16 replies to this topic

[Spiff]

Ballistics are clearly the weapon of choice in the current meta and I think there is growing agreement that they are a bit unbalanced relative to energy weapons. This is largely because ballistics deliver large amounts of pinpoint damage while lasers tend to spread their damage. Add to that the lower heat of ballistics and you have a recipe or a ballistics heavy meta.

One way to fix this would be to increase the firing rate of ballistics and reduce their damage per shell. The idea would be to net things out such that an AC20 still did 20 damage over 4 seconds, but now that damage would come in a few discrete chunks via a number of shells. This would require more time on target (like lasers), would tend to spread damage more, and would make ammo conservation a more meaningful consideration.

I built the chart below, using the DPS figure and the cool down number to calculate the damage per shell. I've kept DPS same as much as possible.

https://bay178.afx.m...cf2a&oneredir=1

You'll note that the mechanic for LBX and Gauss hasn't changed. Which will tend to make both weapons more attractive as the continue to do pinpoint damage, albeit with their own individual disadvantages. Ultra 5 will be crazy fun to use, but the high rate of fire combined with the jam rate will result in its own set of disadvantages.

We know the game engine can already handle a half second rate of fire for AC2, so the rates of fire shouldn't be too unreasonable.

This change would tend to put most ballistics on the same footing as lasers. While leaving a few weapon classes (LBX, Gauss, PPC) that still do large amounts of point damage but with their own disadvantages (shotgun, charge time, heat).

The only real downside here is that the names of the ballistic weapons get a bit nonsensical, but since we're ditching TT mechanics for Clan anyway, we might as well start now and fix ballistics.

[Slade Deleportas]

I remember playing Mechwarior 3 and the UAC-20 fired 4 or 5 distinct shells that could walk. Even in the canon novels it describes the AC's as firing multiple rounds... So yeah this isn't too far fetched... But sadly it will never happen...

This game needs large sweeping changes to current weapons and core mechanics (heat mainly, collisions as another)

Isn't that what BETA test servers are for? for them to make these huge changes and see what it does? Not just for a little shiny UI 2.0 preview?

I want to further support this game by getting the Clan pack, but IDK anymore... A lot of things are lacking... sigh...

[Green Mamba]

They are unbalanced because every other weapon around them was nerfed.When they are nerfed people will just go something else that gives them the biggest advantage at that current time, its a neverending cycle.and a waste of Development resources

[FerrolupisXIII]

your suggestion is what Battletech Lore implies about how Auto cannons work. its damage per turn, not per shell. so some ac-20's did in fact do 20 per shell, but some did 2 per shell in a 10 shell burst. its slightly harder to work into a FPS style game, as there is no "turn" so the single shell weapon will almost always be better, because it gets its damage off instantly against one component, Vs. a burst that can spread around the enemy mech and takes time to fire.

Ballistics are unbalanced because of how heat scale works. all weapons went from firing once a round (10 seconds) to firing once per whatever the Dev's thought would be good. so many weapons build tremendously more heat (energy weapons) while the already low heat ballistics can fire faster and not worry about shutdown/ having to stop firing to deal with heat.

but thats all been discussed Ad Nauseum, but nothing has changed in months.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ballistics are fine. the rest of the weapons are UP. Fix them and leave Ballistics alone.

[Spawnsalot]

I would be sorely tempted to pay MC/kidneys for burst-fire ACs... Just sayin'...

[Kaldor]

Broken Heat System: check
Bad Hit Detection: check
Under Performing Lasers: check

This is why ACs rule supreme. If we had a working heat system, good hit detection, and lasers had decent heat, ACs would be less of an issue. Right now ACs offer the best bang, so they get used.

[Rhent]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 December 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Ballistics are fine. the rest of the weapons are UP. Fix them and leave Ballistics alone.

No.

The entire weapons system needs a complete rework from the ground up. The DEV's are trying to keep the same tonnage and heat generation from TT, but they are messing with refire rate. A good example of how bad things are damage wise, is the AC/10 to PPC. Both do 10 damage, however the AC/10 refires every 2.5 secs and the PPC refires every 4 secs.

Refire rate is the first problem. Next comes heat. Heat is set up in such a way that the AC will always be the preferred weapon because they essentially generate no heat in comparison to equivalent energy or missile weapons. A low heat cap with fast heat dispersion could fix the current heat mess.

Last comes pinpoint damage. Either the weapons need to be set up where they all stream their damage OR conversion needs to become a factor in game play.

Ballistics need to have a spread added to them for damage, and the same needs to be applied to PPC and Gauss as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 16 December 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

No.

The entire weapons system needs a complete rework from the ground up. The DEV's are trying to keep the same tonnage and heat generation from TT, but they are messing with refire rate. A good example of how bad things are damage wise, is the AC/10 to PPC. Both do 10 damage, however the AC/10 refires every 2.5 secs and the PPC refires every 4 secs.

Refire rate is the first problem. Next comes heat. Heat is set up in such a way that the AC will always be the preferred weapon because they essentially generate no heat in comparison to equivalent energy or missile weapons. A low heat cap with fast heat dispersion could fix the current heat mess.

Last comes pinpoint damage. Either the weapons need to be set up where they all stream their damage OR conversion needs to become a factor in game play.

Ballistics need to have a spread added to them for damage, and the same needs to be applied to PPC and Gauss as well.

Actually I am in agreement with you, an AC10 and a PPC should do the exact damage as each other as should Medium lasers and AC5s.(and they should be half that of PPCs and AC10s. Ballistic Ranges should be x2 as the energy weapons are and so on.

Pin Point damage should only be for Mechs with Advanced Targeting Computers. So Clans first then Inner Sphere in time.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 December 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Rhent]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Actually I am in agreement with you, an AC10 and a PPC should do the exact damage as each other as should Medium lasers and AC5s.(and they should be half that of PPCs and AC10s. Ballistic Ranges should be x2 as the energy weapons are and so on.

The problem now is focused damage. Make all weapons do spread damage like lasers or missiles, and a lot of the problems in the game are better.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 16 December 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The problem now is focused damage. Make all weapons do spread damage like lasers or missiles, and a lot of the problems in the game are better.

I disagree with this. having damage delivered in three styles is much more dynamic than everything being a bunch of DpS. I like the diversity and it shows in my builds using all three weapon types whenever my Mech can have them.

[Rhent]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 December 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

I disagree with this. having damage delivered in three styles is much more dynamic than everything being a bunch of DpS. I like the diversity and it shows in my builds using all three weapon types whenever my Mech can have them.

Dude, I just got over a match where I crossed the hill and I was dead in 2 seconds with the rest of my team. I might as well be playing with 4 PPC stalkers again. Focused damage is killing the game. A lot of people quit over sniper warrior online. A lot more people are quitting over PPC/AC warrior now.

[LordRush]

Now granted, what I am about to say is based on experience with an outdated gaming platform. However, at the same time I remember playing mpbt solaris against other ballistic mechs. I remember how medium mechs in particular would approach a battle using said ballistics.
It wasn't that they caused a whole heck of alot of damage, it was more the ability to take a pilot off his game more than anything. They were more of an annoyance. It would rattle your cockpit so much that you could never get a straight shot in and a good opposing pilot could continuously snap off round after round. Usually, it was the pilot who reached range first and was able to get the first volly's off then do a complete fade (in time) that usually won the opening scrimmage.
Granted, the terrain was much different on mpbt as well. It was a flat canvas vs a full blown environmental map.
I don't know about here but for me, the fun was seeing those particular classes engage first in a battle. It was almost gladiatoresque`
Again, I know I use a reference to a now obsolete gaming platform but I feel there is something to be said for the "performance" of ballistics back then and how effective yet not overpowered they were

Edited by LordRush, 16 December 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[Coralld]

Give AC weapons at least a 2 shell burst so this way there is a high possibility of only having half of their damage being delivered to desirable location. Larger UAC weapons, such as the dreaded 10 and 20 would need to fire say 4 shell burst, this way they keep their very high damage potential over any other AC weapon, but, is less accurate and prevents them from completely dominating basic AC and smaller UAC weapons.

[Father Tork]

I agree with Joseph,
Ballistic have been the same for a long time, the previously better weapons got nerfed, which left them up top. I think it's fair to say they won't be at the top for ever. A requirement of proper weapon balancing is actual telemetry, which takes time to collect.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 16 December 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Dude, I just got over a match where I crossed the hill and I was dead in 2 seconds with the rest of my team. I might as well be playing with 4 PPC stalkers again. Focused damage is killing the game. A lot of people quit over sniper warrior online. A lot more people are quitting over PPC/AC warrior now.

I have played through them all, you died to FOCUSED fire from several 'Mechs? You should be dead is 2 seconds depending on how many Mechs focused on you. I have been playing Atlases and recently a Kintaro, Death happens fast when you blunder into a cluster of enemy. Accept it and you will be better for it.

Have you ever known me to complain cause I died to fast? In a year of play I have actually supported the use of Powerful builds like the 6 PPC stalker. Sure I died t em, but that just made me more mindful of them on the field and to approach them carefully from a flank. Got to a point that I killed them 50% of the time.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 December 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[kapusta11]

The only thing that needs to be fixed is hit registration and broken heat system, ballistics are fine.

Edited by kapusta11, 16 December 2013 - 10:59 AM.