 1930's in Germany. That turned out as a real bright spot in world history didn't it?

[Will9761]

We have a long way off until Steiner becomes evil so I'm not worried about it.

[R Razor]

PinkChickenBoy, on 14 November 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Statements like that were made in the late 1930's in Germany. That turned out as a real bright spot in world history didn't it?

And they damned near won the war...........the point of war is to eliminate your enemies and their ability to resist............if firebombing his cities (or planets in this case) results in the end state of his being unable to resist then that's what needs to be done. Half assed ****** footing around doesn't get the job done, if it did there would still be hotspots around that constantly require attention. Agree with it or not it's the way it is. Now take your thinly veiled "you're a {Godwin's Law}" accusations and stick them where the sun don't shine.